Coin Effects NOT Using Classic Palm

[Brian Rasmussen]

To this day I'm still frustrated with my ability to classic palm a coin. I have tried to work on the particular sleight to build up the needed muscles and avoid having my hand look like lobster boy. Still it continues.... Anyway, what coin effects does everybody like that does not require use of a classic palm at all?

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Brian Rasmussen:
.... what coin effects ...[don't] require use of a classic palm at all?

There is plenty of good coin magic using other concealments, much in CoinMagic, and David Roth's Expert Coin Magic.

um... and yeah that coins across routine folks seem to like exploring also happens to NOT use Classic Palm.

[Pete Biro]

Finger palm, Ramsay and Kaps subtleties beat a classic palm for sure.

[Terrence]

Han Ping Chien - for me works better.

[David Regal]

Try Golden Touch lotion made by the Chamberlain company of Des Moines. It is enormously helpful when it comes to classic palming. When I switched coasts my hands became almost impossibly dry and friction-free. The lotion saved me - I keep a case in the garage.

[Bill McFadden]

Brian,

A very helpful treatise on the classic palm can be found on Dan Watkins' website: Coinvanish.com . I hope you will find it to be useful.

[Jeff Eline]

Coins across routine by Jay Sankey (Mr. Clean Coins across), which I think he published a nice variation in Genii (2004 maybe?).

Greg Wilson also teaches a nice coins across called 3/4 on his "On the Spot" videos.

Crowded Coins or Coins to Purse by Paul Wilson

[Ian Kendall]

You might want to look into Koaina Harbottles Coins on Edge, which has _no_ classic palming (but is not for the beginner, either).

If you are having trouble with the palm there are a couple of things you might want to look at (judging by your symptoms); first make sure that the coin you are using is the right size for your palm. This may sound silly, but when you are learning to palm a coin having the right size will help you no end. Since you are suffering from the claw you might want to try a coin a tiny bit bigger (so for example, if you are using a half at the moment, you might want to get hold of an Old English Half Crown). Ironically, it could also be that the coin it too big, but Id try moving up first (unless you are on dollars now...).

Secondly, a proper palm has no tension at all; building muscles to grip the coin is not going to help much. Its possible that your sweet spot is not sweet enough - to find the right spot put the coin on your palm, move your thumb inwards _very slightly_ until the fold of skin is touching the edge of the coin and turn your hand over slowly. If you do this while playing around with the spot youll soon find the right place to start.

Once you have the spot, you need to spend a few days with a coin in palm, moving it from fingertips to palm and back again. Try to find four ten minute blocks a day for structured practice, but for the rest of the time just get used to the feel of the coin. If, at any time, you need to _grip_ the coin to keep it it palm, release it and start again.

Finally, if you have dry skin, the simplest answer is to drink lots of water (more than the two litres were meant to get through each day). Pretty soon youll find your skin is less dry.

Hope that helps - it may seem a wee bit disjointed as Im in Spain this week and struggling with an unfamiliar keyboard - it throws the concentration somewhat.

Take care, Ian

[Bill Duncan]

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Finger palm, Ramsay and Kaps subtleties beat a classic palm for sure.

Doesn't the Kaps bit use classic palm?

[Guest]

Just a few extra notes on the classic palm.
It took me about nine years to master it.
Most of the time was wasted because I did not think it was possible to do.
I think many believe that the hand can be held perfectly flat. It cannot. The thumb is still tucked in a bit. That is solved by keeping the thumb toward the body.
The other issue is that most believe it is like something very stable or fixed. With me the coin is always slipping out of my hand. If I secure it with great force, my hand looks like a claw. My routines are structured such that when the coin goes into the classic palm, it very quickly comes out of classic palm.

Now I am going to click to that reference above about the classic palm and see what it has to say.
Al Schneider

[Jonathan Townsend]

Let's also remember Al's effect, Matrix, which fits the bill for no CP required.

[Pete McCabe]

Gary Oullet's Close Up Illusions has his "Silverdust" routine which includes a very nice production, two Spellbound-style changes, a coin through table, and a complete vanish, none of which requires a classic palm.

But I would say that if you are holding another object in the hand that is classic palming the coin, your grip will look much more natural. This is what a wand is for, after all.

[Guest]

Harry Lorayne's The Magic Book has a four coins across routine useing finger palm.

[Brian Rasmussen]

Thanks everybody for the tips and references. I really appreciate the help!

[Danny Archer]

Originally posted by Al Schneider:
My routines are structured such that when the coin goes into the classic palm, it very quickly comes out of classic palm.

Well said Al,

this, I believe, is the key to effective classic palming ...

You don't need to hold the coin in CP for hours or even minutes ... a few seconds and then transfer the coin to another palming position ...

[Brian Rasmussen]

Yeah, and since I wrote my original message I went back to my Al Schneider DVDs and I've been having a blast with One Half Gone. What a great trick!

[Guest]

Danny and Brian, you are making my day.

