Bottom Deals (Gene Maze, Mechanics Grip)

[Joey Moriarty]

Hi,

two videos focusing on Bottom Dealing:


Gene Maze Bottom Deal:



Mechanics Grip Bottom Deal:



Joey

[Daniel T]

Very smooth. Nice rythm and naturalness.

Good job

[Bill Mullins]

I agree with Daniel's comments. However, your middle finger on your right hand is a tell -- it moves differently when you pull from the bottom than when you take from the top.

I need to video my own bottom deal and see if the same thing happens with me.

[Daniel T]

You're right about that Bill. But I can't imagine a layman pointing that out. I think only magicians will notice that in real action. It's very minor. Maybe I am wrong though

[erdnasephile]

You're right about that Bill. But I can't imagine a layman pointing that out. I think only magicians will notice that in real action. It's very minor. Maybe I am wrong though

DT: The OP bills himself as a "card mechanic" on his YouTube channel. He also posts demonstrations of named gambling moves, so I think Bill's comment is fair game, as such a posture invites close scrutiny of the technique.

In terms of lay audiences, if your presentation involves: "Here's how I can deal cards off the bottom of the deck imperceptibly", then one might expect a layperson to focus their attention right where the dirty work is going to be done. Therefore, in this context, an intelligent layperson may notice the discrepancy.

Finally, I assume someone bold enough to assume the label of "card mechanic" is at least implying they are able to move in a real game. People playing for money are far tougher audiences and a tell has potentially more dire consequences.

(IMHO, OP has a very nice bottom deal, but to my eye, the bigger tell in the first video is the left ring finger extension. Not trying to be hater, but I assume the videos were posted here to elicit comments.)

[Joey Moriarty]

Finally, I assume someone bold enough to assume the label of "card mechanic" is at least implying they are able to move in a real game.

Uhm, no? I can't find anything wrong with calling myself a "card mechanic". I'm not claiming to be a "card cheat" or a "gambling expert". I'm none of those. I'm someone that's able to perform a couple of moves pretty well.

If you think I'm not "worthy" of labeling myself a "mechanic" than it's your good right to think so. But I beg to differ. I don't see how my Second Deals are any worse than those from the big guys.

Joey

[erdnasephile]

Mr. Moriarty:

I wish to publicly apologize for offending you with my comments.

My statement was in reply to the previous exchange regarding the relative importance of a tell. I wanted to make the point that a tell when cheating in a real game is a much bigger deal than in a performance, not as a comment on your worthiness.

I had assumed (wrongly, it appears) what you meant by the title of "card mechanic." I interpret the term "card mechanic" to mean someone who actually cheats using technical skill with cards (which is someone who would probably have zero tolerance of tells since their livelihood (and life) may depend on it).

In any event, I am sorry for the offense I caused you.

[Richard Kaufman]

Any "tells" are bad: laymen DO notice things like fingers that flick out and attract attention, even if on a subconscious level. They have a feeling that something is fishy.

[Bill Mullins]

Any "tells" are bad: laymen DO notice things like fingers that flick out and attract attention, even if on a subconscious level. They have a feeling that something is fishy.

Exactly. My first impression was "something's a little off". I had to watch it a couple of times to figure out what it was.

[Joey Moriarty]

Exactly. My first impression was "something's a little off". I had to watch it a couple of times to figure out what it was.

In your above post you mentioned that you deal bottoms yourself. So you're familiar with the importance of the finger positions during bottom dealing. Also you're familiar with the types of grips, you know what a mechanics grip is and what an erdnase grip looks like. And with that knowledge it still took you "a couple of times" watching a HD video that you can rewind and pause and that is filmed in a way such that the focus is entirely on my hands, to figure out what is wrong.

Given the fact that a layman doesn't know the difference between the different types of grips and doesn't know what to look for in a bottom deal, I would consider my tells as "minimal".

Don't get me wrong. I'm far from a good bottom deal but I think that sometimes the guys "in the known" pay a little too much attention to the very details.
In my opinion the most important thing in a bottom deal is the rythm. None of you mentioned that. And after watching the video myself for over a dozen times I can clearly see that the rythm is still a bit off on my take.
For me that is a much bigger tell than the excact finger positions on my take.

Fun fact:

http://youtu.be/1Zx90tBX21g?t=1m32s

Do you notice something in his deal?


Joey

[Richard Kaufman]

You're pretty cocky and defensive about your work. You should work on your false deals until there are no more tells. Don't argue about it with us. If we see it, other people--the laymen you think are so unobservant--will also see them.

[mrgoat]

It's kinda like he's just saying:

[Joey Moriarty]

You should work on your false deals until there are no more tells. Don't argue about it with us.

