Three Coins in the Hat

[Dave Shepherd]

I recently decided to undertake work on this coin classic of John Ramsay's, from The Ramsay Legend, by Andrew Galloway. It just seems like one of those things a serious coin worker ought to be able to do. It seems to be the basis for some other things that I do perform, most notably Roth's "Hanging Coins."

I'm working with rather soft (although not slick) Walking Liberty halves, but I'm wondering whether silver dollars might not be a better size, in particular when I am instructed by Mr. Galloway to "allow the [visible] coin to slide noiselessly on the finger palmed one(s)."

I can't recall what size coin a half crown is/was.

What kind of a hat is best to use (particularly to avoid coin-talk)?

Does anybody have any thoughts on this routine? Will I be working on this trick for three years before I even show my wife and daughter?

[Guest]

Dave,
I would strongly suggest the use of silver dollars for this effect. However, until you are comfortable with the routine...use halfs. And no...you will not be performing this anytime soon. That is unless you are some kind of coin prodigy ;) !

Mike

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Dave Shepherd:
...Will I be working on this trick for three years before I even show my wife and daughter?

If you plan on doing the routine as written you have a long and steep learning curve to travel. Unless you have a demeanor, hands and sense of humor like JR, you may have to adapt some things.

First up, do you wear a hat? Or have access to a hat when performing? Hats and smoking were common when JR designed the routine. Next, Half Crowns are just a bit bigger and thicker than Half Dollars. They tend to be MUCH softer than halves so you may want to give them a chance. Also Crowns if you have larger hands. It may be a while before you can get a laugh out of the first coin production. Likewise the coin-through-hand phases takes some focus. The coin vanish sequence at the end is a bit difficult.

Funny thing about this routine is I have never heard of someone producing a 'fourth coin' at the end from the hat. Or borrowing the hat. Or pulling a giant coin from the hat as a kicker. Or doing a load and pouring LOTS of coins from the hat. Guess we don't wear enough hats these days. :D

[Guest]

I agree with the opinion of Jonathan Townsend. Since there are almost no those who are wearing the hat now, this may be a routine, which is hard to perform now. Since there is the current of the times, now, that is not sometimes right [with the routine in which natural laughter took place] at all a long time ago. For example, there is a routine called the “Surprise Stab Revisited” created by Scotty York. A long time ago, the spectator was laughing naturally when Fred Kaps was performing this routine just showing the plug of a razor. But since it is IT dates now, even if it shows such a razor, the spectator does not laugh at all.

About the coin to be used, I think that the coin, which suited the size of own hands, should be chosen. Since the hands of John Ramsay having been smaller than the adult male and he were using most “finger palm” abundantly, it may be the larger coin was suitable. I think that JR used “Size English empire Edward VII Half Crown”. This coin is a little as large as 32.1mm to the diameter as against the usual Half Dollar being 30.6mm. If your hand is not so large and “Capped Bust Half Dollar” will be used, how is it? The diameter of this coin is also somewhat as large as 32.5mm, and the surface is also soft (worn coin). However, a problem of this coin is too expensive. (^_^)

Y. Mutobe

[Bill Duncan]

Is there a reason that "Three Coins in the Hat" must be done with a hat?

Other than the obvious one, I mean?

[Dave Shepherd]

Wow! I'm overwhelmed at the responses to my query from people I respect a lot.

I think I'm inclined to use silver dollars for this; I have rather large hands. I have a stack of four very smooth old Morgans that I've been using to practice various versions of three-fly. I tried the "pull-back" move (sliding the visible coin onto a palmed stack) this evening, and it was much, much easier than with the halves. I'll simply need to cough up some money for a couple more silver dollars. I don't think I've got six that look close enough to each other.

Bill, I also don't see any reason why a hat has to be used. Technically the routine requires a soft container with enough space to let three coins fall separately, and with high enough sides to conceal the coins. I do, in fact, sometimes wear a fedora, however, and I might just keep working with that.

