John Ramsay's Cups and Balls Routine

[Guest]

For some hints on painting the cups -- yogurt cups -- see the article "Poor Man's Cups and Balls" in Genii Volume 45 number 2 February 1981 page 109

[Pete Biro]

Actually you are correct Richard... Ramsay used silver paint on the cardboard cups.

However, I think todays magicians would prefer a prop that they can buy, few lack the skill to paint something... :D

[Jim Riser]

Yes, according to Farelli, Ramsay painted his paper cups to prevent them from getting dirty. The choice of props to utilize during a performance is a very personal decision. Ramsay may have been quite comfortable using cardboard cups. For a paid performance I could not or at least would not utilize props that appeared to come from a preschool child's art session. I, by nature, am fussy about my props and prefer a classier looking prop than a crudely painted paper ice cream cup. The idea of the prop looking like a commonly found item is fine; but I prefer a better made and more durable natural looking prop. So, I make my own props during my own private art sessions :D

If paper cups fit your style, go for it. It's just not my style.

Mitch, I'm still fine tuning how I want to spin the aluminum cups. I do a fold back spin on them and am playing with this unusual technique. Also, I'm trying to see if the interior can successfully be powder coated to match the outside of the cups. It is an electrical process and, like plating, is difficult to get the powder to fully cover the interior. The interiors may need to be painted. More research is required before making them public. It's always a quest for perfection.

Pete, I'm not really concerned if there is much interest in this product as an item to market. Fortunately, I'm in a position where I can experiment with making various props and not be entirely governed by marketability of the items. To me a lot of it is the acquisition of new manufacturing techniques that I might use on other products. R&D is time consuming (slow) and at times quite expensive. It's all part of the game.

No item gets released before its time. I'm in no hurry.
Jim

[Richard Evans]

I completely agree that, regardless of what type of cups are used, the routine is all about skill - manipulating the props and the audience's attention.

However, even Ramsay's sprayed silver cups weren't immediately recognisable as ice cream tubs. If you wanted the cups to be recognisable, wouldn't it make more sense to leave the tubs unpainted?

The advantages of Jim's idea are: the cups will be recognisable as ice cream tubs; they'll be more durable than cardboard cups; plus they are guaranteed to be very well made and will look 'the business'.

I have to offset the initial low-cost of the cardboard cups against the cost of consuming all that Haggen Dazs. What I save on drawstring pants, I will spend on Jim's cups! Now there's a marketing ploy - the Jim Riser Diet Plan :)

[Bill Wells]

Just to add an opinion ...

I would like to see a set of Ramsay style cups available in metal. However, I would much rather have them unpainted. I would not want them to look like ice cream cups.

Bill

[Richard Kaufman]

Having metal cups painted to look like ice cream cups, or with a label on them, will immediately scream "fake" to the audience because it is something that doesn't exist in real life.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Having metal cups ...is something that doesn't exist in real life.

True, however if they were bronze...

For folks working on the trick, Ben and Jerry's also has that small cup and they come with plastic lids. For the restaurant worker, or well prepared... this does open up the option of swapping the cup(s) out at the end to offer the ice cream, or just for yourself as a reward for getting through the trick.

[Jim Riser]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Having metal cups painted to look like ice cream cups, or with a label on them, will immediately scream "fake" to the audience because it is something that doesn't exist in real life.

Quite true for an ice cream label. So the problem becomes how to make it look "ordinary". My latest thinking is to make the cups a bright neon green powder coat with a label indicating a kids' product like "Slime". This would appear entirely acceptable in an aluminum cup. Few in the audience would consider such a wild natural looking item to be "fake". We have all seen such items in toy stores or on Saturday morning TV ads. It would appear that the cup was made from metal for longer storage periods or so that the container would not break and thus leak "Slime" on to the carpet. I think this is a "go" on the design concept - except, perhaps, final colors. I'll have my artist son work on the label.
Jim

[Guest]

Could these cups not be painted a brick red and made to resemble small flower pots?

