Ripped & Fryed - source?

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Chris Aguilar » April 19th, 2012, 2:20 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:WJ's routine comes complete with his scripting for the trick. As do most other items in his book.

Have you seen Gile's Contortionist? That's the one that got me interested in the Card Warp plot again.

No but I did finally get a chance to see Bill Goodwin's take on the plot. The public demo is dreadful, but when seen in its entirety, his take is interesting. It's not (in my view) better than "green warp" or the Cervon variants of the standard plot, but certainly worth checking out for fans of the plot.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 19th, 2012, 2:27 pm

Chris, I believe the performance segment of Giles's Contortionist is online. At least I recall linking to that once in another thread a while ago. Have a look - it's got some impressive moments.

This might be it: www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx6r4YvXz3A

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby mrgoat » April 19th, 2012, 2:48 pm

I've always liked Close's version with the 2 dollar bill.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Chris Aguilar » April 19th, 2012, 3:22 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Chris, I believe the performance segment of Giles's Contortionist is online. At least I recall linking to that once in another thread a while ago. Have a look - it's got some impressive moments.

This might be it: www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx6r4YvXz3A

Thanks for the link. It's a very logical way to get into the actual warping of the card. Looks very much like a playing card version of Harbin's "Zig Zag Lady".

That's not the whole routine though correct? Or are the additional phases pretty much the standard finish?

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 19th, 2012, 3:33 pm

I can't see youtube videos while at work. The routine starts with the "zig zag" or shimy, has both folded and unfolded inversions and ends with the card in three parts on the table. Google should index to a complete performance video on YouTube.

Check his channel: http://youtube.ng/user/michaeldg123

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 19th, 2012, 3:40 pm

One of the most obvious ways to remove the taint of CardWarp being exposed to laypeople is to start by having the two cards chosen from a deck. This was Gene Maze's idea: the entire lower half of the deck is pre-torn. It's easy to guide the spectator to select one card from the upper half and one card from the lower. Others have published this idea, but it originated with Gene Maze and can be verified by several folks who saw Gene do this at the Governor Cafeteria in New York City years before it was published by another.

The pre-torn deck can be used for many tricks before you get to Card Warp.
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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 19th, 2012, 4:08 pm

RK, that approach works more generally where you have a few such items in the pack (aMazing? (tm)?) designed so you decide what item to perform based upon what card they name. Some cards set for Giles's routine and others setup for related varients including something nice of Jordan Cotler's would make this a winner for workers. May as well set up for a couple of Don England's tricks there too. ;)
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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Ross Welford » April 20th, 2012, 6:57 am

I'm not a pro, so perform less than some of you guys, but I have never EVER encountered anyone who has seen Cardwarp before, or looked it up on the internet.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » April 20th, 2012, 9:41 am

All the discussion over the years and Richards insistence that Gene Maze came up with the Cardwarp Deck Idea before Darwin Ortiz is really a moot point. If we all agree that the first to publish gets the credit then both Ortiz and Maze are out of the running. In 1978 Jim Klayder published the first reference to it in "Ideas for the Card Warp" from the manuscript called "Watch Closely."

In it he pre-tears 26 cards and alternates torn with un-torn cards and places them back in the case which he has torn in half and is placed in his pocket for easy access to the pairs of cards.

Case closed...

BTW this information was first brought up during this discussion on this website by Curtis Kam, but everyone purposely ignored it.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby mrgoat » April 20th, 2012, 9:44 am

Jeff Pierce Magic wrote: If we all agree that the first to publish gets the credit


Who agrees that?

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Tom Frame » April 20th, 2012, 9:52 am

Chris Aguilar wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote:@Chris, the display strategies are different. IMHO the hypercard is so strange looking that even if unstapled and unwound it would not explain the rest of the trick. Again, IMHO the moment you open up the cards at the end takes care fo that idea for them.

Ah, I see. How does WJ justify the oddity at the end? I doubt I'd purchase his whole book just for that one routine, but it certainly does sound intriguing.

I wonder if the "son of hypercard" (which uses a gaff and I believe is a variant of the WJ routine) is similarly immune to being unwound after the fact (via the spectator owning the gaffed card).


Chris, at the conclusion of Son of Hyperwarp, I mount the hypercard on an acetate base (bearing my contact information) and give it to the participant to keep. It's a terrific give-away.

If the participant later peels the hypercard off of the base and unfolds it, she is still left with a warped card, due to the gaff's design.

Unlike Wesley's version, my hypercard is visually correct from all angles. And the raised "sail" itself is also warped.

Thanks for your interest.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby mrgoat » April 20th, 2012, 9:54 am

Wonderful idea for a giveaway - thanks for sharing. Do you get the acetate engraved?