Mike, I seriously expect to put in about a year's practice on this thing before I show it around to anybody. (I am most definitely NOT a coin prodigy!) I've learned in the past three days that the mechanics of the moves are just the very outer crust of the work that must be done. Focus and acting seem to be the most important things.

Jonathan, when I worked through the first coin production, I realized that Paul Wilson uses exactly that production at the beginning of Crowded Coins. So I've got a referential context for that move. I've been messing with Paul's routine since it first appeared in Genii (1999?).

You're certainly right about the vanish sequence at the end, Jon. Having worked through the thing several times, I can easily imagine mastering all the moves except for the steal-acquitments at the end. My hands are trying very hard to make sense of that sequence.

I'm trying to think about the routine: isn't the whole shebang built in groups of three? Three coins are produced, the hanging sequence happens three times, the coins are counted from hand to hand three times, etc. No kickers or shower-of-coins loads or jumbos or any of that other stuff.

So I guess it's off to the coin shop with me! This could, indeed, be an expensive experiment, but I imagine it will be worth it in the long run!

[Guest]

No kickers or shower-of-coins loads or jumbos or any of that other stuff.

I once heard a story that Ramsay produced candy kisses at the end of the routine...can antone confirm this?

And Dave, for now...don't worry about matching coins...you are in learning mode...use what you have.

Also, I've heard way to many times...halves vs. dollars due to hand size. What a cop out...Michael skinner, David Roth, And Howie Shwartzman had six of the smallest hands I have ever seen....but they do/did nothing but miracles with those tiny little hands!

Mike

[Dave Shepherd]

Well, yeah, I always find smaller coins much harder to work with than larger ones. Halves are much better for me than quarters, and dollars better than halves. Less talking, more relaxed-looking holdouts, etc.

So I'll gather together my smooth Morgans and smooth Peace Dollars and get to work!

Does anybody have any tips for the multiple vanish sequence at the end. (I.e., swapping a stack of 3 secretly between hands while appearing to steal a coin from the hand that appears to hold one but is really empty, then doing it again the other way.) This is really a killer (as in difficult); and most importantly, it gives me the feeling that it looks incredibly unnatural.

[Guest]

Well this is my guess. I believe that the point of a feint is to have the audience thinking that they have caught you, they are exited and are watching that hand that you "stole" the coin into very intently, when they see the hand is empty the tension brakes and they relax, it is during this state of relaxation that the steal is made. This is what I believe this is for but then again, I am not Mike Gallo, or Jonathan Townsend, or Mutobe I can barely do the routine without someone saying "hey call 911 that boy's hand is turning into a claw someone get him some freakin' naturalness, STAT".

Noah Levine ( sorry about the rant at the end)

[Dave Shepherd]

Okay, I got a stack of big, old, smooth dollars and went through the "easy" moves (i.e., everything up through the third hanging sequence and first two vanishes). The moves are MUCH easier to do, at least in my hands.

Originally posted by NoahLevine:
I believe that the point of a feint is to have the audience thinking that they have caught you, they are exited and are watching that hand that you "stole" the coin into very intently, when they see the hand is empty the tension brakes and they relax, it is during this state of relaxation that the steal is made.

I understand what you're saying, Noah, but as I study Ramsay Legend, it seems that the first feint happens at the very moment the steal is made. You're supposed to give the impression that you're taking a (non-existent) coin into the RH, but instead you're moving a stack into the LH. Yes, it puts heat on the RH, but the left hand is holding out in a rather bold way (a fist holds a stack of coins in heel clip position).

And then just after showing the RH empty, you bring the hands together AGAIN and re-steal back into the RH, when you "slap the right hand palm down on top of the left so the coins go into the right thumb palm."

In other words, I don't see exactly where the relaxation of audience tension would occur. Seems like there'd be great heat on both hands during that little back-and-forth. Maybe they'd relax a bit after you open the RH, but then the next move, slapping the left fist, is pretty arch and suspicious.