Brian, You remind me of a discovery I made long ago. It is the effect that counts. One half gone is beautiful.

To extend your enjoyment pleasure I would like to suggest something else you might try.

Stick a piece of double sided tape on a half and then on your thumb. Then play.

Bye bye
Al Schneider

[Mike Rubinstein]

With all due respect to the other performers, the classic palm is worth practicing. When you finally master it, it will be, as David Roth says, like having two extra fingers. As a concealment, it has good cover and great angles. And, it doesn't lock up your fingers. It is a greater help to learn this concealment with both hands.

[Glenn Farrington]

David Roth's tip on using violin rosin along the edge of a coin can really help you get the classic palm down.

[Guest]

Is it possible that some who have trouble with the classic palm are operating under the misapprehension that the hand needs to be held perfectly flat for it to be effective? I've found the opposite to be true, and if the hand is held in a normal, relaxed way, with the fingers curled in slightly, it's not going to attract notice and a coin, or coins, can be held in the palm very comfortably. Wouldn't holding the hand out perfectly flat tend to draw attention and be unnatural? Just thinking out loud...

[Guest]

A gem is the Millikan Coin Transposition from Penny Poland's "Wonderful Routines of Magic."

Primarily uses the finger palm and Bobo switch.

There is a classic palm used, but it is in an off-beat moment, and you have plenty of motivation to grind the coin into position. It only stays in the classic palm for a second.

I would think that this is an excellent routine to learn the classic palm, as the action is very forgiving and there is strong misdirection.

[Ian Kendall]

One man's meat etc.

I'll agree with Michael R; the classic palm is definitely worth learning. It's not dissimmilar to the classic pass/top palm/<insert your favourite sleight here> - those that use it will praise it and usually, when someone learns it, they too will use it. But those that do not use it will generally play it down.

I can't remember learning the palm, and I can't remember a day when I haven't used it; even when not performing it's a fidget move, and feels perfectly natural. But that's just me.

Take care, Ian

[Brian Rasmussen]

Thanks again to all. In no way did I mean to sound like the classic palm isn't worth learning. I've been trying to work on it for a long time. I don't mind putting in the time to learn such things, I do enjoy it. There were lots of good tips here and they are helping. I have noticed how I was trying to grip the coin incorrectly and now it is looking better. The hand is not perfectly flat and does look more natural. In time it will improve further. Plus, taking Mr. Regal's suggestion I bought three bottles of Golden Touch Lotion. I'm glad they had some left and it wasn't all in his garage! I always heard of it and never tried it..excellent stuff, especially for my card work.

[Jeff Eline]

I honestly wonder whether some hands are not built for the classic palm. I hope I'm wrong, but I've been working on it for years. I did learn it incorrectly at first. But since I've had a number of performers (Swiss, Giobbi, Stone, Rindfliesch) look at my technique and give pointers.

I've tried getting into place and walking around doing everyday things to get used to it. I've even taped it in place. I can do a bottle cap and a quarter (sometimes) but I can't seem to keep a half dollar in place with any security - even for a few seconds. :mad:

[Guest]

Originally posted by Jeff Eline:
.....but I can't seem to keep a half dollar in place with any security - even for a few seconds.

Personally, I find that the sharp edge of an old English Penny makes it far easier to palm. While I can Classic Palm a half dollar, it was a knack that was more difficult to acquire.

But others have told me that they find a half dollar easier to Classic Palm than an old English Penny.

I guess that hands differ.

Originally posted by Ian Kendall:
I can't remember learning the palm.....

Same here. I learnt it so many decades ago that I assumed that it was dead easy and that anybody could do it. Then one day I was trying an effect that necessitated a Classic Palm in the left hand, and I discovered that I couldn't do that. It was only at that juncture that I realised that it was a learnt skill. (I can now Classic Palm in either hand, by the way.)

Dave

[Guest]

Just some more thoughts.

I did not learn the Classic Palm for about nine years. I thought it was impossible.

Also, I sometimes go for long periods of time without doing a trick that requires it. After such periods of time I find that I can no longer do it. I must work with it before it comes back. My conclusion is that the hand is actually deformed while mastering it. Thus, it is part skill and part alteration of the palm.

I know one magiaican that paracticed it so much that he hand a fairly heavy calous in the shape of a half dollar the coin fit into perfectly.

Life moves on.
Bye bye
Al Schneider

[Jeff Eline]

Originally posted by Al Schneider:
Just some more thoughts.

I did not learn the Classic Palm for about nine years. I thought it was impossible.

Also, I sometimes go for long periods of time without doing a trick that requires it. After such periods of time I find that I can no longer do it. I must work with it before it comes back. My conclusion is that the hand is actually deformed while mastering it. Thus, it is part skill and part alteration of the palm.

Thanks Al, that's good to know. I have two friends (full time performers) that picked up the classic palm very quickly with very little effort - an neither are heavy 'sleight of hand' magicians. As a result, my misconception was that it was a relatively easy technique that I couldn't master. Again, thanks.