I wasn't saying that I don't have tells. I was saying that you guys focus on a tell that is in my opinion very minimal (I tried to illustrate it with the forte video) and that a much bigger tell is my rythm. If that kind of discussion isn't welcome here than you're right and I rather go practicing.

If we see it, other people--the laymen you think are so unobservant--will also see them.

So far I didn't get called out for it when I used the deal in performance. So it can't be as bad as you guys are trying to make it.

@ mrgoat:
Very classy. Instead of trying to make fun of me you could atleast read my post. The point I was trying to make isn't something that I'm alone with.

Joey

[mrgoat]

I wasn't saying that I don't have tells. I was saying that you guys focus on a tell that is in my opinion very minimal

And other people's opinions was that it *is* important. But you don't think so. Cool. Carry on as you are. Really no point asking for opinions, getting them, then arrogantly saying people are wrong. If you don't want opinions, don't ask for them. You remind me of Vinny at the green place.

If we see it, other people--the laymen you think are so unobservant--will also see them.

So far I didn't get called out for it when I used the deal in performance. So it can't be as bad as you guys are trying to make it.

Or maybe, just maybe, your audience were just polite. Not many people will interrupt you in a performance and say "I don't know what you did there, but frankly something looked a little off".

If you're happy with being a little off, then great. If it works for you, then perfect. Carry on.

@ mrgoat:
Very classy. Instead of trying to make fun of me you could atleast read my post.

I did read it. Hence me mocking you.

The point I was trying to make isn't something that I'm alone with.

Indeed not. But it is something people here are choosing to disagree with.

I am sure if you post this over in The Workers section at the cafe, loads of teenage idiots will tell you that you are awesome. Seems maybe you are after that, rather than constructive, and very polite criticism.

All the best.

[Joey Moriarty]

Really no point asking for opinions

Where was I asking for opinions? I post my videos here because I was asked by Tom Frame to share my videos with the genii community aswell.

arrogantly saying people are wrong.

I said that I disagree and tried to explain my reasoning, I didn't say everyone was wrong.

Or maybe, just maybe, your audience were just polite. Not many people will interrupt you in a performance and say "I don't know what you did there, but frankly something looked a little off".

You can't judge my performances because you haven't seen it. Dunno why you're so desperately trying to put me down but that's just a stupid argument.

If you're happy with being a little off, then great. If it works for you, then perfect. Carry on.

Where did I say that I'm happy with having an off rythm? I said exactly the opposite.

Indeed not. But it is something people here are choosing to disagree with.

I see. However nonone posted valid arguments about the video of Forte I posted yet. In the video you can clearly see the finger movement (and the different take that you guys critized in my deal so much) and yet it's a great bottom deal because the rythm is just on point. In my opinion this video proves my point. Please proof me wrong though.

I am sure if you post this over in The Workers section at the cafe, loads of teenage idiots will tell you that you are awesome. Seems maybe you are after that, rather than constructive, and very polite criticism.

Yes your criticism is indeed very polite. Since you seem to like it to call me arrogant: Labelling the café community as "teenage idiots" is really humble.

[erdnasephile]

Since comments regarding the Forte video are being invited, I would respectfully suggest the following:

1. Mr. Forte has several different bottom deals. I've seen him demonstrate more effectively than the example cited above.

2. Yes, rhythm is of paramount importance. However, it's not the only thing important about performing the move, I'm sure all would agree. Are the details we are talking about small--absolutely--but it's the details that make for perfection.

3. A tell is a tell no matter if it is done by Forte, Vernon, or me. (Thanks, Mr. Evans!) Therefore, what one magician's bottom deal looks like really doesn't affect an objective evaluation of another (or mine).

4. While left finger flashing is a common flaw, it is possible to minimize it to a greater degree than in the videos cited above. For example:




(This trailer is rather brief--Mr. England's technique is better experienced by watching his Fundamentals series)

I have also had the pleasure of watching Richard Turner's bottom deal at point blank range from a highly unfavorable angle and couldn't see much of anything no matter how hard I looked.

5. Even though people I really admire have tells (however small), the ideal goal I shoot for is to have none. I may not make it, but I do not wish to use their flaws to justify mine. (I don't ever like to say: "It's just good enough", and I suspect I'm not alone as many card guys are pretty obsessive).

6. Of course, in a magic performance, misdirection provides valuable insurance for the inevitable technical flaws. Is it possible to fool the laity with less than perfect technique? Sure--but I'd rather have great misdirection AND great technique.

[Joey Moriarty]

@ erdnasephile:

Those are points that I can work with. Thank you for taking the time to write all of that down.

Joey