Whew! This is going to take some thought and modification, I expect.

[Bill Duncan]

Originally posted by Mike Gallo:
Also, I've heard way to many times...halves vs. dollars due to hand size. What a cop out...

As I recall the Ramsay sequence requires that the coin(s) in fingerpalm and the one(s) in display position be touching and sort of pivot/swivel into concealment? Or am I not remembering correctly?

If that's the case then coin size does matter. I can't hold a half in fingerpalm and have it be anywhere near the coins at my fingertips... Doing the vanishes like JR simply won't work for me unless I use larger coins...

[Curtis Kam]

Dave, on feeling out the timing on the Ramsay heel-clip steal, I feel your pain. It's apparently a tough thing to describe in print, judging from the descriptions I've read. Have you seen the Galloway tapes? Perhaps they shed some light on this.

One helpful source (that I just reread last night) is John Carney's treatment of the "Cylinder and Coins" from "Carneycopia". The same approach is used for the last coin vanish, and Minch's description of John's handling is the best and most detailed I've seen.

You might also want to review the introduction the effect, wherein Minch describes John Carney's attempts to make the routine play for a lay audience. The same sort of adjustment may be necessary in the case of the "coins in hat".

I once reworked this routine with the goal of creating the same effect for a lay audience. The final result was done with three coins and a hankerchief, which is folded on the table. The routine (performance only) should appear on my DVD "Palms of Steel 3" which is supposed to be out by the end of the month.

I hear that John Carney also has a video media project in the works, and it will feature this very routine. So get your thoughts in now, before John does all the hard work for you! :)

[Matthew Field]

One of the items Richard Kaufman brought back from the MacMillan convention in England was the new two-video set of Andrew Galloway tapes on Ramsay. I'm reviewing them in the March Genii.

They are excellent. "Three Coins in the Hat" is on the second tape. Check out the InternationalMagic site ( www.InternationalMagic.com ) for info, although the last time I looked they had only Volume 1 listed.

Matt Field

[Dave Shepherd]

Curtis, thanks for putting me on to Carneycopia. I actually have that beside my bed as one of my "read-myself-to-sleep" books, and I was looking at the Cylinder and Coins last week, just out of curiosity. I'll go back and take a careful look at the intro.

I think you're right, I'm going to have to see somebody do it who knows how it should look. Galloway should certainly have known how to do it, as should also John Carney and Curtis Kam! ;)

I'll keep my eyes open for these videos, Matt. Thanks to both of you guys for these tips.

[Danny Archer]

I saw Howie's name in this thread and it recalled a memory that I'd like to share ... about fifteen years ago I just had started working in a magic store in Philly, somehow I was invited to fly down to the TAOM and help Howie Schwarzman work his booth ... Howie flew his own prop plane and we made it down fine ... the first night we were alone in hotel room, relaxing and sharing a drink, when Howie asked me if I had ever seen The Coin in the Hat routine...

I said no and Howie retrieved his hat, and clad only in his boxer shorts, proceeded to do this classic of magic ... when he finished my jaw was hanging down ... it was, and still is to this day, one of the strongest and best performed pieces of pure sleight of hand I have ever seen ... on the way back one of the engines failed and we had to make an emergency landing ... but that's another story ... Danny

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Danny Archer:
I saw Howie's name in this thread and it recalled a memory that I'd like to share ...

Yes, anyone who would like some insight on the routine from someone who knew the originator might want to check with Howie.

BTW, the last vanish sequence ends with something that when seen is very simple. The last coin is taken, and after an awkward looking steal attempt, the 'guilty hand' is shown empty. With a wink the magician says... "well, if it's not here.. it's gotta be HERE (slap) ... then with a wave of my hand the last coin disappears". The big issue is to make it seem as if you did a bad move and someone noticed. Your comment is addresed to the watchful audience member.

