Best chop cup?

[Guest]

Originally posted by David Groves:

Originally posted by Thomas Wayne:
[b] ...also, the innovative (and patent-pending) magnet system involved is, to my knowledge, the only NEW idea to be applied to the chop cup in several decades....

In reading the instructions, I seem to recall that "the flick" was written up as new and an invention of Mr. Wayne's. However, in viewing Paul Wilson's "The Restaurant Act" video, which was produced in 2001 but developed well before then, I found a nearly identical move that was described in the following way:

"This isn't mine, it's an old chop cup technique."

Is "the flick" new? [/b]

No, Dave, you are mistaken. I do not claim the Flick to be my invention anywhere in the literature that accompanies the Coffee Chop, or in any other written or verbal communication. In the instruction booklet that accompanies the Coffee Chop I state a “new move” is used to dislodge the ball; I think it is clear within the context of the instructions that I am referring to a move that will be new to the user. Of course you may wish to misconstrue that, but nowhere in the booklet do I claim the move to be MY invention.

The genesis of the move dates back much farther than you are aware - at least several decades - and can be found in Mark Wilson's 1979 "Chop Cup Book", within Earl Nelson's routine. In Earl's routine he uses a shaking motion to dislodge the ball, and justifies the accompanying rattling noise of the ball as signifying the exact time when the ball “arrives” under the cup. While this is very different from the Flick, it is the first I became aware of the idea of dislodging a ball by some means other than banging it down on a flat surface.

The basic problem with Chop cups in general is the relationship between the magnetic attraction of the ball to the inside of the cup, and the force required to dislodge the ball. With all standard cups this problem is addressed by approaching that fine line between a weak-enough attraction to dislodge easily, and TOO weak (which results in an unreliable cup).

I set about to resolve this dilemma by examining the various chop cup mechanics – steel cup shim with magnetic ball, steel ball shims with magnetic cup and magnetic balls with magnetic cup. All suffered from the too-weak/too-strong problem, and had other negative issues as well. For example, most chop cups come with two balls, one that is attracted to the cup and one that is not. This means the user must somehow keep track of which ball is which. Also, the “special” ball cannot be set on top of the inverted cup during performance without the likelihood of the magnetic attraction being obvious to the audience; this precludes many of the standard cups-and-ball move such as the Tip-Over Load.

After much experimentation I discovered a completely new approach to the problem. With my system the ball and the cup are both magnetic, but in a very special way. In fact, BOTH balls are magnetic. However, the balls are only attracted to the inside of the cup. They are not attracted to each other and they are not attracted to the outside of the cup. This resolves all the major complaints I have about traditional Chop cups and allows for more natural and normally motivated handling.

Incidentally, the Flick does not require an “unnatural shove”, or does it require contacting the surface with the “leading edge first”. In fact, it is not necessary to contact the table at all, a feature I always demonstrate when showing the system at conventions. I often use the Coffee Chop on the palm of my hand - and the spectator's hand - without using a table. In no case is it ever necessary to contact a flat surface in order to dislodge the ball.

It is this specific design, orientation and application of the magnets system in my Coffee Chop that is new, and is my original and proprietary invention.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

[John Clarkson]

The reason companies spend so much on advertising and public relations is because most of us make our purchasing decisions not only on the basis of the quality of the goods, but also on our perception of the purveyor. Although you might not like the specific application of it, Dave merely stated (a bit inartfully, perhaps) that well-accepted general principle.

Back to chop cups. I have been using Jim Riser's micro chop for a while now and think the copper one is perfect for an in-the-hands routine. The ball dislodges with just the right amount of energy without the need for slams or gyrations. In addition, the balance and rim on the cup allow it to invert automatically for a load when you lift it from the palm of your hand. It practically loads itself. (What a great change from the old Rings 'N Things mini Don Alan chop chop!) I'm looking forward to seeing Jim's next generation of chop cups.

[Steve V]

Does this mean a 'nice' guy with a poor product would get good reviews?
Steve V

[Brad Henderson]

I can't comment on Thomas's cups as I have not worked with them, however I can comment on other facets of his craftsmanship and it has all been of the highest caliber. So, regardless of personal opinions of the man, I feel his work speaks very highly for itself.

