The Genii Forum

I've lost track of the completed phrase that begins, "Eight kings threatened..." It's the card order phrase for setting up the 13 cards in a suit. Could someone help me in completing the phrase? Thanks!

Eight Kings Threatened (three- ten) to save ninety-five lady's from one sick (six) knave (jack).

PSIncerely Yours,
Paul Alberstat

http://www.mindguy.com

It is: "Eight kings threatened to save ninety-five queens for one sick knave" representing the values Eight, King, Three, Ten, Two, Seven, Nine, Five, Queen, Four, Ace, Six, and Jack.

Another one by John Mullholland went: "Jackass ate live tree, king intends to fix several for benign queen" representing the values Jack, Ace, Eight, Five, Three, King, Ten, Two, Six, Seven, Four, Nine and Queen.

The above are usually used with a full deck and suits intermixed in CHaSeD order: Club, Heart, Spade, and Diamond. Both of these mnemonic systematic stacks were devised to circumvent the noticable mathematical stack of Si Stebbins.

Thanks, everybody, for the card order I requested -- and I even got more than I asked for! Thanks again! :)

The 8-Kings stack has been published in Hoffmanns Modern Magic allready and must have been devised earlier than the mathematical stack of Si Stebbins.
But, what i try to figure out since i first read that magic sentence: Why is it a threat to save all these ladys to care for the poor knave? Maybe dit i get the word "sick" wrong...

Hi Franz,

It is "Sick", unless it's easier to change to "Six Knaves" for your memory.

Thank you for pointing out the reference in Hoffmanns' Modern Magic. That was first published in 1876. Si Stebbins was born in 1867 which doesn't give him much time to invent and popularize his famous stack. I was always under the impression that his mathematical stack was first followed by the mnemonic stacks later. My investigation into this has revealed nothing. Right now I will agree with your astute findings and say "Eight Kings" was first until the history of the Stebbins stack is factually assessed.

Does anyone know the history of the Stebbins Stack?

Thanks again Franz,

Steve

... and it's not "ninety-five ladies", but "nine fine ladies".

The CHaSeD order is that most commonly seen in American books, but the SHoCkeD order has the advantage of also supporting the common numeric mnemonic for suits:
Spades = 1 (one point)
Hearts = 2 (two lobes)
Clubs = 3 (three leaves)
Diamonds = 4 (four points)

... Doug

But it IS 95 in most of the texts I have seen. And it is also "threatened to save" in most texts, though I have seen it as "threatened to sell" in some, which seems nuts as it is less like "seven" and does not rhyme with "knave." But we all stand to be corrected. What is your source, or, even better, how far back does this thing go? I've never tried to track this one down. I used the "save" word as a password clue once in The Little Egypt Gazette and accidentally stumped some people, as different versions are floating around.

If you're just looking for the oldest recorded version, you'll want to use:

Eight kings threatened to save
Ninety-five ladies for one sick knave

This at least is how it appeared in Modern Magic (1876), though I know there are several earlier references (back to at least 1805, in William Frederick Pinchbeck's The Expositor).

But wouldn't you agree that "nine fine" is an improvement over "ninety-five" (which has no mnemonic value whatsoever; you just have to remember it)? I don't recall who first made this advancement, but it's been around for at least 30-40 years.

... Doug

Originally posted by ddyment:


But wouldn't you agree that "nine fine" is an improvement over "ninety-five" (which has no mnemonic value whatsoever; you just have to remember it)?

Ninety-five has a better rhythm. Why is remembering "fine" means "five" better than remembering "five" means "five"????

Ninety-five works better for me.

Bill asked

Why is remembering "fine" means "five" better than remembering "five" means "five"????

For the same reason that "save" is used in place of "seven", "sick" instead of "six", etc. If you're happy just remembering the numbers, then you don't need the mnemonic; most people who wish to use a mnemonic, though, will prefer the one with the greatest mnemonic value.

Obviously, individuals should use what they prefer (probably the version they first learned); there's no reason that everyone has to agree on a common one!

... Doug

So the suits and colors don't seem so regular there are ways to randomize the suits and colors. If the card is 'even' you follow the usual C-H-S-D order for suits, and if 'odd' you do a variant - switching to same color but opposite suit. A five of spades would be followed by the Queen of Clubs, see ? It takes the curse off of the alternating colors. Charles Reynolds told me about this, which can also be used with other stacks too, but I don't know whose idea it is or how old. Regards, Gregg

Thanks for that info, Greg. I think that it might fly by a lot of magicians using 8 Kings or even Mullholland"s version.

Here is the first description of the Eight Kings stack in The Expositor published in 1805 (page 96):

Eight Kings tried to save nine fine Ladies for one sick Jack.

Which are thus explained:—

eight is eight.
Kings are Kings.
tried is tray.
ten remember as coming between the tray and deuce.
to is deuce.
Save is seven.
nine is nine.
fine is five.
Ladies are Queens.
for is four.
one is ace.
sick is fix.
Jack is Jack or Knave.

Now recoiled that clubs and hearts, and hearts and clubs are together; likewise that spades and diamonds, and diamonds and spades are together.

I needed a simple stack that could be learned in a few minutes for a trick I had been working on. My objective was to create a stack that favored fishing. Stacks are usually constructed to know exactly where or what a particular card is. Fishing is a progressive narrowing of the search, so a fishing stack’s objective is to start with knowing generally what or where a selected card is and then allow a drill down to its specifics. For my no-memory memorized stack, "Nomonica," I devised this stack:

Aqua threatens fate, Heaven trix Nate for judging Tokyo.

AQua Ace Queen first letters in “ace” and “queen.”

THREaTENs 3 10 Sounds like “three” and “ten.”

FATE 5 8 first letter & sounds like

Heaven 7 rhymes with “seven”

Trix 6 rhymes with “six”

Nate 9 first letter in “nine” (ignote the “ate”).

For 4 sounds like “four.”

Judging Jack first letter

TOKyo 2 K looks like and first letter

Chris Aguilar came up with the very memorable:
"Aqua threatens fate, Heaven nixes Nate for joyfully toking." “Toking” besides providing a great image, sounds more like "Two-King" than "Tokyo" does.

The stack has a lot of easily memorized attributes which are explained in the "Nomonica" manuscript.

And don't forget "Nine Jacks hate severe Queens for five threatened to axe sick Kings" . Axe is Ace. This is the poetry used for the randomizing colors thing. It spreads out the colors better. "Eight kings" bunches the colors up in places.