Femme Fatale

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
Will Jung
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Joined: January 4th, 2015, 10:13 am
Favorite Magician: Ponta The Smith

Femme Fatale

Postby Will Jung » January 19th, 2015, 2:58 pm

Here's a routine I've been working on that is influenced by Dorian Rhodell's "Recon" off of his Avenue DVD:




Please let me know what you think!

Aaron Sterling
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Joined: December 21st, 2014, 1:42 pm

Re: Femme Fatale

Postby Aaron Sterling » January 19th, 2015, 3:39 pm

I've gotten the strong impression that my views on magic are not standard in this forum, so you should know that lots of people might disagree with me here. But hey, I'm hanging out on the internet today, so here's what I think.

1. You can't hand out the cards at the end. So you're performing a routine that will surprise or amaze, but not one that is magical. If you speak Spanish, you can listen to Tamariz explain the issue at the end of this video: http://youtu.be/zXsQCilD3mI He's talking about Oil and Water, but the concept translates to any effect that involves lots of instant changes. I'm not making a criticism of the effect, because spectacle and surprise can be just as entertaining as magic, but understand that's where the routine is located psychologically. If you want a magic moment without handing out the cards, you usually need something much faster, which begins and ends before people can start trying to analyze what is going on.

2. The first moment happens at about 0:44, halfway through your video. I think that the first moment has to occur at three seconds into the effect -- crack a joke, make an "unnecessary" flourish, something like that. Build suspense later, once the audience is sure they are going to be entertained. You don't want the audience suspenseful about whether they are going to like the effect. You want them certain they will like it, and suspenseful about what awesome thing is going to happen. So there's a big gap between that concept of audience management and what you're doing on the video.

3. This last point isn't a fair criticism yet, because you're practicing moves to music. But going forward you might want to think about: Why does the effect matter? Why isn't it so-what magic?

And look, I've sent around proof-of-concept videos that were crappy, that failed all these tests. But sometimes there was a kernel of something interesting that could be built on. So please don't be disheartened by this comment. I wouldn't have typed this out if I didn't like your video. Good luck.

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Femme Fatale

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 19th, 2015, 3:54 pm

How does this improve upon the Dingle "quick three way" material from a while back?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Brad Henderson
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Re: Femme Fatale

Postby Brad Henderson » January 19th, 2015, 4:14 pm

Use real playing cards. How can I experience a change when I am not sure what we began with. I know odd designed cards are all the rage, but you are attempting to do something extraordinary with something ordinary. Play to my experiences and expectations. That queen is completely unfamiliar to anything i have ever seen and when you show me the cards you removed, I honestly have no idea what I am looking at.

Second, when you chose to not use your words you run the risk of losing a lot of information which can enhance the effect. Are you taking out special cards? do you know what they will be in advance? are they random? does it matter?

In this context I think you would be better served removing specific cards from the face up spread. maybe 4 spot cards and one court. not only is it clearer that the cards have changed to the one court card, the contrast to the aces is even greater. Make it intentional. Show the cards to be different. Remove four spots, one court. Do the 3 way type sequence and show the change.

Ignore the nonsense about something happening in 3 seconds. Do not tell a joke. Telling a joke (as per Tamariz - I can name drop too!) kills the build up. This trick is so short you don't have the luxury for that. And adding a flourish would kill the sense of magic - unless your goal is to demonstrate skill. In which case there are better ways to demonstrate that than this particular effect.

Also, young Aaron is taking a very small slice of Tamariz and misapplying it. He also is perhaps unaware how easy it is to cop a card or two.

finally, i do not find the add on under the cards to be convincing at all. It is obvious you are doing something. In truth, the vernon strip out addition makes more sense. (Beme has a clever variation in the trap doors that could also be used perhaps.) Now, I know you are working to the crowd that is watching a video and doing so carefully - but think about it - your choice is only relevant to people who know things like the strip out, and those people are going to know exactly what you are doing because the action is not completely natural. You are not gaining anything via the cleverness. Rather than hiding the method, you are putting a spotlight on it.