[John Clarkson]

Originally posted by Steve V:
Does this mean a 'nice' guy with a poor product would get good reviews?
Steve V

It means that, assuming quality is acceptable, a nice guy is more likely than a not-so-nice guy to get good reviews. I suspect some clown has written a doctoral dissertation on the exact calculus. It would not surprise me if a very nice guy with a marginally inferior product got better reviews than an S.O.B. with a marginally superior product.

[Guest]

I'm stunned by how much more I'm earning in tips by using the advice offered me by the great fair magician Jeff Martin:

Instead of using a chop cup ball, crumple up a $5 bill and switch in a duplicate $5 bill with a magnet or steel wool inside. You'll get a lot more tips that way.

And I am. Once again this weekend, it was double my normal take. I may never use the regular balls, and thus, may never learn the Ron Wilson routine. (The crumpled bill is hard to use with a shot glass: It expands too much.)

[Guest]

The late Jerry Camaro manufactured a chop cup for bartenders. He published his routine in a Magic Menu (Thanks to Jim Sisti!). The cup was a cocktail shaker, and came in two sizes. Jerry used fake olives as the balls and had a Jumbo olive as a final load, allowing a really corny line at the end (I love this trick - pronounced (Oil luve this trick..) phewww! But, the idea is worth looking at. When Jery did it behind the bar it killed!

In fact, though I don't have the material in front of me, I remember him producing the Jumbo Olive, and then reaching under the bar to get a Jumbo Martini Glass, dropping the olive in it for a REALLY big drink. The impression the audience is left with is the chop cup routine, finishing with the production of the jumbo olives and then the production of a giant martini, though the glass was just brought out from under the bar, not magically produced. In the retelling I have heard spectators describe this as Jerry producing the giant martini, fully made, with giant olive in it, as the ending of the effect. Ah, the wonders of the human mind, and it's ability to MIS-recall events...

Best, PSC

PS - Jerry also borrowed a bill, and used it as the ball, when he was really hustling the tips...

[C. Hampton]

Does anyone know where to get the fake olives?

[Guest]

Mark Jenest used fake olives, too, in his Jiggernaut routine. They weren't chopped, of course. Chris Smith the Magic Smith would know where to get them.

[Guest]

Originally posted by David Groves:

Originally posted by Thomas Wayne:
[b]...It is this specific design, orientation and application of the magnets system in my Coffee Chop that is new, and is my original and proprietary invention....

[...]
Besides, coffee cups break; leather cups don't. [/b]

Dave,

ANY prop will break if you mistreat it. Presumably most intelligent performers will protect their props from undue stress and therefore avoid such a problem. Most certainly a leather Chop cup must also be protected from conditions that might mar or damage it, no? In any event, the cup I use is manufactured by a company that specializes in restaurant-grade serving ware, and I have seen these cups get knocked around pretty hard in restaurants without any damage whatsoever.

More importantly, a ceramic coffee mug will blend in nicely at virtually ANY restaurant or bar. Several weeks ago, when you apparently knew almost nothing about Chop cups and Chop cup routines, you opened this topic by saying that you wanted to learn about these things. You said that you performed regularly at a Mexican-themed restaurant, and while I seriously doubt that this restaurant serves their coffee in leather cups I can easily understand why you would choose to use such a cup for your restaurant job.

However, I designed my Coffee Chop to be suitable for the vast majority of restaurants, bars, trade shows and hospitality suites that are NOT Mexican-themed. Under such conditions I wanted a cup that would not look “prop-ish”, or out of place and could be used on hard surfaces – such as restaurant tables or bar tops – without having to bang down with the cup to dislodge the ball. In that effort the Coffee Chop has succeeded beyond all my expectations.

As a side note I might mention that I also created a tiny component that can be balled up into a [duplicate] bill and will allow the bill to function in an identical manner to the Coffee Chop ball[s]. As has already been pointed out, if one accepts tips in their performance, this makes that aspect possible.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

[Richard Kaufman]

"While I dont personally solicit (or accept) tips from an audience, I realize that some must do so to make ends meet ... "
Thomas, that was really an unnecessary and snide remark.

