Ambitious Riser

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Ambitious Riser

Postby Guest » August 24th, 2001, 10:05 am

I am having an extremely difficult time getting this sleight to work. I have the Ray Kosby tape which explains it (briefly). Is there a good explanation in print? Or can anyone please provide me with some tips?

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 24th, 2001, 11:41 am

Sean,
I'm mystified by your comment about "Raise Rise" on Kosby's tape, which I directed. We spent a long time trying to get the camera angles for the description just right, and I think we succeeded. There really isn't a lot more to say about the sleight other than that is is EXTREMELY difficult, and requires a good YEAR of practice before it will look deceptive. It is NOT something everyone will be able to do because it requires such skill.
Good luck!
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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Guest » August 24th, 2001, 12:35 pm

I've tried to learn it from the tape and can not seem to do it. I think I learn sleights better from reading a very detailed description. This was the case with learning both the pinky count and the riffle pass (both of which I use extensively). I'd seen The Tannen's Derek Dingle tape and the A-1 Darwin Ortiz tape but could not understand the actual mechanics behind the sleights until I read the written descriptions (both by you). Any tips? :confused:

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Raj Madhok » August 25th, 2001, 12:03 am

I recall seeing a written explanation of "Raise Rise" in Magical Arts Journal..sorry I can't tell you which one.

This is a difficult sleight I've attempted to master over the past several years (ncluding personal tips from Kosby and Nu who both do it well).It just doesn't flow consistently for me so I've put it aside for now until the cramps go away.

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 25th, 2001, 12:30 am

I think people underestimate just how INCREDIBLY difficult "Raise Rise" is. I can do some very difficult stuff, including my routine "On the Up and Up," which is a rising card routine using Fred Robinson's Ambitious Riser sleight. BUT, it will be a cold day in hell before I can do "Raise Rise." I just gave up!
I'll put it this way ... I've seen lots of people who can do the pass well, but I have only seen two or three people do "Raise Rise" well. Hmmmmmmmmmm
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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Bill Duncan » August 25th, 2001, 2:04 am

Originally posted by Raj Madhok:
I recall seeing a written explanation of "Raise Rise" in Magical Arts Journal..sorry I can't tell you which one.

Raise Rise is on the cover of a Double Issue

June & July 1987 issue Volume One No. Eleven & Twelve

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Larry Horowitz » August 25th, 2001, 4:27 pm

Ray's Riser is a great trick which I no longer find difficult. I gave up! The orthopedic surgeon says the cramped and mangled fingers should someday revert to normal. I hope so, because Ray has plenty of GREAT stuff worth the time and effort.

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Guest » August 26th, 2001, 12:16 am

An explanation of the raise-rise move can be found in Paul Harris' Book The Art of Astonishment Volume 1. It is in the trick "Deep Thought"

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 26th, 2001, 2:53 am

While I generally don't think that video is the best way to learn stuff, "Raise Rise" WILL be easier to learn from the videotape.
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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Matthew Field » August 26th, 2001, 11:05 am

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
While I generally don't think that video is the best way to learn stuff, "Raise Rise" WILL be easier to learn from the videotape.


I have come to the conclusion, expressed to Mr. Kaufman some years ago, that video is best for teaching timing and rope (and rubber band) tricks.

Watch the Jennings videos and see how much (or little) is comprehensible on those beloved tapes.

Matt Field

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Richard James » August 26th, 2001, 12:59 pm

Interesting Topic. However, IMHO, there could be another reason that most people find the trick so difficult to perform - It may be PHYSICALLY impossible for them!

To clarify what I mean, simply have a look at the cover of Kosby tape. Check out the LENGTH of Ray Kosby's pinky ... It's HUGE :eek:


Maybe using a Bridge sized deck will help those that are 'pinky challenged' :D

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Guest » August 26th, 2001, 9:33 pm

I have "Pinky Envy"!

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 26th, 2001, 10:37 pm

Welcome Richard James from Scotland. Let's forget about the length of Ray Kosby's pinky for a moment. I have a smaller than average size hand (about the size of Vernon's hand, I discovered to my shock in 1982) and my little pinky has no trouble getting to the corner of the jogged cards for "On the Up and Up."
Sean: is it "Stinky Pinky" envy?
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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Richard James » August 27th, 2001, 5:16 am

Hi Richard,

I haven't read your routine for, "On the Up and Up" (where is it published?)so I don't know if the following comment is relevant for your routine ... But

The original Fred Robinson move is performed with your left hand in a different position than that used by Ray Grismer.

Fred Robinson's routine, published in Pabular, has the cards held at your fingertips. This makes the move MUCH easier to perform.