[Larry Barnowsky]

Anatomically we have the same number of bones, muscles, and tendons in the hand, but the sizes, shape, flexiblity, and innervation of these structures do vary among individuals. That's why some can learn the Muscle Pass quickly while others can't ever seem to master it. The same is true for the Classic Palm. I agree with the prior poster who feels the hand should not be held straight when doing the CP. The hand and fingers assume a slightly flexed position when at rest. Keeping the hand straight with the coin in CP requires tension from forearm muscles to keep the tendons in the hand extended. That's a "tell" that may tip off the spectator that something is in the hand. There may be effects where holding the hand flat with CP is appropriate but I think for the most part a relaxed pose is the best bet. For those who have trouble with CP try it with different size coins. You may find a silver dollar easier to palm than a half and vice verse.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Al Schneider:
My conclusion is that the hand is actually deformed while mastering it. Thus, it is part skill and part alteration of the palm.

While that may be true for some (David Roth's 'palming muscle' for example) it's not for everyone.

I was one of those lucky folks who put a half dollar where Bobo told me to and it fit. First time, no effort at all. Dropping them from a palmed stack took some time but the basic grip without my hand looking like a claw came easily.

It took a fair amount of effort to translate that to quarters and silver dollars, but American Halves and old Canadian Dollars and 5 Franc pieces (both of which are just a bit bigger than halves) fit my hands perfectly. With halves I'm comfortable with four coins, but with the larger coins three is the comfort zone.

At one point I could classic palm and drop a stack of four dimes without any noticable movement of the thumb. Of course that was back when I hung around the magic shop too much and thought moves were what magic was about. I'm feeling MUCH better now. :)

I always suggest that folks try different sizes of coins to find what feels best in their hands. I think once you find something that 'fits' it makes it easier to use a coin that isn't perfect for you.

[Ryan Matney]

Al Schneider is the first person I've ever seen mention the same problems that I have always had with the classic palm.

I have pretty moist hands most of the time and it always feels like the coin is slowly slipping out of place. If I open my hand very wide I can then palm the coin securely by great presurre but...it looks unnatural in action and position.

It's because of this I have shied away from a lot of coin work.

On the other hand I have no trouble palming cards due to the moisture of my hands.

[Richard Kaufman]

At this point in my magical life, my coin work has almost disappeared, however I have always found that the only way my hand looked reasonably natural when a coin was classic palmed was when my hand is relaxed and my thumb is almost touching the tip of the second finger (fingers relaxed and loosely curled).
One of the things that's interesting about that is that this is exactly the same position the hand takes when a coin is fingerpalmed!
Also, I had lots of trouble with coins squirting out of classic palm due to moisture. Now that I'm well into middle age, my hands aren't moist at all and that problem has ... er ... evaporated. :)

[Guest]

I actually learned the classic palm early in my magic life - still in high school I was reading books from the library. You know the ones printed in the forties, and the classic palm was prominently featured as a must have sleight.

It never occurred to me it was impossible, just that I didn't have it down yet. Years later at The Midwest Conclave in Old Milwaukee I was busy at the booth selling Al's Al Schneider On Coins book.

My pitch was if you can do the classic palm you can do anything in this book. Boy was that a mistake! about three out of every four magicians claimed they could not do this palm and if the finger palm could be substituted.

That day I sold books at retail and taught the classic for free.

By the way Mr. Kaufman, when one passes the age of fifty as I have done, you will discover the loss of moisture in the hands goes by the name of mummification. :)

Frank Tougas

[Guest]

The proper classic palm looks like you are not doing anything at all and have full function of your hand.

IF you are crab claw, starfish or paralyized, you need more work and should use something else in performance.

I have moist hands and don't depend on the classic palm in my shows, but if I am in the groove I will use it to greater effect.

It is something that is lost without practice, so practice it with your working props everyday. Try typing with a coin palmed. Change coin sizes and materials if you must.

Dan Watkins info on the classic palm is a must read.

If you have hands, you can learn it, it just depends if you are willing to do the work.

Kirk

[Brian Marks]

I love the classic palm. It it is the 1 hard sleight I have mastered and its payed me dividends.

I practised the Classic Palm using David Williamson's version of chinc a chinc. I love that trick. Still do it and the reactions from laymen are huge.

[David Acer]

Originally posted by Brian Rasmussen:
Anyway, what coin effects does everybody like that does not require use of a classic palm at all?

Hi Brian,

Gary Ouellet's "Silver Passage" is a lovely coins-through-table routine that doesn't employ palming. There is lapping involved, but it's worth sitting down to perform this routine just for the Hirata Move alone.

[Guest]

What a wonderful thread. The position most comfortable for my hand when classic palming a coin is the reposed position, with the thumb just barely touching the second finger. It looks natural and it's what your hand does when it's relaxed. I have a decent amount of mobility with my fingers but cannot even begin to flatten my hand a la David Roth.

I am slowly moving into more coin work but use the classic palm sparingly.