20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

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MagicbyAlfred
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20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby MagicbyAlfred » November 21st, 2015, 1:08 pm

Well, I took the plunge today. Yes, after much internal debate, I ordered 20th Century Panties. (No, not for my personal wardrobe, but rather for my act). Although I have been almost exclusively a professional close up magician for many years, I have gotten many requests to do stand up shows. I have finally realized that, in declining, I have been avoiding the opportunity to have loads of fun, entertain lots of people I might otherwise never have met, make important contacts leading to more shows and referrals, and yes, as base as it may sound, generate capital. So I have decided to put together a stand up show. (So far, I have been working up a cut and restored rope routine, a book test routine, a magic square after obtaining a w_ll_t p _ _ k of a thought of number, and of course, the Professor's Nightmare and an ID card routine are bound to play well).

I love to incorporate comedy into my magic, and so in addition to being a routine that would not require years of practice, I thought 20th Century Silks to Panties would play quite well, depending, of course, on how, where, and for whom it was presented. (e.g.. not when children are present, or at a religious or feminist event, etc.) Further, it would not be in keeping with my style to have a woman tuck the knotted silk into the front of her skirt or slacks; I would imagine that some performers can pull this off because of their persona and performing style; but personally for me, it seems that it would be in poor taste. That being said, my working premise is that I would use a carefully selected, good-natured male volunteer for the routine, having him tuck the knotted silks into his trousers. In that situation,the incongruity of the panties popping out between the silks, strikes me as one which would evoke hilarity. But i want to call upon the wisdom of fellow Forum members to air their opinions on the 20th Century Panties effect, and I would sincerely welcome any advice and presentational ideas, including any do's and don'ts.

brianarudolph
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Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby brianarudolph » November 21st, 2015, 2:13 pm

Why risk embarrassing any volunteer? If I were to ever incorporate the effect in this instantiation in my act, I'd do it on myself or not at all. Let them laugh at me! It's intended to be more of a comedy bit than a magic demonstration anyway, so why risk bad feelings from anyone? Of course you still have to do it for the proper audiences as you noted.

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Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby performer » November 21st, 2015, 2:23 pm

Dearie me! I cannot possibly approve. There is no place for vulgarity in magic for ANY audience. You are betraying the art. Besides it is terribly low class.

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby MagicbyAlfred » November 21st, 2015, 3:02 pm

Now I am starting to wonder if I wasted my money? I didn't think that performing it with a good natured male volunteer would be anything but good fun, and I did not view it as anything but mildly risqué in today's day and age. But this is why I posted - to get the opinions of my peers whom I respect. I certainly do not want to come across as "low class" or "vulgar." Today I resurrected my old Malini Egg Bag, and I am sure I can coax plenty of magic and comedy from a well-constructed routine, without risking offending anyone. Are there any opinions out there that might differ from Brian's or Performer's?
Last edited by MagicbyAlfred on November 21st, 2015, 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 21st, 2015, 3:02 pm

Tricks like the 20th Century and Panties have very few acceptable venues. One might be bachelor parties, where embarrassment is the name of the game. Or if you find yourself working in a strip club, that would be a fine venue.

Embarrassing the crap out of spectators is no longer seen as acceptable.
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MagicbyAlfred
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Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby MagicbyAlfred » November 21st, 2015, 3:05 pm

Richard wrote:

"Tricks like the 20th Century and Panties have very few acceptable venues. One might be bachelor parties, where embarrassment is the name of the game. Or if you find yourself working in a strip club, that would be a fine venue.
Embarrassing the crap out of spectators is no longer seen as acceptable."

Duly noted - thanks!

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Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby performer » November 21st, 2015, 4:53 pm

Apart from the vulgarity aspect (after all I am a psychic Reverend and holy man of the cloth) there is the ridicule factor. I have always believed a volunteer should be your guest on stage and should be treated with great respect.

After all you might pick the wrong person who will become offended. In fact you could accidentally pick a right old misery just like me and then you will be in real trouble!

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Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby performer » November 21st, 2015, 9:31 pm

Come to think of it I am not sure Richard is right about the trick being suitable in a strip club. About 48 years ago before I became a man of the cloth I worked in a strip club for three months. I was told that I would top the bill which wasn't that impressive since the other two acts were both strippers one of whom was a man but nobody knew. Oddly enough he/she was better looking than the female stripper.

One night Billy Mc'Comb came in and dragged me to the club he was working and I remember Al Koran being there. A few nights later he brought Jay Marshall to the strip club to watch me work. Afterwards the owner asked me "did they give you any advice?" When I said "no" he replied, "what a pair of bastards!"

