The Genii Forum

My Silly topic days are over. You have to understand that I live on the other side of the world to most of you and when all the new stuff comes through I am already into the JD.

So here's the start of the New me.

"It's a tense Moment in your favourite atmospheric magic shop. A cardman who is visiting from overseas has just asked you to do a card trick! What do you show him?

What are the best card tricks our members have experienced for other magicians.

I know we all have our "own stuff" That's our concern but what about the stuff out there in the literature. Is it better to fool or impress with technicality is these situations?

For me it would be Dingle's All Backs with selection. Perfect combination of deception and technique.....Quirky to boot......Floored people with this.

So, Without revealing too many of your sources what do you use to impress your peers.

DeanX

Oh come on Dean, keep the silly topics going. Had me chuckling to myself on numerous occasions.

Ian

PS I do hope "chuckling" isn't Australian slang for something rude.

Ian,
I hope you realise that "Chuckling" is Australian slang for "Your pass is crap"

Oh allright, I might squeeze a few more Silly forums out,

You, Brodie, have coaxed me out of semi retirement I hope your pleased with yourself!?

BTW Any version of Birds of a feather where you don't switch the cards(At least not at the conventional moment) floors magicians aswell....You can find examples of this in the work of Gene Maze.

DeanX

I've had fun with the 15 second memorized deck that was published in channel one by, I think, Tom Stone

Grant

I have always considered two levels of performers. I specialize in just cards. For me, there would be a difference in what I would show a magician, and what I might do for some other cardman. For a magician, it would be different handlings of standards they would be familiar with. An assembly, ambitious card, even blow-off version of the 21-card trick, etc. Magicians are usually fooled because they are 'way-ahead' of you as soon as they recognize the effect they think you are doing!

For a cardician, I would fish around and find out what it is they are into and proceed in that direction.

Jim Molinari

Hideo Kato's card happening.

I have literally never seen anyone else do this. It is one that if you do it, it is likely no one has seen it and they will figure you really have "chops."

Effect:

You say that you have developed an invisible palm.

Showing your left hand, palm up, to have nothing palmed... you say, "I have had surgery (I really have) and that the scar has a micro zipper and when I palm a card, it goes inside and I zip it up."

You demonstrate by miming zipping back and forth across your hand.

"Right now it is zipped shut." And I slap my hand down onto the table..

"I'll open it... watch." Mime opening zipper and slap hand down again.

When you lift your hand THERE IS A CARD THERE ON THE TABLE. :genii:

Secret tomorrow. :p

PS: It was published in Genii.

By the way... I did a variant on this and totally NAILED Johnny Thompson.

What I did was have him blow up a balloon, hold it on the table with his hand flat on top. I told him to push down on the balloon.

I took out a pin and popped the balloon and his hand slammed down onto the table top... and HIS CHOSEN CARD WAS UNDER HIS HAND. :genii:

Grant McSorley:

I believe the 15-second memorized deck is from the very clever Tom Frame, not the very clever Tom Stone.

Pete

Dean,

Funny you should mention Dingle for magician foolers. I always love to pull out his "New Double Color Changing Aces" from the Collected Works. If I know Im going to be hanging around other magicians (rare, but it happens), Ill grab the aces from some really odd-backed deck. Then, because it doesn't require any real set-up, I'll borrow somebody else's deck and go to town.

For magicians it really sets up a double sucker-punch. First they think youre doing some basic find-the-aces trick. Ho-hum. Then you pull the rug out from under them by showing the backs of their own cards have changed. Then, before they have had a chance to recover, you visibly change them back. Talk about kicking them when theyre down!

Zech Johnson

OOh Rock on! I'm going to have a look at that tonight...Thanks.

Pete.. I will await said secret with anticipation
Does it use real magic?????

DeanX

The Kato Card Happening IS REAL MAGIC... NO REEL USED THO...

OK, I can't wait (actually if I wait 'til tomorrow I may forget)!!