For Fred's routine, you only have to hold the deck using your Thumb and Index finger. This leaves your pinky free to easily reach the outjogged corner and it is also easy to move your other fingers out of the way during the move.

By contrast, in the Kosby routine, the pack is held in more or less standard dealing position. This means that your pinky has further to travel. It now has to curl DOWN to reach the corner in the first place. This is, IMHO, what causes such a cramped feeling when trying to perform Ray's superb routine.

Like yourself, I have only ever seen a couple of people that can actually perform the move well enough to use it under fire. That is Ray Kosby himself and Marc Caplan from Scotland. I have been informed that Paul Wilson also does the routine, but I have yet to see him perform it. Maybe I'll ask him to do it next time I see him :-)

All The Best,

Richard James

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 27th, 2001, 11:39 am

On the Up and Up is a separate booklet that went out of print long ago. Perhaps I'll just put the whole thing into Genii one day.
The basic move is Eric Mason's (reinvented by Krenzel and inadvertantly credited to him in the booklet), which appeared an issue or two after Fred's original in Pabular. The deck is held solely by the thumb and first finger at the upper end (since the deck faces the audience), and the pinky does lots of work.
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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Guest » August 31st, 2001, 8:13 pm

Man, I'm glad to read that I'm not the only one that got their asses kicked trying to master Raise Rise. Did I say "master"? Hahahha..what I meant was "do anything remotely resembling Raise Rise". I can't even get the pinky out-jogs, much less do the Ambitious Riser. The difficulty of this move is such that it has acheived ultimate respect status for people that can do it that you meet at conventions...it goes like this:"Can you do the Top Shot?"...then,"Sanky has a KILLER pass...how is yours?", and finally.."Can you do the Raise Rise? No? Well, have you ever met anyone who can?"..hehehe. As far as I know the only other person that can do that move besides Kosby is Paul Wilson....good luck!

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Guest » September 1st, 2001, 8:19 am

Ray Kosby was over here in Ireland a couple of months ago,I was able to meet him at a friends house.He floored everybody by doing Raise-Rise with 2 packs of cards one on top of the other. :)

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Guest » September 4th, 2001, 12:58 pm

i too own the Ray Kosby Tape, and was incredibly impressed by what the man can do... majoritavely it seems to me, with variations on that one 'ambitious riser' move. He has obviously spent much time practising and has gained many effect from this magnificant sleight. But, to qoute Vernon ' Why does 'practise frighten so many people?'. I'm not saying you haven't tried, but how many times have you been stuck on a sleight, and blamed your pinky or something else... only to find a way round it later? See a sleght this powerful as an investment. As Mr Kaufman so correctly states it could take a YEAR. But whats one year out of fifty doing the trick? If you dont want to spend a year then fair enough, there are other equal effects attainable with far less effort, but if you do, put the kettle on, put your feet up and get out those bicycles! :D

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Guest » September 5th, 2001, 6:36 pm

Having mentioned in another post about my attempts at Raise Rise I didnt mention that as I was working on that effect for so long I negleted to watch the remainder of the video.
Having now done so, Ive found that the Flytrap effect seems to help in the learning of the Riser move.
At least now Im getting something resembling an outjogged card. (Now! If I can just get my damn forefinger to work in the squaring movement at the front of the cards at the same time. :) )

[ September 05, 2001: Message edited by: Ronnie ]

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Carl Mercurio » September 14th, 2001, 4:08 pm

I've been using the Eric Mason card rise for some time for walkaround and think it is a fantastic move. And not really difficult at all. The kid from Germany's Flicking Fingers, The Little Green Lecture Notes, I can see his face but forget his name, does the move in a four-ace production with the aces separated by a faro.

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Pete McCabe » September 14th, 2001, 4:25 pm

Add Chad Long to the extremely short list of people who can do Raise Rise perfectly.

The first time I ever saw the move was Chad doing it just for me while playing pool at a bar. I was entirely baffled, of course. How could you even imagine what he's doing -- it seems completely impossible even when you know exactly how it's done.

Chad can also do the notoriously difficult S.W.E Elevator effect from Chris Kenner's "Out of Control" equally well. I wonder if Chad is the only person in the world who can do both.

While we were there, a waiter came over to take our drink order, saw the end of some trick, and asked if one of us (Me, Chad, and Bill Malone) would do a trick for him.

Well, it was either Chad or Bill(!) and Chad went. He fanned the deck for the spectator to merely think of a card. Chad pulled the king of spades from the deck -- is this your card? No.

Chad put the KS on the pool table. What was your card? The Three of Hearts.

Chad blew on the back of the KS and it flipped over. It was the three of Hearts.

After the stunned waiter went off, Bill asked Chad how he was able to make the card flip over just by blowing on it. Chad said he didn't know -- it just came to him, he tried it, and it worked.