However, I found out later through the grapevine that Jay did not approve of me getting someone up to help. He felt that members of the audience of a strip club wanted to stay anonymous and would not want to be singled out and brought up on stage. Especially this particular seedy strip club in Soho.

I just shrugged my shoulders when I heard it since it was the only act I knew and had to do it or nothing else. I was working it at all the other night clubs in London without this particular problem. Of course the other clubs weren't strip clubs. I also reasoned that David Berglas had worked the same strip club a few weeks before and I happen to know he used audience volunteers too. I bet Marshall never criticised him.

Of course I know the mind boggles at imagining David Berglas working a strip club. I expect he topped the bill too just like me with the same two strippers. However, I think his presence there was a result of him being a personal friend of the owner of the strip joint.

Still, the point I am making is that the pantie trick wouldn't be much good in a strip club either as it uses audience participation. I bet Jay Marshall wouldn't approve anyway.

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Krenz
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Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby Krenz » November 22nd, 2015, 4:10 am

That doesn't sound like a criticism that Jay would have had. And if he had criticism of your act, and felt that you would benefit, he would have told you to your face.

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Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby performer » November 22nd, 2015, 6:19 am

I know for a fact that he didn't like the idea of picking out someone to help and drawing attention to them at a strip club. And I know for a fact that he remarked on my doing it to someone else. It makes sense when you think about it. In those days (and perhaps even now) it was very tut-tut to be seen in a strip club. I noticed that I could hardly see the audience and the place was as quiet as a mouse unlike the other rowdy night clubs I worked in London at the time. I think in retrospect that he was right but that was the act that I had at the time and I certainly wasn't going to change it for that one venue. I don't think it would have made a lot of difference anyway and if I went back in time I wouldn't change my policy.

After all, if it was good enough for David Berglas to use audience participation there it was good enough for me.

Incidentally the act consisted entirely of card tricks that could be seen from a distance.

And I never spoke a word to either Jay Marshall or Billy McComb on the night they were in together. They just came in to spy, never spoke a word to me and left. Simple as that. Billie did introduce me to him before I went on saying, "this is Jay Marshall". Jay didn't say a word to me and Billy himself only spoke to me for about 30 seconds.

I also heard later that he thought I could use more comedy in the act. Again he never said it to me directly. Perhaps he was right but I would defy the greatest comedian on earth to get a laugh out of those businessmen quietly sitting, often alone, in the dark. The place was as quiet as a mouse. I did get applause but that was the only sound from the audience.

I was irritated at the time but then I realised that at the time of the criticism I was probably getting more professional work than Jay himself who by then was more or less finished in showbusiness since I heard "he married a magic shop". Sure he got some work at magic conventions where he got progressively more awful over the years. He was a brilliant act when I first saw him and was brilliant for a few years afterwards but then he started to get less brilliant as the years went by which is a perfectly natural state of affairs when you think about it.

I call this the "dropping details" syndrome and I discussed this in my most wondrous e-book "The Wit and Wisdom of Mark Lewis". That little article I wrote had a profound effect on a lot of people. It explains why a lot of formerly brilliant performers become crappier and crappier over the years.

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Krenz
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Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby Krenz » November 22nd, 2015, 6:04 pm

That still does't sound like Jay. He always offered up his thoughts to anyone worth speaking with. Given that your information came secondhand, I'd take it with a grain of salt.

I'm sorry to hear that you are afflicted with this "dropping details" syndrome. Writing in your e-book journal will likely help you in grieving over the loss of your facilities. Good luck on your journey.

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Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby performer » November 22nd, 2015, 8:14 pm

Krenz wrote:That still does't sound like Jay. He always offered up his thoughts to anyone worth speaking with. Given that your information came secondhand, I'd take it with a grain of salt.

I'm sorry to hear that you are afflicted with this "dropping details" syndrome. Writing in your e-book journal will likely help you in grieving over the loss of your facilities. Good luck on your journey.


Krenz, my boy. You are being impertinent and I do not approve. You are in the presence of one of the world's greatest close up magicians and it would behoove you to show some respect to your elders and betters. As I have frequently stated I never attack anyone unless they attack me first. And I must inform you that I am rather better at attacking than you will ever be.

I suggest you curtail your rudeness otherwise I will be compelled to reprimand you most severely. Now do sit up straight and pay attention and I will attempt to educate you on these matters. Alas I fear that you will be an incompetent student. However, I will try my very best.

First I don't give a stuff whether you think it sounds like Jay or not. I can assure you that your opinion is of no importance whatsoever. Mine always is. I KNOW he said it and I have already stated it was correct advice. It did indeed come second hand and the lady that delivered the information was Betty Davenport. I expect you may have heard of her. Are you calling her a liar?