Aaron Sterling
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Re: Femme Fatale

Postby Aaron Sterling » January 19th, 2015, 4:22 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:Ignore the nonsense about something happening in 3 seconds. Do not tell a joke. Telling a joke (as per Tamariz - I can name drop too!) kills the build up. This trick is so short you don't have the luxury for that. And adding a flourish would kill the sense of magic - unless your goal is to demonstrate skill. In which case there are better ways to demonstrate that than this particular effect.

Aren't the first 30 seconds intended to simulate a spectator choosing the queen of spades "at random?" That's what I thought. In which case, that really lasts a few minutes. The buildup really starts when he puts the deck down, seems to me. That's the Slydini "Watch!" moment.

ETA: I'm pretty sure what's happening is that we are critiquing different effects. I understood the video as the performer forcing first the QS, then other cards, and then putting the deck down and concluding with a packet trick using those chosen cards. So the whole thing lasts a lot longer than 1:40. I thought the OP was demo-ing the choreography with all beats and motivation removed. If the trick really is performed in real life in under two minutes, then I agree with you. But if it's intended to be performed in 7 minutes in real life, I wouldn't be surprised if you agreed with me.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Femme Fatale

Postby Brad Henderson » January 19th, 2015, 5:23 pm

why would the queen need to be forced? not in this handling it doesn't be.

dramatically is there any advantage to that card being either free or unknown to the performer? the effect is the cards change. does it matter if it the changing card was freely chosen, is unknown?

and it takes minutes to have a card picked?????

do you charge by the hour?

you need one line to hook and engage the audience. The effect is a simple one. Too ponderous of a presentation and your lose the impact.

Now I would spring board on your slydini comment and suggest this routine lacks a magical moment. how are the cards changing (allegedly)? a snap - a wave - something should convey the moment of magic.

but I do not think you need a magical moment or flourish in the first 30 seconds - regardless of the routine.

Aaron Sterling
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Re: Femme Fatale

Postby Aaron Sterling » January 19th, 2015, 5:58 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:and it takes minutes to have a card picked?????

Ha! I saw a card picked, then put back in the deck, then 4 more cards picked, perhaps by different people each time. And yes, that would take a while. But maybe I'm off base. Perhaps the OP will clarify.

Other than that, I really think we're saying similar things. When I said the first moment has to happen in the first three seconds, I meant moment in the sense of "reason to pay attention and expect something cool is going to happen." Some performers might use a jokey flourish, others might use something else. That's what I hear you saying with the word hook. I've more often heard moment, or even lpm, as a generalization of laughs per minute.

About the free/unknown choice question: I like your suggested plot better than what I see in the video, because the video can telegraph that the performer has control over the face down cards, because how else would he have gotten into the perfect position to start the routine. So choosing them out of the face up deck feels more fair, and I agree with you there too.

Will Jung
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Re: Femme Fatale

Postby Will Jung » January 19th, 2015, 6:15 pm

I really appreciate the constructive criticism that you guys are giving me. I am not disheartened by them at all, for they will only help me.

Aaron, I disagree with you regarding that an effect is not magical because the final "product" cannot be handed out. I've performed many times using cards, coins, etc. where my audience didn't really care to examine my "props" at the end. To me, it depends on the situation and what kind of audience you're performing for. Of course, in a room full of hecklers, giving them something they can examine would definitely be more magical for them.

I do not like to crack jokes or flourish during my effects. I don't look down upon people do so, but I just personally don't like to. And also, I did not force any cards in this routine.

Jonathan, I've watched many performances of the "Quick Three Way" material. My goal was not to improve the plot, but to offer my handling.

Brad, thank you again for giving me your thoughts on another one of my video. I do understand that using an unconventional deck of cards will be confusing to a lay audience. I was practicing with this deck and simply used it because it was convenient for me.

I originally recorded patter for this video, but I decided to do away with it. I added the music to give my video a certain feel. Using patter to guide my audience through the routine is definitely important, but I do not feel that it was absolutely necessary for this upload because I did it just for fun.

Your suggestion about the Vernon Strip Out made me slap myself on the forehead. I don't know why I didn't think about using it (since Dorian uses it in his original routine). I will definitely be trying that out from now on.

Aaron Sterling
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Re: Femme Fatale

Postby Aaron Sterling » January 19th, 2015, 7:37 pm

You're welcome, and I'm glad Brad Henderson gave you material you can use. I have to admit, I'm a bit dissuaded from commenting on a future video you might post, because you posted to an international message board a video you made "for fun" using a deck that was "convenient."