[Tabman]

As soon as the audience hears the sound of metal on metal it wil be obvious that the cups are not ceramic flower pots or cardboard ice cream or "slime" containers IMO.

-=tabman

[Jim Riser]

There's really nothing wrong with just leaving them plain bare aluminum. They are what they appear to be - cups! The idea is to have some fun with the props and to do some cool magic. Hell, the white aluminum cups with an ice cream label could be be explained away as an "anniversary collectors' cup". Sheesh. Stick with cardboard if you are some sort of purist or can not feel at ease with props. I prefer nicer tools.

Do card guys feel they need to "explain" why their Jerry's Nuggets deck do not look like a bike deck? I think not. So why feel that these cups need to look like something people are familiar with? This seems to be an example of selective reasoning. Just get out there and present the magic - an explanation of the props is not required! No cups look "ordinary" - and they certainly seem to work well for many performers (for a loooooong time).

As I indicated in a post above, I really do not care if there is any interest in these cups. I want to perfect the spinning technique and powder coating technique. I'll make a few sets, keep one, sell some (?), and perhaps give away some cool Christmas gifts next year. It does not matter to me. I'm after techniques not props.

Why bother?
Jim

[Guest]

Couldn't agree more Jim. my suggestion was only for those who are trying to make them look like something else.
As for the sound, who would question it? And why? They could be the type of "decorative"pot you might find in a gift shop.
Just my two cents worth to add to the discussion.

[Jim Riser]

Terry;
Flower pots would look fine. Votive candle holders would do. There is no limit to how they might be explained away. As you realize, the point is that they do not need to be explained at all. I really do not know why so many magicians are so insecure and feel everything must be explained. The real workers do not waste time on such nonsense - they just entertain with the magic.
Jim

[Pete Biro]

The important aspect is the SHAPE of the cups, which has to be the SAME as Ramsay's to fit the coils, etc.

My preference would be aluminum (or silver plated metal).

Jim: Perhaps, since you are not interested in a mass market, I may get a run made???

[Jim Riser]

Yes, Pete, the shape and size are critical - to a point. I've already turned my steel spinning chuck and appropriate follow block to Ramsay's specs (the major expense in creating these cups). I have the aluminum in stock. Since, I'm this far, I'll make a small run to see if there are enough performers interested to make the project worth doing. It's just a matter of me going out to the spinning lathe to spin a few sets. I love the convenience of being able to make anything I want.

If you want to have a run made, that's up to you. With your spinner getting paid, your cut, and a dealer's markup, I doubt if you can sell them anywhere near the price I can. If they are CNC machined, they will be rather clunky (too thick). I am potentially a few hours from putting them on the market - in bare spun aluminum. Any powder coating will take longer.

Jim

[Pete Biro]

Sounds great... I (we) are nowhere near doing anyting, my guess is a year away.

[Richard Evans]

It's been great to follow the train of thought in this thread. Seems to me that the best solution is not to explain what the cups are at all and to keep them plain. Brushed aluminium cups - sound great.

[Pete Biro]

In the meantime, get your ice cream cups and silver paint and start to learn the great routine that Ramsay developed. :cool:

[Jim Riser]

A full sized prototype of a hand spun aluminum John Ramsay style cup exists :eek:

It and the process for creating it may be seen here:

http://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/JohnRamsay/Cup.html

Enjoy.
Jim

[Bill Mullins]

Jim -- in the next to last photo, you can clearly see the "gap" between the outer sleeve and inner full cup (in the space where the wooden filler disk used to be). In the last photo, it looks like it was filled, or like it is only one piece of metal to start with.

What did you do between the last two photos to fix this?

[Jim Riser]

Bill;
Due to the technique needed to make the bottom for the recess, a noticable joint between the two layers of spinnings can not be completely eliminated. Cleaning the spinning lube from this seam helps, though :D

In person it is not really an issue. If you look at the image at the top right of the page, you will see an image taken with flash. The seam is not in shadow in this image (and it is clean).
Jim