Still, you do not appear to me to be a member of MENSA to put it politely so I had better give you a little more information as you appear to be a little slow on the uptake. A few decades later I happened to be staying at a guest house at some British magic convention or other. Jay Marshall was there and I discussed the matter with him in person and he confirmed that he said it. I was surprised he even remembered the incident but I have been told by those who knew him that he had a phenomenal memory. And so do I and I am in a better position to know what went on than you are.

The only facilities that appear to be lost are your own. Up to now I have not been rude to you so it would behoove you not to be rude to me. I do expect an improvement in your future behavior. Now go and stand in the corner.

As for the Wit and Wisdom book perhaps you would care to read this review of it by David Ben. He mentions that Jay Marshall would probably agree with me that he was past his "sell by" date and in fact he admitted this to various people. When people asked him "when is the best time to see your act?" he said "twenty years ago"

viewtopic.php?t=21898

And here is what James Munton, a very successful Texas magician said about the book on this very forum:

"You should know my arguing with Mark Lewis is good-natured. He does indeed possess a large amount of experience and knowledge due to his advanced age. But in all seriousness, I have learned a lot from him and I think his Wit & Wisdom book should be required reading for anyone who wants to perform magic."

The dropped details article is one of the most important pieces of information that has ever been written for magicians. I know the author personally and I agree with every word he said. I may or may not reprint the article on here depending on what mood I am in. I think some of you, particularly from the lower working class areas of Los Angeles, can learn something from it.

The said e-book can be purchased here:
http://www.marklewisentertainment.com/h ... cians.html

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Krenz
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Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby Krenz » November 22nd, 2015, 9:47 pm

Lewis, my troll, respect is earned, and you have yet to earn any from me. You aren't worth my time. Spewing rhetoric and bile is your habit, and it is a vile one. Sound familiar? I could go on in this manner, and it is perhaps what you want. Let's clear away the troll-type language that you seem to thrive on.

I hope that you realize that you aren't helping the communities that you scream for attention in. When you do share something of value, you undercut it with inflammatory commentary, apparently for your own amusement.

I don't know many forums where the communities feel the need to openly call out troll behavior, or worse, outright ban them. You have accomplished this time and time again, and it is sad to witness. If you think that people are rude to you first, you should read your own words with a clear mind. You make off-subject comments designed to be antagonistic and then try to hide them under dubious humor.

I've spent a lot of time with the greatest close-up magicians of our time, and I am grateful for it. All of them share certain characteristics, in my experience. They are kind, compassionate and inspirational. Even the ones that hide behind sarcasm have a heart of gold underneath their gruff exterior. I don't get any of that from you. Not just in your responses to me, but in your general style of communication. Every one has a bad day now and then, but you consistently go overboard. I am not sure what your intent is, but if it is a positive one, your signal is lost amid your noise. That is raw, honest feedback Mark. Are you listening?

Well, I've spent enough time trying to get through to you. You have a choice. you can attack me, fling insults and attempt to rationalize it all as being beneficial and/or witty. Or you can drop the façade, truly reflect about why so many people don't like your behavior, and work on becoming a better person. Try being nicer—it pays great dividends. Then you'll have my (and others') respect, not for claiming to be one's "better" but by actuallty being so.

With honesty, kindness and compassion,

Jim

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Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby performer » November 22nd, 2015, 10:34 pm

It appears that my fellow egomaniac is getting a trifle excited. I have often noticed that the only people who get annoyed with me are those with terribly high opinions of themselves. The first thing they can think of by way of retaliation is to yell "TROLL" always seeming to forget that they are the ones who started the rudeness in the first place. Not a terribly original retort of course and it seems to forget that one man's troll is another man's ironic genius. I must say that I prefer the latter definition than the former.

Now he says that I am not worth his time yet in his last post he devotes about 300 thousand words on me.

He has NOT associated with the greatest close up magicians of all time. I know the ones he is talking about and they are all highly over rated. They all talk too much, get over excited or have the personalities of dial tones. Dearie me no. The best ones are all dead and in fact I don't feel terribly well myself.

"Kind, compassionate and inspirational?" Not really. Elite sea of mediocrity would be a far better description. Still, I mustn't be too harsh on my fellow egomaniac. I do understand why he feels that he has to defend his ex-employer. It does bias his approach a trifle. What he calls inflammatory I call the TRUTH. After all if Jay could criticise me then naturally I am entitled to criticise him. And the difference is that he won't be offended in the slightest at the moment for obvious reasons.