The three of us spent the next 15 minutes blowing at cards, trying to get them to flip over. I'm pretty sure none of us succeeded even once.

Pete

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Guest » September 14th, 2001, 5:35 pm

Carl,

I believe you are thinking of Pit Hartling.

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Carl Mercurio » September 14th, 2001, 5:40 pm

Mark,
Thanks, yes, I just blanked on the guy.

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Guest » October 12th, 2001, 6:43 am

I can't help but notice that Chad long is emerging as a serious heavywieght at magic. He seems to have the full package. Killer tech, great personality and direct effects. I wish I was Chad long.

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 12th, 2001, 9:18 am

The idea of doing the Eric Mason Rising Card sleight using four Aces separated by Faro Shuffle is Earl Nelson's and appeared many years ago in Richard's Almanac.
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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Carl Mercurio » October 12th, 2001, 9:30 am

Richard,
There is another variation of the Eric Mason card rise in which two perfectly squared cards are pushed up by the pinky. An indifferent card is at the face hiding the selected card, which is then switched out. Who gets the credit on this idea?

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Guest » October 12th, 2001, 8:12 pm

Originally posted by Carl Mercurio:
Richard,
There is another variation of the Eric Mason card rise in which two perfectly squared cards are pushed up by the pinky. An indifferent card is at the face hiding the selected card, which is then switched out. Who gets the credit on this idea?


Carl --
I don't know the Eric Mason move, but what you described sounds a lot what I've been doing for decades (oh God, I'm not exaggerating!) with the two-handed plunger rise. I've found it's a cinch to make two cards rise together, either perfectly registered or with the rear card slightly lower and easily squared up. Sets up a great sucker gag.

--Ralph

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 12th, 2001, 8:34 pm

Carl,
What you're talking about sounds like a combination of The Eric Mason rising card move done with a double card, followed by the ancient Push-In Change. No one can, or should, make such an obvious claim.
On the other hand, there is a visual change in the original On the Up and Up booklet by Krenzel, where you push up a single card--the wrong card--and then you rapidly (faster than the eye can see) push up another card in front of it. This is one of the most eye-popping things I've ever performed.
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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Guest » April 4th, 2002, 7:41 am

By the way, I believe the photo on the cover of Impossible Card Magic is someone elses hand. I have a normal length pinky.

Ray

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 4th, 2002, 9:07 am

C'mon Kosby, we all know that your pinky is about three feet long.
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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Guest » April 4th, 2002, 4:29 pm

That's why its called IMPOSSIBLE card magic

Kosby has the perfect magic marketing idea. Create a fantastic move that looks great that can be sold and taught to thousands but few will make it commomplace and old because it is so hard. ;)

I have spent a few months trying hard to get Raise Rise down and have had little luck. However, the video is clear and goes into more then enough detail from several angles.

The only detail I have missed is the skill.

It is joining the muscle pass and hot shot card in the 'I suck' basket.

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Rise Rise?

Postby Steve S » August 18th, 2017, 5:45 pm

This is a very old thread so I am extending its life...perhaps. I would really like to find a copy of the pamphlet, 'On the Up and UP', 1978, Richard Kaufman. It is supposed to describe the definitive work on Fred Robinson's Ambitious Riser Move. A friend of mine performed 'Rise Rise', for me a few days ago, which I think is published in 'On the Up and UP'. I met Richard Kaufman this past week at MAGIC Live, 2017 and he told me it might be hard to find. If anyone can steer me in a direction for find a copy, I would appreciate it immensely.

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby erdnasephile » August 18th, 2017, 5:50 pm

If you are a Castle member and you wish to see "Raise Rise" in action by it's creator (PLUS an unpublished killer ending), see the Members Section of the AMA website and look under "From the Library--Video Series", Episode 15.

Dude still has the goods!

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Re: Rise Rise?

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 18th, 2017, 8:42 pm

Steve S wrote:This is a very old thread so I am extending its life...perhaps. I would really like to find a copy of the pamphlet, 'On the Up and UP', 1978, Richard Kaufman. It is supposed to describe the definitive work on Fred Robinson's Ambitious Riser Move. A friend of mine performed 'Rise Rise', for me a few days ago, which I think is published in 'On the Up and UP'. I met Richard Kaufman this past week at MAGIC Live, 2017 and he told me it might be hard to find. If anyone can steer me in a direction for find a copy, I would appreciate it immensely.


The Uprising DVD by Richard Sanders details much from the On The Up and Up booklet. The booklet describes an in the hands card rise. Kosby's method is harder and uses the move in the context of an ambitious card routine--not a card rise.

