Info About a Coin Production

[Michael Close]

Im trying to track down a credit for the following coin production, which can be used for the first coin in a Misers Dream routine.

A half dollar or a silver dollar is held behind the fingers of the right hand. The coin goes behind the first and ring fingers, but in front of the middle finger, which curls in so the tip of the finger can press against the coin, holding it against the back of the hand. This position leaves a gap between the first and ring fingers. This gap is covered by the thumb, the tip of which presses against the tips of the first and ring fingers.

To produce the coin the right hand is held out, with the palm facing the audience. As the hand gently waves up and down, the middle finger pushes the coin into view, so it appears at the tips of the fingers.

This is a very beautiful production, and I saw it 30 years ago at a magic club meeting in Hollywood. I have no idea who it belongs to. Im trying to get credit info for a review Im writing. Thanks for any help.

Close

[Guest]

I am sure it is taught in McBride's "World Class Manipulation" DVD series. Might be called "Eclipse Production" there, perhaps there is a source or credit mentioned (Lancaster?).

Denis

[Guest]

Originally posted by Denis Behr:
...Might be called "Eclipse Production" there, perhaps there is a source or credit mentioned (Lancaster?).

Lou Lancaster showed it to some of us in Tannen's yet I don't recall if he cited a source. It's like a sleight of hand version of the coin on fan production.

[Guest]

I should be talking to Lou in the next few days. I'll ask him if he remembers the source.

[Guest]

Originally posted by David Alexander:
I should be talking to Lou in the next few days. I'll ask him if he remembers the source.

Please give him my regards. He was patient and instructive even when I was less calm and fun than today.

[Guest]

I am sure I will get flamed for this but.... I REALLY don't see the need for all the effort that goes into researching credits for this stuff.

There is nothing new under the sun, so we can probably assume someone has been there before us. If something is genuinely new, by all means claim credit for it (no doubt there will be someone there to shoot you down in flames if you committed the cardinal sin of "ripping off without giving credit")

If you are not claiming it as your own, why bother crediting? If someone is that interested, let them do the research, or the original inventor can pipe up. But if an effect is not being claimed as original, there is really no need to do so, is there?

Bob

[Michael Close]

The coin production I described is in a new book that Im reviewing for the October issue of Genii. The author of the book is in the same boat I am: he saw the move many years ago, but has no idea who created it. I thought that using the resources of this board might provide the answer; and perhaps it will.

The reason people seek out crediting information is because its important. There are far less rewards for creativity in magic than in other endeavors, consequently the least we can do is give a tip of the hat to those whose ideas enhance the art.

Close

[Pete Biro]

Could it have been Charlie (Miller)? Carney would know if it was "Twinkletoes." Maybe you could reach John via his website.

[Guest]

would it have been Charlie (Miller)? Carney would know if it was "Twinkletoes."

I'm pretty sure this is Lou Lancaster's move

if you are not claiming it as your own, why bother crediting?

Its a courtesy. It is respect. Remember the magic words, please and thank you? Some people work on things for years, looking for the best way to do something. Its nice to know your efforts are appreciated. If you come up with an idea someday, and have someone else take and claim it, you will feel the sting yourself.

Also, many people don't seem to understand, GOOD magic is not created on the internet or at the magic shop. It is created by hard working people. If we find something we like, and know who created it, we might dig and find other great stuff that this person originated. A knowlege and respect of magic history is necessary if we want to rise above packet tricks and Tenyo.

If we dig a little deeper than the surface, if WE start to contribute, rather than just take, we may perhaps learn and grow as well.

[Pete Biro]

Glad you chimed in Mr. Mysto... As usual you make good points. How's the show going with Raymond Crowe... he brought tears to the eyes of many at FISM.

[Richard Kaufman]

I'm sorry Bob, but you're about as wrong as you can be--for many reasons.

One of the most important responsiblities the people who write about magic and make videos have is to attempt to properly credit the originators of ideas, including sleights, effects, and routines.

Otherwise you're just a thief.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
One of the most important responsiblities the people who write about magic and make videos have is to attempt to properly credit the originators of ideas, including sleights, effects, and routines.

I think the key word there is ATTEMPT. We may not always know who came up with the move, routine, principle, or prop, but we can at least state where WE got it from, usually. If you make the attempt, and cite the sources you know, even if you are incorrect and someone corrects you later, you will receive respect from your peers for trying to do the right thing.

I modified my above statement with the word USUALLY. Sometimes we have absolutely no clue as to where we saw something, but we are certain it is not our own original idea. In that case, say so. It's just the right thing to do and it doesn't cost anything to do it correctly.

It's not all that much of an effort, Bob. Don't consider this post as a flame for your remarks, but rather a squirt of seltzer water down the pants.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
I'm sorry Bob, but you're about as wrong as you can be--for many reasons.