[Guest]

Gregory Wilson does a good chop cup routine with "Kiss Off" and at the end you get to give out Hershey Kisses to everyone at the table, so that's always a plus! :)

[Guest]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
"While I don't personally solicit (or accept) tips from an audience, I realize that some must do so to make ends meet ... "
Thomas, that was really an unnecessary and snide remark.

Sorry Richard; I didn't mean it to be and I have edited my post to avoid any misunderstanding.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

[Frank Starsinic]

Of Props and Olives ----

Regarding fake olives: You could find them but someone suggest to go to the craft store and buy some of those fake green grapes.

Then you can snip off the tip of 2 grapes and stuff in a small red sponge ball or piece of a sponge ball.

Then you have 2 fake olives complete with pimentos.

I have also taken wine corks and hand-crafted olive-shaped corks and took a red sharpie and hand-crafted a red dot on one end of each.

Everyone says it's a cork but it fit's my warped sense of humor to prove that it is an olive ..
"No actaully, it's an olive and I'll prove it. See... There's the pimento!"


You could take a light-green sharpie to the rest of the cork to make it green but my patter fits better the less it really looks like an olive.


Regarding prop-ish looking items: It all depends on where you're working and who you are. All items will look propish if you're in the wrong setting and will look perfectly natural in the correct setting.

Behind a bar, I could imagine nothing better than either a jigger, a coffee cup, or a shaker.

In my opinion, my leather cups would not look good behind a bar. The only exception would be if you do dice stacking too. Then you have an excuse for why it's leather. If not, you should really be using something else in my opinion.

For strolling or close-up I'd prefer leather but copper is ok if you have a soft surface or it's an in-the-hands routine.

For the stage... maybe silver or brass for visibility and larger?

For trade shows? It depends on who your'e doing them for, I would guess. If it's Starbucks? Do the Coffee cup. If it's Alcoa? Even an aluminum will look natural. Just slap the company logo on the cup and you're good to go.


Frank

[Guest]

Frank: Thanks man....

The grape idea to make olives is a great one. I just realized that I have some of those big grapes in a pile in the garage. The green paint and sponge bit for the pimento will work just fine, not to mention a use for a bar magnet and my new jigger.

I had not thought about it before, but your idea prompted me to think about gaffing my 3D Sponge Bunnies and using a nut can with a carrot label for a kid routine.

opie

[Johnny Mystic]

The plastic grapes work good as olives. I made mine last month and the jigger routine ,I'll say once again is my favorite chop cup (even though it's not chopped).

I'm stll on the look out for plastic cherries...

Johnny

[Guest]

Great Johnny....Let us compare routines at home....opie

[Bill Mullins]

Opie -- are you the same as Opie Houston in other topics?

[Guest]

Bill: Yes, but I have been through therapy and am now a mild-mannered walkaround guy.

Just to show you where my heart is, I do a chop cup routine, with patter of a casino host welcoming a group of "suckers". I introduce my cup and a round black padded circle which I say is the black hole which catches the money the "guests" have brought, if they do not watch it. A ball represents their money, which can go down the "black hole" sometimes. The Chop Cup routine continues with some examples of losses and wins, as the spectators guess where the "money" is.

In the end, the "money" disappears, with the suggestion that they must keep their eye on their money. (An eyeball appears where they think the ball is, under the cup). Then, I tell them the real secret: That all they have to do is to rub the bald head of the leprochaun from the Fitzgerald's Casino to have good luck. (The final load, of course, is the key-chain leprochaun from the casino.

The "black hole" is simply a padded coaster, covered with black felt. Works great and deadens sounds you do not want heard.

Hope that routine makes up for some concern about me that has been present on this forum....I really am a competent magician and good guy. I just have some prejudices about some genres of magic. I hope that having an opinion will not be held against me.

I really do have some pretty good walkaround routines that are not even routines that you buy from a magic shop...

Let us get back to chops...I must own at least twenty cups that I have made from everything from nut cans to trophy cups from old athetlic trophies.

opie

[Dave Cox]

Gang - Just a couple of quick thoughts on this thread:

1) Thomas Wayne's coffee chop cup. It's freaking awesome. I played with it at the WMS, and I bought two. The magnetic features in the balls and the cups are, without exagerating, revolutionary; the way the magnets aren't harmed by warm liquids (like, say, coffee or tea) is amazing; the heft and feel and dropability of the cup - they're just great. And it's such a natural object to use. If it fits your style and your location, give it some serious thought. And I say this even though niether of my cups included Thomas' cool gimmick to load into a borrowed dollar...