The underground has a whole unwritten book on more modern handlings of this routine. Perhaps some of this will get around after Geoff's book is published. He got me started on this in 77, so I'm giving him first dibs on the updates. :)

[Guest]

I've seen that Curtis performs “Three Coins and a handkerchief” routine two years ago. This is a brilliant impromptu variation of “Three Coins in the Hat”. I think that it is the easy to perform routine, which not only for lay audience but also for magician can enjoy. I wish that “Palms of Steel 3” DVD were released early.

Y. Mutobe

[Dave Shepherd]

Originally posted by Curtis Kam:
One helpful source (that I just reread last night) is John Carney's treatment of the "Cylinder and Coins" from "Carneycopia". The same approach is used for the last coin vanish, and Minch's description of John's handling is the best and most detailed I've seen.

Curtis, I carefully read Minch's description for "Streamlined Cylinder and Coins" last night. You're right, Minch describes the series of moves in great detail. It's now much easier for me to understand.

[Frank Starsinic]

Curtis is taking the words right out of my mouth.

The only thing left to add is that after reading Carneycopia and trying the heel-clip steel, I still did not understand misdirection, timing and the smoothness of operation necessary to pull it off. That is until I watched John Carney's "Up Close And Far Away" video which has a performance (only) of Cylinder and Coins.

The combination of "Carneycopia" and "Up Close And Far Away" is a fantastic learning tool and 2 of my prized possessions.

I originally studied Cylinder and Coins from Carneycopia (only) for a long while. I thought I had a lot of it down pat. Then I realized that it was on video and purchased "Up Close...".

All I can say is that I was SHOCKED!!! when I saw how smoothly and effortlessly Carney performs these slights.

The first thing I realized was that I had another 6 months of practice ahead of me before I could perform C&C.

The steal is also on the Galloway C&C performance but it is done in a different way, and if I do say so myself, not nearly as convincing as Carney's steal. Not even close. IMHO.

[John Carney]

Hey guys........

a friend notified me that there was a thread on this topic, so I checked in to see.

The coins and the cylinder has been a great tool for me to work out problems and has also taught me a great deal about misdirection, timing and body language. It has effected all my magic.

The coins and the hat is also great. It is notable in that it is so incredibly bold. It is largely dependent on nerve. You have to be totally relaxed.

This is an odd concept. You actually have to rehease how to look relaxed. Its not enough just to down a couple scotches so you are relaxed.......You have to figure out what makes you LOOK relaxed and then rehearse so that it looks as though you have not rehearsed!

I am putting together a DVD of these two tricks, which should be available in April. If you want to be notified, you can add your name to my mailing list through my web site:
www.carneymagic.com

I will also be doing these tricks as part of my seminars in a few select cities. If you want to be notified of these, click on your city on the lecture schedule link at my site.

The real joy of these tricks is making your own discoveries as you learn. First you must look for the weaknesses, then try to solve them. This may sound simple, but to most people, things are always "good enough".

Not so with John Ramsay. This man really knew how to influence not only the spectator's eyes, but his whole thought process. I can't wait to see Galloway's new tapes. I saw him in Scotland and was very privledged to see him perform some of Ramsays's routines. They looked great. I'm sure anyone on this thread would love to have a copy of his performance. This is the closest we will ever have to seeing Ramsay do it himself.

Thanks for listening.....

John

[Richard Kaufman]

Folks, you really need to buy the new Ramsay tapes from International Magic. Galloway does the Ramsay material to perfection. It is as if Hofzinser's foremost student made a video of his routines. They are a true treasure. I know both volumes are out because I own and have watched them.

[Dave Shepherd]

Thank you so much, John, for contributing to this.

I particularly appreciate your reminding us how well thought out Ramsay's material is, lest we begin to tinker.

I'll be on the lookout for both your tapes and the Galloway tapes.

[Guest]

What is it about Cylinder and Coins that perfectly captures our imagination? Must be its simplicity, directness...Three Coins in the Hat has this same effect...