One of these is that if you don't do the due diligence, you wake up one morning and you find that the person you forgot to credit is Bob Farmer. That will not be a pleasant experience.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Otherwise you're just a thief.

I would take issue with that one statement - I think you are only a thief if you try and pass somehting off as your own.

I still don't see what it wrong with the credits portion of your book/DVD saying something like "none of this is my original material - I just gave it my interpretation. Feel free to research the sources yourself"

Having said that, I appreciate the comments, and thanks for not flaming. I certainly understand the concept of courtesy, and think that is about the best reason I have seen

I certainly think that where something being "borrowed" is recent and the source obvious, then crediting is a must. I guess if the girl with the floating hand thing had kicked off her set with "I saw a wonderful magician <insert name here> do this trick - hope you like my interpretation" she might not have got the stick she did

Bob

[Guest]

Originally posted by Bob Walder:
I still don't see what it wrong with the credits portion of your book/DVD saying something like "none of this is my original material - I just gave it my interpretation. Feel free to research the sources yourself"

Bob,

It is, in effect, saying I have taken the work of others and profited from it, and I'm now trying to sell my derivative work. But I cant be bothered crediting those who did the actual creative work that inspired mine.

I can understand how it happens; after all its boring and hard work sometimes. But its hard to justify the disrespect that it implies.

Of course, often when you DO the homework you find out that what you think is your original idea is in fact the method that was improved by the person who you learn it from originally

Thats how I view it anyway.

[Tom Stone]

Originally posted by Bob Walder:
I still don't see what it wrong with the credits portion of your book/DVD saying something like "none of this is my original material - I just gave it my interpretation. Feel free to research the sources yourself"

Would you feel comfortable if you were going to learn to play the guitar from a DVD, and noticed that the teacher neither knew nor recognized names like Beatles, Abba, Mozart, David Bowie - while attempting to teach their songs? Refering to them all as "my interpretation of a tune that I heard a guy at the pub sing."

Or, would you feel comfortable when offered to choose a very nice painting from a collection - and you suddenly noticed that all the signatures from all the paintings had been sanded off?

And don't you think it is odd that some people are able to remember long and complex sequences of moves and whole sentences of patter, but are totally unable to remember two words like "Alex Elmsley" or "Dai Vernon"?

Another scenario: Let's say you get hold of a fairly unknown DVD by "Mr. Oxini". The last item is a killer! No one seems to have seen it before, and you are starting to get some reputation for it. Then, at a convention, you find yourself in a late night session, with 2-3 of people you admire and consider personal heros. And you get the chance to impress them, and you know that you will fool them, with your new killer effect. So you perform it for the person you admire most... and the room gets very cold. The personal hero you've performed for gives you an intense and angry look and says "Get the ****** out of here!". All the others look at you, as if you were a moron. As you leave, without having a clue about what happened, you overhear; -"The nerve! Ripping off one of your unpublished pieces and then attempting to perform it for you. You should have hit him in the face. Hard!"
... At that point, what would your opinion be about the lack of credits on the "Mr. Oxini" DVD?

[Tom Stone]

Originally posted by Bob Walder:
I guess if the girl with the floating hand thing had kicked off her set with "I saw a wonderful magician <insert name here> do this trick - hope you like my interpretation" she might not have got the stick she did

It wasn't an interpretation. And had she mentioned Chris name, it would have made it a very simple case in court, as she then would have admitted a transgression of choreography copyright at the time she did the crime. Would have been impossible to claim ignorance then.

[Tom Stone]

Originally posted by John Carney:
Its a courtesy. It is respect.

It is good marketing as well.

I always try to have printed programs out on the seats when doing shows in theatres, with as complete credits as possible for all the effects. Titles, names, nationalities, dates, historic lineage and relevance... very detailed.
Always gives me much more coverage in paper reviews, in part because the reviewer can sound clever and knowledgeable quoting from it - and also because they get impressed by learning that there is a development within magic.

[Tom Stone]

Originally posted by Michael Close:
Im trying to track down a credit for the following coin production,

I don't know if this helps, but Davide Costi showed it to me about 15 years ago. It seemed like he had a rather long experience with the move. So, maybe it is of italian or spanish origin?

[Guest]

Michael, see Birth of a Coin, in my book, Close-Up Elegance of Davide Costi, page 117, as this seems like the goal of your quest. Available at www.thecairnpress.com

[Michael Close]

Unfortunately, Birth of a Coin in Davide Costis Close-up Elegance is the start of my quest, not the goal.

On page 118, Mr. Costi writes, I would like to give the credit for the original idea but I cannot remember anybody showing it to me, I think it is just one of those things that you come up with without really looking for it. I remember showing it to back in 1986 to Jeff McBride at the Stresa convention.