2) As far as great routines go, there are some great moves in "The Two Goblets" routine (from Camirand?). And, I can't beleive that no one has referenced David Regal. He's got some great stuff and some very clever thoughts on chop cups. I beg you to overlook it.

3) Enigma - it's a very nice routine, and has some moves that seem like the crumpled dollar is just visibly appearing. And it uses a regular pint drinking glass with no cover. NO COVER. Just your hand. Your covering, covering hand...

4) Paul Daniels, at his Mastercalss said a very important thing: "Anything can be under that cup. ANYTHING!" Man, that's pretty mind blowing. Tiny crocheted balls are great and all, but, if I hear that sweater line one more time...

Personally, I have a Johnson set of combo cups, a Don Alan style cup, an amazing chop goblet from either the thirties or, more likely, the mid sixties, Norm Nielsen's chop tea cup (a great little routine, which is very pretty, and is the only routine I know wherein you purposefully and obviously flick and shake your cup to make the ball appear, as it rings around and around like a bell), and Thomas' chop coffee cups. I've used all of them to very good effect, depending on the situation.

I've done impromptu chop routines, theatrical or comedic or classy versions of my own devising; I've gone through Don Alan's routine, Larry Jenning's, Ron Wilson's, The Two Goblets, etc. etc. etc. and the only thing I''m very sure of, based on both my own experience, and that of watching dozens upon dozens of guys use the chop, is that most audiences don't really like the "where is it? in my pocket or under the cup? wrong, jerkass" style of routine unless it's very very short, or very, very charming.

Best of luck with your routine.

Cheers,
- Dave Cox
Los Angeles

[Jeff Eline]

Originally posted by Dave Cox:
the way the magnets aren't harmed by warm liquids (like, say, coffee or tea) is amazing;

I just got the Wayne coffee cup and I really like it. However, I thought I read in the directions that you shouldn't use hot liquids because of the magnets. I don't have the directions in front of me, but I think that's what I read.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Jeff Eline:

Originally posted by Dave Cox:
[b] the way the magnets aren't harmed by warm liquids (like, say, coffee or tea) is amazing;

I just got the Wayne coffee cup and I really like it. However, I thought I read in the directions that you shouldn't use hot liquids because of the magnets. I don't have the directions in front of me, but I think that's what I read. [/b]

Jeff,

Magnets will be adversely affected by excessive heat. The magnet in the Coffee Chop itself can (according to the manufacturer of the magnet) withstand temperatures in the range of 200+ degrees. The magnets in the balls will permanently fail at about 180 degrees.

Obviously most people would never subject themselves to coffee (or other beverage) that hot, but it is possible. So, for the same reason my lawnmower came with a sticker that warned me to not reach underneath it while it is running, I thought it smart to err on the side of caution when writing the directions.

A second, more reliable reason for not using the Coffee Chop to drink your coffee from is the tendency that coffee has to leave a nasty stain, over time. Peer into any OLD coffee cup to experience what I mean.

Best Regards,
Thomas Wayne

[Jeff Eline]

Thomas,

Thanks for the clarification.

Jeff

[cataquet]

Thomas, I don't think the cup would suffer from normal wear and tear. For example, boiling water in the cup with an immersion heater probably wouldn't generate enough heat to affect the magnet in the cup; the pottery acting as an insulator. Similarly, a dishwasher would take care of any stains without any impact.

However, my real concern would be the effects of sticking the mug in a microwave to warm up a drink.

Bye for now

Harold

[David Nethery]

I've been using the Enigma/ half-Sanada for Chop Cup type effects done with ordinary styrofoam coffee cups , but the ceramic coffee mug by Thomas Wayne looks like a great prop. I'm definitely going to order one from Steven's Magic Emporium .

[Brad Jeffers]

The coffee mug chop cup sold by Steven's is not the Thomas Wayne cup. It looks nice, but does not work well.