I always tell my friends if I could only do one coin effect, it would be Cylinder and Coins.

Thanks to John Carney, John Ramsay is as hip and relevent as ever.

[Doug Brewer]

R.Paul Wilson has a coin routine in "5X5 Scotland" by our illustrious Mr. Kaufman, that is based on Ramsay's Coin/Hat routine. It is a very complicated 4 coins as 2, using a single playing card as the "hat". It may give you some ideas for the original routine.

[Frank Starsinic]

Its not enough just to down a couple scotches so you are relaxed

Darn! Just when I thought I had it all figured out.

[Pete Biro]

I just got the Ramsay tapes from International Magic, and to see the material done to perfection (altho Galloway in no way works LIKE J.R.) is a treat...

Luckily... there are a few clips of Ramsay himself on these tapes so you can get a real idea of what he was like.

The timing, style, etc. is only seen when you watch the bits of Ramsay... the technique is there from Galloway... Now, it is up to YOU to put your own style into play to make the material work. :genii:

[Dave Shepherd]

Please forgive my ignorance and/or naivete, but I presume that the videotapes from International Magic will play without a problem on an American (NTSC) video player?

[Philippe Noël]

If my memory is right, you can see Michael Vincent performing "Three coins in the hat" with a borsalino hat on the 8th International Close-up Competition Video from International Magic. His performance is great as usual.

[Mark Tams]

FYI. If you haven't had the pleasure of seeing it, Troy Hooser has developed his application on this routine. He's performed it at a few select areas, and it's a real fooler. He does approach the hat issue differently, I won't spill the beans on it. He is working on putting this out in a manuscript and should be available. He's artisticly applied his style to this effect along with some great handling styles and principles. Hopefully it won't take him long to get it out, everyone will enjoy it. And better yet, if you get a chance to see him perform it, it'll really fool ya! :)

[Guest]

I've always looked at close up as sort of three areas: Coins, Cards, and Other. It sounds as if the Coins and Cylinder (or Coins and Hat)routines are considered by many to be the epitome of sleight of hand with coins; whereas with "Other" it would probably be Cups and Balls. This is because these magical routines incorporate everything great about sleight of hand and wrap it beautifully into interesting showpieces.

What routine(s) would be the equivalent in Card magic? Ambitious Card? Multiple Selection routines?

I'm about to embark on the journey of learning the Cylinder and Coins.

[Guest]

I have just watched the Ramsay Tapes from International I am delighted with them. The footage of Ramsay is pricless.

The Coins in the Hat and the Cylnder and Coins have been in my program for quite soem time. Many years ago, I presented the Cylinder and Coins on B.B.C television and the host freaked out. It is an awesome effect, a little "excentric" to qoute my friend Bobby Bernard but still highly valid for today's audience IMHO. To this day I have seen only three people do it: Gallowy and Carney both on vidoe and an expert rendition by Bob Kholer.

What more can I say, check it out and try it for a layman, that's the only way you will know for sure if this effect is right for you.

Good luck

Michael

[Rich Cowley]

Bill Duncan writes:
Is there a reason that "Three Coins in the Hat" must be done with a hat? Other than the obvious one, I mean?

A comment and a question from me, I guess:
- In my street-performer days, I wore a top hat (for looks, for my 3C&H routine, and for -most importantly- revenue collection). These days, performing off of a tabletop, I've been using a *coffee mug*, tossing the coin(s) into the mug quite noisily, so the sound of a coin falling alone into the mug and a coin falling onto other coins sounds the same.
- At the risk of appearing stupid: What's the "obvious" reason for the *hat*?

Thanks for listening!

[Glenn Farrington]

Carney does a great streamlining of it, Kohler makes it look like real magic and makes it easier for real world workers...but...If you really want to see the ghost of Ramsay do his cylinder and coins...Seek the tape of Tim Conover performing it.

[Danny Archer]

I watched Conover do C&C many times when he was working a booth at the Comdex show ... his routine was breathtaking ...