This move is recorded in my notebooks as #94, dated May 1976, Hollywood, CA (ten years before Mr. Costi showed it to McBride). My friend Rick Swaney and I attended a magic club meeting and sat in the back of the room. Someone in the club demonstrated this move. I have no recollection of who this person was, or if they claimed the move was their own.

Mr. Costi writes that he would like to give credit for the original idea. Id like to do that as well. It seems that Lou Lancaster is the best bet right now.

[Kevin Baker]

To throw another name into the ring... I'm sure Bob Friedhoffer claims this move.

[Jim Maloney_dup1]

Originally posted by Kevin Baker:
I'm sure Bob Friedhoffer claims this move.

I've seen Bob do it, but I don't recall him ever claiming that it was his. It was a while ago, but I think he even stated that it wasn't his. I'll ask him next time I see him.

-Jim

[Richard Kaufman]

It's certainly possible that Friedhoffer learned it from Lou Lancaster--we were all hanging around at Tannen's and other places in New York in the 1970s.

[Guest]

I've spoken to Bob about this. He independently devised this move , and discovered that Lancaster had preceded him. So credit goes to Lou Lancaster. However, Bob does do it beautifully and has some very nice work on this move that I have certainly not seen elsewhere.

Best,
Derrick

[Guest]

I believe it's Lou Lancaster's move. He showed it to me at Tannens' over thirty years ago, and I do not recall him attributing it to someone else. Lou is very scrupulous about credits and history, and always told me where anything he showed me came from.


Best,

Geoff

[Guest]

Derrick Chung was kind in bringing my name into the fray.

I claim credit for the vanish and the vanish/production cycle.

Lou Lancaster had shown me the production years ago without tipping it.
I played with it and came up with 'a' method of reproducing Lou's effect.
I reverse engineered Lou's production, but...

Whenever Lou would perform the move he would turn his back or go under the table to set it up.

Harry Lorraine took my vanish and production routine and put them into APOCALYPSE. I called 'la Luna' in my lecture notes - my memory fails me as to what Harry called it.

Bob Friedhoffer

[Richard Kaufman]

Okay, everyone's at the party except Lou!

[Joe Pecore]

Originally posted by stenquist1:

Harry Lorraine took my vanish and production routine and put them into APOCALYPSE. I called 'la Luna' in my lecture notes - my memory fails me as to what Harry called it.

Bob Friedhoffer

Would it be:
Apocalypse Vol 11 No 1 Jan 1988
Page 1497 - Eerie Thing (Bob Friedhoffer): slow motion coin vanish and reproduction

[Dustin Stinett]

Davide Costi asked that I post this for him:

Dear Mr. Close,
I would like just to say a few words on "Birth of a coin", I have been performing it and showing it to fellow magicians since 1984, as stated in my book I showed it to Jeff in '86 in Stresa, and probably is in some tapes of mine recorded at the MacMillan conventions. I do not wish to claim that I am the inventor, but believe if honestly speaking I say that I did not see anyone perform it, it is possible as you say to Anthony Brahams that you saw it around 1976.

What I do really appreciate from you is the fact that you go though so much trouble to give proper credit to the inventor... BRAVO!!! If you succeed please let me know so I can give him credit in the future.

I do not shake the hand when I produce the coin BUT the hand is idle and all my ATTENTION AND AMAZEMENT is concentrated on the coin, I am SHARING the beauty and the ILLUSION with the audience. It has been a honor to comunicate with you, if I can help further please let me know.

Davide

PS: Tom Stone, hope to hear from you soon, love to all the Sweedish friends. D.

[Guest]

In Volume 1 of Eccentricks, Charlie Frye teaches that move. He mentions that Michael Ammar showed it to him many years ago.

He gets into that position from Downs Palm, and I'm not quite clear whether the reference to Michael Ammar relates to getting the coin into the required position or to the production of the coin or to both. I think that it refers solely to the production.

Dave

[Guest]

Originally posted by Bob Walder:
I am sure I will get flamed for this but.... I REALLY don't see the need for all the effort that goes into researching credits for this stuff.

Aside from the general principle of respecting the people who created the things you are using to make money, there is another benefit to credits: it helps the reader. If you read a trick of mine that uses a Lou Lancaster move, and you really like the move, you will benefit from knowing that it was Lou's, so that you can maybe look up the original, see what other uses Lou has put it to, find tips on how to do it, etc.

Credits are not just for the benefit of the original creator; they are extremely useful for the reader.


Pete

[Guest]

Mr. Close,
if you could tell me who is the author of the book you are reviewing, (you can also e-mail me if you do not wish to disclose his name in advance, maybe I can see if by chance it was me that showed it to him, either at 4F or during a lecture tour in the US in 2000.
Davide