[David Nethery]

Originally posted by Brad Jeffers:
The coffee mug chop cup sold by Steven's is not the Thomas Wayne cup. It looks nice, but does not work well.

Oh, really ? I did not know that . I thought that Steven's was selling the Thomas Wayne model.

Thanks for alerting me to the difference , Brad Jeffers .

[Guest]

www.Hocus-Pocus.com sells the Wayne cup.

[Nicholas Carifo]

Pete Biro early in this thread mentioned briefly Paul Daniels' chop cup routine. As a kid, I first saw Paul peform this on STAGE in front of 3000+ people headlining an IBM Convention in the late 80's (Nashville maybe??)

I had no idea who Paul Daniels was at the time, and couldn't believe he was about to do the chop cup on stage (no copperfieldish video screens either).

Not only was it visible to the entire house, not only was it hilarious in presentation, but it brought him a standing ovation, or should I say PAUL Earned a standing ovation while performing a chop cup... and 2000 of those standing were not magicians but lay audience who bought tickets.

From that moment on I was in awe of Paul Daniels, but alas to this day have seen very little of his work outside of magic conventions here in the states. I would love to see him do some US Television.

Other Chop Cup Routines I enjoy was Doug Hennings from one of his specials (I understand it is not Dougs, but not sure who developed the routine)and of course the one and only Don Alan, tho I never cared for how he would bang the cup on the edge of the table just before adding a load. To me that just pulled the eyes to the cup at the wrong moment. But he was entertaining as hell:)

For David's original question of a shop cup strolling in a restaurant, one of my mentors, the late Sam Hoffmaster from Pennsylvania, always enjoyed performing strolling with a mini aluminum chop cup just larger than a shot glass and able to handle golf balls as the final loads. It was nice, to the point, and small props to fit in the coat pocket instead of walking around with apples, oranges, and peaches in your pockets:) He also used a magnetic quarter instead of a ball for the routine.

He taught me the routine and I used it for many years... this thread reminded me of it, and I am going to get back in step with it again.

Another note on ordinary looking chop cups....
Paul Gertner in his lecture explains how to easily gimmick a CERAMIC coffee mug for chop cup use. Cant remember if it is in his book Steel and Silver or his lecture notes.

And off the top of my head, there is a quickly-gimmiced paper cup chop cup that looks very innocent by ROBERT BAXT in his lecture notes "Stabbed in the Baxt".

I've really enjoyed this thread. The chop cup has always been one of my very favorite magical illusions.

Nicholas Carifo

[Pete Biro]

That was a lot of fun, having Paul at Nashville. When I booked him he asked if there was any TV he could get on whilst here in the U.S. -- I called a friend at the Nashville Network and they put Paul on "Nashville Now" at variety/talk show. He knocked 'em dead and featured a routine with linking rings and a young lady from the audience... but did not do his chop cup.

He DID, however, feature the chop cup at the last World Magic Seminar in Las Vegas... and destroyed all with his presentation.

:cool:

[Guest]

IT'S NOT THE CUP NOR THE TYPE OF BALL, IT'S THE PRESENTATION!
You can waste so much money on fancy cups with dumb side magnets or you can work on what's important.

I use a Morrisey cup and the standard crocheted balls. The presentation I am fortunate enough to use is Ron Bauer's take on Don Alan's presentation, and it's better than Alan's. Bauer understands the theatre and publics' thinking so much that the reactions are fantastic and twice of what the Alan routine gathers! It's unpublished and it kills. I don't know if he plans on releasing it, though.

On a side note, buy all the Bauer booklets you can get. He's one of the best thinkers and teachers we have in regard to theatrical magic don't waste your time with Burger and other false prophets.

[Pete Biro]

Ron Bauer's material is TOP NOTCH all the way... I have almost all of his material and he really knows his stuff.

I will "slightly" disagree with you. The cup and it's qualities -- how the ball drops, etc. -- is VERY important. You have a ball that bounces back up and sticks, or one that takes a huge bang to release and you are dead meat... your presentation will suffer.

[Guest]

Pete, glad you like Bauer's work as much as I. My point about using the Morrisey cup was that it's a very afforable cup that does a good job; of course you need one that is reliable and it fits the need without having to break your bank or hear the forum advertisements from people who make cups and want to sell more.