Kato, published this in Genii a looooooooong time ago... when Genii was "Always Late, Always Great?"

Anyway...

You have the deck at the edge of the table, not too close, and you allow (or move it) one card, the top one... to jog itself... about a half inch to the right. Charlie Miller touch... was to get "air" under the card and when you set the deck down the card often would slide over on its own... this is knack thing, you need to play with it. Otherwise just slide the card over when you set the cards down.

THE MAIN THING is that you have lost interest in the deck, take the heat off... Like saying something about "I can't find your card, sorry, do you like balloon tricks?"

(If doint the balloon version)

Otherwise figure out your own timing based on your own personna.

OK, now you do the first slap, nothing. :confused:

On the second slap you position your right hand behind the deck (no one is paying attention to that hand or the deck, right?) with the first finger "cocked" to the thumb... and (here is where you gotta PRACTICE) as you slap your left hand down, the fingertips hit first... AND AT THE SAME TIME YOUR RIGHT FINGERNAIL HITS THE SIDE JOGGED CARD... and SHOOTS it under your hand. :genii:

Try it you'll like it. :cool:

Very cool,Thanks for posting it.

Noah Levine

Pete, what sort of distance would you recommend between the deck and the left hand?

HT

Dean,
As you say I usually do my own stuff but of the published things I'll do to "show off" here's one of my favorites.
Click here to see a video clip.

Anyone recognize the move?

Happytrickster... How long are your arms??? :confused:

No... I just measured my setup and it is about 13-inches...

Of course there is the version (I think Sir Kaufman is going to publish this in the paper magazine) where I shoot a card across the table to a partner in a Poker demo... :cool:

Originally posted by Bill Duncan:


Anyone recognize the move?

Cover pass, one handed top palm, then dump the palmed card under the spread?

Alpen

Originally posted by Alpen:
one handed top palm, then dump the palmed card under the spread?

Almost. A top palm would leave the card reversed in the pack and require tension as the pack was dropped. This move works with gravity...

It's a Marlo color change from Card Finesse.

Oh, OK, into Lateral Palm, right?

Alpen

Hey gang,
I have 3 routines I always do for magicians, and laymen. Probably the 3 strongest routines in my repitoire. Mike Skinner's Oil and Water rides again. I have a script for this that immediately sets me apart from other magicians, and with the kicker ending, it is a superb routine. Second is Nash's Vernash Aces. As the spectator remember it, they put the aces anywhere in the deck. I make 3 shuffles and the aces are brought to the top. And finally, my own routine I call the Dr.'s Autograph. It is a combination of Dr. Daley's last trick and Bro. Hamman's Your signed card.
Pepka

Originally posted by Alpen:
Oh, OK, into Lateral Palm, right?

Alpen

No palm. Outer right corner (or left in my case) clipped between the roots of the second and third fingers...

Then fed back into the middle of the pack instead of the "bottom" as per Marlo (Card Finesse p. 17).

Card Finesse is a great book that few seem to have actually read.

You can find more that one magician fooler in it and the best part is the stuff is good for actuall human audiences too!

Bill,

You can achieve the exact same effect by simply side jogging the top card of the deck. As you throw the cards to the waiting hands, it reverses in mid air.

HEAPS easier!!!

I've been using this since I was about 10 years old. I think I learnt it from Jon Tremaine's Amazing Book of Card Tricks :D

Always good to have a couple of methods for the same effect.

I occasionally use the same air-pressure reverse Sean Piper mentions, while dropping the deck onto the table. The ambitious card not only appears on the deck face up, it bounces up off the pack. It really looks like the card rose through the deck when it hit the table (i.e. when it was out of my hand).

Bill Duncan:

John Lovick and I were fooling around with the Marlo move (which is also in Daryl's Ambitious Card Omnibus). But your touch on the recovery is very nice. That was always the part I had trouble with. Thanks.

Pete

Sean,
Would that I could. I've never been able to hit the air pressure turnover 100% of the time...