If you want quality feedback, why not post your best work? Brad Henderson and I had a disagreement that was completely avoidable. Maybe he and I would have disagreed over something else -- that seems to happen -- but I'd rather have a situation where we agree on the facts and disagree on how to analyze them, instead of going off in different directions because we think the facts are different.

Will Jung
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Joined: January 4th, 2015, 10:13 am
Favorite Magician: Ponta The Smith

Re: Femme Fatale

Postby Will Jung » January 19th, 2015, 8:19 pm

Just because I posted a video for fun, doesn't mean it isn't my best work. Before the advice that I received from you all today, the video shows EXACTLY how I would have done it at my best. Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't post a video up if I didn't feel that I performed my effect(s)/routines in an acceptable manner. (This video was probably the 5th take I did today because I wasn't satisfied with the other four).

As for the "convenience" of me using a deck of Viginia Slims, I simply wanted to shoot a video of a routine I've been working on. I'm not being paid to do so. Am I really required to use a "standard" deck in order to receive quality feedback?

Aaron Sterling
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Joined: December 21st, 2014, 1:42 pm

Re: Femme Fatale

Postby Aaron Sterling » January 19th, 2015, 8:40 pm

Will Jung wrote:Am I really required to use a "standard" deck in order to receive quality feedback?

I'm nobody, at least I'm nobody on the magic internet. But Brad Henderson was one of the handful of magicians interviewed for the Our Magic movie, and he couldn't tell exactly what you were doing because you were using cards that were hard for him to read. So do whatever you wish, but I know that if I wanted to ask someone in that category to critique an effect I'd created, I would ask him what presentation format was most convenient for him, and then shoot the video in whatever way he wanted, instead of taking shortcuts.

Also, just fyi, reshooting a video 5 times does not sound like a high number to me. In video practice, I've reshot effects hundreds of times, and I'm sure there are people on this board who have shot the same effect thousands of times.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Femme Fatale

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 19th, 2015, 9:52 pm

If people can't easily "read" the playing cards you're using, it really doesn't matter what you do. Lack of clarity = no effect. Fancy playing cards are good to collect, but not good to perform with.
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Will Jung
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Re: Femme Fatale

Postby Will Jung » January 19th, 2015, 9:56 pm

Again Aaron, your feedback mean a lot to me and will help along the way. I don't get paid for my YouTube videos. Like I said before, the video shot was me performing that routine at my best at that time. Reshooting it a hundred times would've given me more practice on it, but that's what I do in front of the mirror. And besides, I get more "practice" (if you will), performing in front of live audiences than I do for YouTubers. That's my priority, not online videos. Of course, performing live is way different than performing for the camera. A digital audience will view it differently than a live audience and I accept that.

I put this video up for people to give me feedback if they had the time and generosity. I am glad Brad was able to critique my video, but I didn't put this video up here exclusively for him. I wanted critique from anyone who wanted to critique me. If this video was just for Brad, then you wouldn't have given me your two cents, right?

Mr. Kaufman, I understand. I've never performed for an audience with a non-standard deck before. I just happened to use it for this video and didn't think about the clarity issue. Thank you for your feedback.

IanLand
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Re: Femme Fatale

Postby IanLand » January 20th, 2015, 6:58 am

The weird deck was the first thing that struck me too, and I also struggled with it, but that point has already been well enough made.

The effect is promising, but a bit muddy as it stands. Essentially it's a double transposition (4 X-cards into 4 copies of a selection then into 4 Aces). I think it would work better if it was done much faster, with much less "handling" needed (the sequential lifts to show the first transpo seem to me to be an example of a lot of handling, and the count which supposedly supports what the lifts have shown has never been a favourite of mine). If it was me I'd go all out for clarity of effect and either gaff it or use duplicates to make the initial transpo fuss-free, and if necessary throw in a clean up phase at the end to leave everything examinable.

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Femme Fatale

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 20th, 2015, 8:03 am

If you've got working mechanics for a trick - say Hofzinser's Everywhere and Nowhere - see what your handling of the trick brings audiences.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time


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