BE A BETTER PERSON!!!!! I am a GRAFTER! We don't believe in that sort of thing!!!! Dearie me, my boy----you really have a lot to learn!!! However I do thank you for giving me the best laugh of the day!!!

I don't WANT your "respect"! Has that not occurred to you? I am not presenting a "facade". I am like this all the time in real life! Ask anyone who knows me! You seem to be under the delusion that I want people to "like" me. I don't give a stuff whether they do or not! In fact I prefer it if they don't! With me what you see is what you get.

The plain truth of the matter is that I am expressing my genuine opinions in a very frank manner. I am entitled to do that and I shall continue to do so. It is not deliberately intended to inflame but I don't particularly care if it does. I tell the truth about magic the way I see it and I am very rarely wrong. Alas sometimes the truth hurts. I often see that the emperor is wearing no clothes and I feel I have to point it out. No other ulterior motive. No intention to inflame. The inflammation is merely a by product of my opinion-no more-no less.

And I suggest you practice what you preach. Again you were the FIRST person to throw an insult on this thread. You seem to be able to give it out but are not able to take it in return.

Now do try to improve yourself and try not to be rude in the future, there's a good chap. You won't win with me, I promise you. If you don't like what I have to say then just ignore me. Easy, isn't it?

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Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby performer » November 22nd, 2015, 11:04 pm

And now to be more constructive here is a link to the "Dropped Details" article.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... &forum=297

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Krenz
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Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby Krenz » November 25th, 2015, 1:20 am

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performer
Posts: 1982
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby performer » November 25th, 2015, 5:08 am

How very odd. But I do thank you for providing a picture of your brain cells.

Leo Garet
Posts: 247
Joined: March 14th, 2015, 9:14 am
Favorite Magician: Nobody In Particular

Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby Leo Garet » November 25th, 2015, 8:36 am

Krenz wrote:






Well, that was helpful.

observer
Posts: 247
Joined: August 31st, 2014, 5:32 am
Favorite Magician: Harry Kellar - Charlie Miller - Paul Rosini - Jay Marshall
Location: Chicago

Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby observer » November 25th, 2015, 10:55 pm

Didn't Marlo work up a number of methods for the bra & panties effect? Let me just check my copy of Arcade Dreams, I think he has a no-gimmick version there ...

performer
Posts: 1982
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby performer » November 26th, 2015, 12:39 am

That reminds me. I have just come across some information and possibly even evidence that JB.Bobo was really the inventor of the Invisible Deck presentation rather than Eddie Fields whom I always associated with it. Mind you I have also seen better evidence that Annemann had something to do with it before Bobo. The Bobo evidence is from 1947 and the Annemann evidence is from 1935. However, to my great relief there is no mention of panties in either presentation.

I don't really care who invented the bloody thing in the same way I don't really care who wrote the Erdnase book. However, I have a slight interest in the matter although I certainly won't lose any sleep over it.

I am just wondering if any of the nitpicking historians on here have any information on the subject.

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 512
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Santa Rosa, California

Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby MagicbyAlfred » November 26th, 2015, 1:45 am

I feel like I'm at least a fairly imaginative individual, but I must admit that the connection between the Invisible Deck and the 20th Century Silk to Panties trick kind of escapes me...

Was it Shakespeare who wrote in Hamlet, "Methinks thou doth protest too much?"

performer
Posts: 1982
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby performer » November 26th, 2015, 2:12 am

There is no connection whatsoever. I just prefer to discuss more wholesome material. I do not approve of panties magic.

webbmaster
Posts: 76
Joined: November 30th, 2016, 11:38 am
Favorite Magician: richard Kaufmann

Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby webbmaster » May 1st, 2017, 11:53 am

A very similar trick, the one that starts out as a torn and restored tissue trick then turns into a fancy hat for a girl child, and the pieces from the torn tissue, wadded up, make the 'flower' on the hat or bonnet...this trick is very useful for kid shows and family shows. Much better than the other (unless in the strip club or bachelor party venues).

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 512
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Santa Rosa, California

Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby MagicbyAlfred » May 1st, 2017, 12:32 pm

I have heeded the admonitions of our honored members as to the impropriety and questionable taste of performing the trick.

Rather than waste the money I had spent on purchasing it, I have found that they make very functional apparel - I was getting low anyway...

performer
Posts: 1982
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: 20th Century Panties Presentational Ideas

Postby performer » May 1st, 2017, 12:35 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:I have heeded the admonitions of our honored members as to the impropriety and questionable taste of performing the trick.

Rather than waste the money I had spent on purchasing it, I have found that they make very functional apparel - I was getting low anyway...


Or you could just put it up in the next magic club auction. There is bound to be some daft "magician" who will buy it.


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