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » April 20th, 2012, 10:03 am

It's generally acceptable in the magic publishing industry that the first to publish an idea gains the credit. That's of course unless it does not fit your needs. While not everyone agrees with this, it seems to be the most logical form of verification. Looking back over the many discussions about this situation, most agree, including Maze that Ortiz gets the credit because of publishing. So if this acceptable to most as the best form of verification then my post above changes everything, and this will be reflected in my book.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Tom Frame » April 20th, 2012, 10:14 am

Damian,

The base is cut from a thin but sturdy sheet of acetate. I stick a small, adhesive label that looks like a business card to the base. Adhesive is applied the the base in just the right spots.

I perform the card warp phase in which I remove the cover card to display that the card is really warped on both sides. Then I create the hypercard, stick it to the base and give it to the participant.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » April 20th, 2012, 10:23 am

I love Tom's routine and have a funny story about the sheet of acetate in the book!

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Tom Frame » April 20th, 2012, 10:27 am

Thanks Jeff.

Tell the folks the story, if you dare.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 20th, 2012, 10:30 am

Okay, the first published use of that approach to setup Card Warp was...

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » April 20th, 2012, 10:30 am

Tom I think I'll leave my shame for the book, LOL!

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » April 20th, 2012, 10:40 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Okay, the first published use of that approach to setup Card Warp was...


Jon, here is my post again from page two.

"All the discussion over the years and Richards insistence that Gene Maze came up with the Cardwarp Deck Idea before Darwin Ortiz is really a moot point. If we all agree that the first to publish gets the credit then both Ortiz and Maze are out of the running. In 1978 Jim Klayder published the first reference to it in "Ideas for the Card Warp" from the manuscript called "Watch Closely."

In it he pre-tears 26 cards and alternates torn with un-torn cards and places them back in the case which he has torn in half and is placed in his pocket for easy access to the pairs of cards.

Case closed...

BTW this information was first brought up by Curtis Kam years ago during the Cardwarp discussion on this website, but everyone ignored it.

Jeff Pierce"

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 20th, 2012, 10:46 am

We're not arguing Jeff. I simply suggested and continue to support writing a report of the published record in a manner that does not make additionnal or unwarrented presumptions that risk hurting the feelings of others.
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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » April 20th, 2012, 10:58 am

Jon no one is arguing about anything. There are no presumptions as everything has been stated on this forum from the parties involved. I've simply added another layer to this discussion.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Chris Aguilar » April 20th, 2012, 11:15 am

Tom Frame wrote:
If the participant later peels the hypercard off of the base and unfolds it, she is still left with a warped card, due to the gaff's design.

Thanks Tom. I always wondered about that when I initially saw the ads for your effect.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 20th, 2012, 11:16 am

Jim Klayder is a straight-up guy, and I'm sure he came up with the idea on his own, however Maze was doing it in before that. And the ideas are NOT the same. Have the pre-torn cards alternating with normal cards means you have to have a pair removed from the deck at one spot. That doesn't seem to me to be nearly as good as simply having two cards chosen from different points in the deck. The Gene Maze version also doesn't require that extra step in the setup of alternating all the cards.
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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 20th, 2012, 11:19 am

RK- if the report on the Klayder item (cards in half cardcase in pocket) is correct he kept the thing in his pocket as a way to take out a pair of cards for the Card Warp trick - no mention of showing the pack etc.

Would someone be up for contacting the guy and asking him nicely (providing they check the book question first to make sure that it's not already discussed there) ??

J
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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » April 20th, 2012, 11:36 am

Richard, Apples and oranges.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 20th, 2012, 11:52 am

Jeff Pierce Magic wrote:Apples and oranges.

Jeff


yes, it could well be. One has a pack displayed and selections named for the trick. Another seems to be taking two cards from ones pocket. Can we get a confirm by way of his book or asking directly it the book item is not as per the report (half box used as container in pocket so performer can get pairs of cards out for the trick )?

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » April 20th, 2012, 11:53 am

Jon I have his manuscript in front of me, it says published in 1978. No mistake about it. I have not tried to contact jim though I don't know what difference it would make. It is correct about the half box used to hold the cards.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 20th, 2012, 12:03 pm

I missed that the Klayder thing kept the deck in the pocket. Then the two ideas are not even remotely related! And Rene Clement will back me up about Gene doing this in the early to mid 1970s.
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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 20th, 2012, 12:12 pm

I'd be curious to hear if Jim Klayder has continued to work on the trick. A few internet searches has turned up he's a computer science professor who does magic on Mondays for his classes.

http://raider.mountunion.edu/~KLAYDEJR/
KLAYDEJR@mountunion.edu

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » April 20th, 2012, 12:23 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:I missed that the Klayder thing kept the deck in the pocket. Then the two ideas are not even remotely related! And Rene Clement will back me up about Gene doing this in the early to mid 1970s.


