A question to pros about magic theory books

[erlandish]

Andrew has not bothered to clarify his position on what sort of business he wants to do so we can further refine our advice to him...

Sorry for neglecting to respond to that. My answer is simply that, for this thread, I'm not looking for advice. Even when it comes to the question of these books, I've already read them all so whatever benefit (or damage) is likely to come from absorbing them has already started to come to fruition.

It's my hope to explore the topic at hand -- whether or not magic theory books have contributed to the professional development of pro magicians.

[Glenn Bishop]

I read the remark as a snotty response to a sincere effort by Glenn to help a wannabe pro. I too have read it several times and don't read it any other way. Further to that, Cugel did not take the opportunity to clarify or explain the context of his remark when he could have.

Andrew has not bothered to clarify his position on what sort of business he wants to do so we can further refine our advice to him. He also states that Cugel is a professional magician. Perhaps we have a different definition of "professional," but since Cugel is anonymous, he can claim to be anything he wants.

Glenn has been more than generous on this thread, handing out insights it's taken him years to develop.

Cugel wants to argue. I have no interest in arguing my position for reasons already stated. Cugel may find it entertaining. I find it a bore. I have far better things to occupy my time than exchange jibes with an unknown quantity.

I think I've spent enough time on this thread.

I agree David - By the way I think that you have also been more than generous with your advice on this thread. Thanks for the kind words!

[swamy]

If an individual would like to structure themselves to function at the level of MASTER(one level above EXPERT) then theory becomes important along with experience.At the MASTER level the individual has capabilities of an inventor, contributes a lot to the domain(magic), acquire capabilities of perceiving unity in diversity for e.g. correlating many effects, abilities of perceiving any aspect from a Top down Down perspectve etc.

Knowledge of theory from books depends on how theory is explained by the author.

Theory is always good, but how it is put forward before the readers is very important.

[Jonathan Townsend]

re: Knowledge of theory from books depends on how theory is explained by the author. Theory is always good, but how it is put forward before the readers is very important.

That presumes reading skills and some ability to self examine as one explores "how would you know that..." type questions.

Not gonna comment on the dogma (this is type discussions or anecdotal evidence) masquerading as theory (hypothesis-test-discuss-refine-test...) for now.

As to whether it most benefits our craft to pander to those who aspire to titles like "master" or "guru" and secrets rather than tested working knowledge - I suggest that it does not - as we may well wind up with titled "masters" who are un-comically egotistical in performance and "gurus" who treat character congruence/consistency issues as somehow abstract and removed from what they do.

[swamy]

a.Individuals will adapt to the structure the author has projected in the book. Authors have to ensure that structure of the theory book is complete. If the theory is incomplete or in bits and pieces then readers will find it difficult. Books on conventional subjects is an example.

b. My intention to mention the word "EXPERT" and 'MASTER' is to convey that there is more than just experience. Knowledge gained over a period of time needs to be organised, and also not to be lost. Theory will helpful here.

[Jonathan Townsend]

I admire the both the positivism and positive intent or your presumptions - and while they are entirely "theoretical" at this point I hope testing and refinement in the real world leaves both you and your ideas in a good place in conjuring.

Yes - that presupposes those reading skills and being able to find the pony under that pile in our marketplace.

[swamy]

There is nothing new in this whole aspect. World over organistions go on debating the issue of KNOWLEDGE MANAGEMENT and make the whole aspect so complicated and forget SIMPLICTY. Loss occurs.

[Jonathan Townsend]

And some will describe the wheel in terms of an effect and try to sell you a lever as the method. So what?

We've had remarkable success with the scientific method and theory over the last few hundred years - even put some stuff on the moon thanks to that sort of structure and open dialog.

Perhaps conjuring will adopt what's been proved useful elsewhere in that regard while avoiding some of the social pitfalls that happen whenever money and belief affect large groups.

[swamy]

My intention to join this thread was to convey that THEORY is good and it helps. It is the individual to take the benefit from theory. That's it.

[Cugel]

There is nothing new in this whole aspect. World over organistions go on debating the issue of KNOWLEDGE MANAGEMENT and make the whole aspect so complicated and forget SIMPLICTY. Loss occurs.

I think there is a lot of merit in what you write. Do you have some non-magic texts you are drawing upon in your observations?

[swamy]

Your observation is correct.

There are many texts which we feel is non-magic. If we incorporate or relate those non-magic text in the domain of magic there will be benefits. Initially there will be debates. To overcome that heat needs unshaken CONVICTION.

Those that separate between magic text and non-magic text needs to be reviwed regularly. This is important in today's dynamic environment.

It will be interesting to start a new thread on NON-MAGIC TEXT into magic. If there is an interest we can start.

[swamy]

Individual magic experiences are knowledge stored in our brain. Some of these knowledge are used by oneself at a later date or may be useful for others.
a. How to ensure that experiences are not forgotten ?
b. How to organise the collected knowledge/experience ?
c. How to use the organised knowlege ?
d. Lastly how to review regularly the knowledge with the market conditions ?

Theory helps in all these aspects.