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby JHostler » August 20th, 2017, 10:35 am

Apologies for the "topic creep," but with the millions (literally, millions) of pages of magic in print, what psychological imperative compels us to invest months or years in others' moves - largely (if not exclusively) to impress other magicians? That year of practice could be put to much better use... at very least in developing and mastering NEW niche sleights.

Ray's thing is Ray's thing.

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 20th, 2017, 12:20 pm

The routine in "On the Up and Up" alllows you to do a Rising Card routine with three freely chosen cards. The third comes up back toward audience and then visibly turns around. It looks exactly like a routine with a gimmicked deck, except you can borrow the deck.

Hostler: why wouldn't people want to learn that?

"Raise Rise" by Kosby is an entirely different effect. It's mind-blowing to watching, and murderous to do.
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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 20th, 2017, 12:21 pm

JHostler wrote:Apologies for the "topic creep," but with the millions (literally, millions) of pages of magic in print, what psychological imperative compels us to invest months or years in others' moves - largely (if not exclusively) to impress other magicians? That year of practice could be put to much better use... at very least in developing and mastering NEW niche sleights.

Ray's thing is Ray's thing.


It's an interesting move that creates the illusion of the outjogged card gradually rising up the deck to the top. It looks clean and beautiful when done correctly. The spectators can see the magic as it happens in this instance. Unfortunately, it's a knuckle or pinky? buster. The Pass also takes a long time to master, yet Jim Swain extolled its virtues in a recent issue of Genii. Sure, more progress can be made in other areas of magic in terms of improvement, but then everything in Life is a trade off.

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby JHostler » August 20th, 2017, 12:53 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:
JHostler wrote:Apologies for the "topic creep," but with the millions (literally, millions) of pages of magic in print, what psychological imperative compels us to invest months or years in others' moves - largely (if not exclusively) to impress other magicians? That year of practice could be put to much better use... at very least in developing and mastering NEW niche sleights.

Ray's thing is Ray's thing.


It's an interesting move that creates the illusion of the outjogged card gradually rising up the deck to the top. It looks clean and beautiful when done correctly. The spectators can see the magic as it happens in this instance. Unfortunately, it's a knuckle or pinky? buster. The Pass also takes a long time to master, yet Jim Swain extolled its virtues in a recent issue of Genii. Sure, more progress can be made in other areas of magic in terms of improvement, but then everything in Life is a trade off.


I agree, in part... but Father Time rules. Point taken to an extreme: Imagine if every magician was hellbent on mastering every move in Erdnase. How much would the art have progressed since 1902? Yes, the pass does require a significant investment - but it's also an infinitely more useful tool than RR. To be clear, I'm not suggesting anyone ignore the hard stuff... just that narrow-bandwidth knucklebusters may not yield decent benefit/cost relative to thousands of other options.

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 20th, 2017, 1:02 pm

Absolutely JH, there's no point in working on Kosby's move if the Ambitious Card is not in your repertoire, an effect I dropped many years ago. The Pass will give you more mileage in the long run, as Swain pointed out.

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Re: Ambitious Riser

Postby erdnasephile » August 20th, 2017, 6:45 pm

JHostler wrote:
Leonard Hevia wrote:
JHostler wrote:Apologies for the "topic creep," but with the millions (literally, millions) of pages of magic in print, what psychological imperative compels us to invest months or years in others' moves - largely (if not exclusively) to impress other magicians? That year of practice could be put to much better use... at very least in developing and mastering NEW niche sleights.

Ray's thing is Ray's thing.


It's an interesting move that creates the illusion of the outjogged card gradually rising up the deck to the top. It looks clean and beautiful when done correctly. The spectators can see the magic as it happens in this instance. Unfortunately, it's a knuckle or pinky? buster. The Pass also takes a long time to master, yet Jim Swain extolled its virtues in a recent issue of Genii. Sure, more progress can be made in other areas of magic in terms of improvement, but then everything in Life is a trade off.


I agree, in part... but Father Time rules. Point taken to an extreme: Imagine if every magician was hellbent on mastering every move in Erdnase. How much would the art have progressed since 1902? Yes, the pass does require a significant investment - but it's also an infinitely more useful tool than RR. To be clear, I'm not suggesting anyone ignore the hard stuff... just that narrow-bandwidth knucklebusters may not yield decent benefit/cost relative to thousands of other options.


Agree with both you and Leo. Utility moves, or even more importantly, utility routines are a far more practical way to spend one's limited practice time.

However, in magic--a field obsessed with secrets--there's seems to be this undercurrent of: "I know something you don't" which sometimes translates to: "I can do something you can't". This extends to not only laypersons, but also compeers. That may be the "psychological imperative" of which you speak that compels us to try to ride these unicorns.

Further, the close relative, "I have something you don't", is why we jump at limited editions and/or pay $42K for a bundle of old letters.


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