While not exactly the same, (just like the Maze and Ortiz ideas are not exactly the same)both the Klayder and the Maze and ortiz ideas use the box to deliver the two cards into play, just one is hidden the other two not. It's still the same basic concept in my eyes.

Richard, no one is disputing that perhaps Mr. Maze came up with his version in the early 70's but since it was never published we'll never know and Gene even gives Ortiz credit due.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby mrgoat » April 20th, 2012, 12:36 pm

Tom Frame wrote:Damian,

The base is cut from a thin but sturdy sheet of acetate. I stick a small, adhesive label that looks like a business card to the base. Adhesive is applied the the base in just the right spots.

I perform the card warp phase in which I remove the cover card to display that the card is really warped on both sides. Then I create the hypercard, stick it to the base and give it to the participant.



Lovely. Thanks again.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 20th, 2012, 12:37 pm

Tom, does your book include instructions on how to make or have made the bases you use for your advertising?
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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » April 20th, 2012, 12:54 pm

I have emailed Mr. Klayder for his comments.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 20th, 2012, 12:57 pm

Great - now I can focus on Dustin's claim that Aristotle did coin tricks. Pondering how he might have written about magic... :)
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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Tom Frame » April 20th, 2012, 1:30 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Tom, does your book include instructions on how to make or have made the bases you use for your advertising?


Jon,

The Hypercard Project comes complete with the gaffs, acetate sheet, labels and obsessively detailed instructions.

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 20th, 2012, 2:26 pm

Gene was not the least bit happy about Ortiz's publication of his idea for the card warp deck. I know this from personal experience. But Gene was not one to publicly make a fuss, so frankly I don't care what he may have written or said publicly on the issue.
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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Jeff Pierce Magic » April 20th, 2012, 2:43 pm

Richard, according to Ortiz did he not approve of Ortiz privately through email?

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Chris Aguilar » April 20th, 2012, 2:47 pm

For those who might not remember, here's the reference.

"Darwin Ortiz" wrote:I contacted Gene. He e-mailed me the following statement with permission to post it here:

Gene Maze wrote:

"The idea of performing Card Warp using the principle of the Forcing Deck was never, and I say never, discussed with Darwin Ortiz. There is no question in my mind that the use of a forcing deck was an independent thought on Darwin's part. It's my opinion that Darwin has too much character to take credit for something that's not his.

"As magicians have learned, many times one will develop an idea or sleight only to discover it had been thought of by another. The use of a Forcing Deck by Darwin and myself is a prime example.

"Be that as it may, though two or more magicians may have come up with the identical idea, the one that has it put into print first will be credited for it, and in a way, I feel that's justified. There may be exceptions to this but in this case I feel it's warranted in Darwin's case."

GENE MAZE

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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 20th, 2012, 3:14 pm

Gene's statement only says that he believes Darwin developed the idea independently. Nowhere does Gene state that he did not develop the idea years earlier.

Gene says that he never discussed the idea with Ortiz, but it was circulating freely among those who attended the Governor Cafeteria on a regular basis. Gene also does not state that he never performed the effect for Darwin, or for a group of people which may have contained Darwin.

Gene's writing must be read carefully, as all writing must, for the subtext as well as the overt meaning.

And how do I know Gene was pissed off? Because I was the idiot who forgot that Gene had shown this to me years earlier and then I stupidly published it in Darwin Ortiz at the Card Table. When the book came out, Gene asked me if I remembered that he had shown it to me years earlier. I was mortified beyond belief because Gene was one of my closest friends and I had completely forgotten about his Card Warp Deck. He wasn't made at me, but I won't repeat the words he used regarding Ortiz.
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Re: Ripped & Fryed - source?

Postby Chris Aguilar » April 20th, 2012, 3:44 pm

Perhaps Maze (who authorized Ortiz to publicly post his final word on the subject a full 14 years after "At The Card Table" was published) came to believe what he wrote in his note (i.e. as he wrote "There is no question in my mind that the use of a forcing deck was an independent thought on Darwin's part."

I know there have been plenty instances where I (at the time) had seemingly righteous anger concerning a situation, only to find out years later that perhaps my initial anger wasn't warranted. Perhaps something similar to that happened with Gene.

Richard's view of events (Maze angry at the time of the Ortiz book being published) doesn't seem to conflict with the notion that Gene might have come to different conclusion about the affair 14 years later (i.e. Gene Maze has no animus toward Ortiz and accepts that the idea was likely independently created.)

The concept of independent invention (admittedly sometimes abused in our little niche world) can and does happen legitimately (and without malice) at times.

In the past, the answer seems to have been to credit both creators when paternity of an idea was in question.

Why not do so now? Even though Maze clearly stated that Ortiz deserved the credit, we could always refer to it as the "Ortiz/Maze Card Warp Deck" couldn't we?


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