I felt much better about that when watching one of "the big boys" miss it on his DVD and again on the teaching segment...

Marlo's method is 100% sure fire and there's no movement of the produced card. Plus, in the context I use it, it would be unnecessarily difficult to show the card face up in the center, secretly reverse it, control it to the top and side jog it only to miss the air pressure turnover. The pass/color change is easier and more direct and never fails to get the desired response from magicians or laymen.

Pete,
Thanks for the kind words.

Sean.
What happens if you do the air peassure move underwater during a comp...Does it take longer to turn over?

Bill,
Once again with these things I was unable to download your video clip.....My Pc is so full of crap.........Did it use real magic?

DeanX

To Pete Biro.

Pete it is a pleasure to read your posts and thankyou on behalf of all of the contributers to this thread for the recent explanation of a deceptive magician fooler....You didn't have to give that one away......Thousands wouldn't.

I have been guilty of the odd ridiculous post in my time but this is not to say that I don't respect the forum and the pressence of such mines of history and usefull knowledge such as yourself and others.

Yours with respect
DeanX

Pete,
I just want to add my thanks for Kato's card. It is one of those moves that has me sort of wondering as I read it, and then unboxing the deck. I set the deck on the edge of my desk as I read your description again, and as you suggested 'got some air' under the card. The first time I tried it, I could not believe the balistic speed of that top card shooting as it pranged off the base of my monitor. I didn't expect that kind of speed, so it went right underneath my too-slowly descending left hand. The next time though, I have to tell you it is *so* quick that I was surprised to find the card under my left hand. I cannot wait to see the looks on the faces of a couple of magician friends. It really is a fooler Pete, and I thank you. I noted that you were one of the good folk of magic that helped with the teens in January, and I appreciate that, too. I have three sons, and the 13 and the 8 year olds are both magic buffs. I hope they get to spend some time with you one day. Heck I hope *I* get to meet you one day. Thanks Pete!

Mark Jensen - the other one, hmm, should I use Mark Jensen, N.Ca?

Originally posted by Bill Duncan:
Sean,
Would that I could. I've never been able to hit the air pressure turnover 100% of the time...

True... it can be unreliable, but like many moves in magic it's a knacky thing that takes time. I would say that after playing with it now for about ten years, I can hit it probably 95% of the time.

I heard of someone a few years ago that slipped a double backer onto a borrowed deck while explaining the move to a 'name' magician. You can imagine the frustration :D

I never knew I was supposed to attach any particular importance to "fooling Magicians". ;)

Just for magicians... nowadays, I will do Mutobe's coin through hand or Mutobe's coin Vanish.
It kill layman :eek: and impress magician :confused:
or Dr. Sawa's Fax Machine for card guy :p
It's very quick and straight forward magic.

Wert.

Well I soppose you don't Really have to at all, if you feel that way about it. But since It's a thread I started I will defend it by saying that alot of people are interested in what it takes to fool their magic friends if only for their own self esteem and progression within the art. If you can fool, or impress or even entertain another conjuror with your stuff then you can probably floor anyone and that's what it's all about...As I'm certainly sure you realise. Personally I try to make all of my routines deceptive and entertaining to both magicians and laypeople alike. then I can work a single active repotoire.

It may not be important to you to fool other magic friends once in a while and to discuss these ideas on the forum(And that's fine) but it is to the other contributers to the thread.

Warmly
DeanXX

Originally posted by Dean Atkinson:
[QB]Wert.
... I will defend it by saying that alot of people are interested in what it takes to fool their magic friends if only for their own self esteem and progression within the art.

My self esteem doesn't need that kind of build up. It's not why I do magic. :)

If you can fool, or impress or even entertain another conjuror with your stuff then you can probably floor anyone and that's what it's all about...

Nah, it seems that many "magicians effects" just don't play well to layman. Some do, mind you, but I'm not going to give up on an effect (or disdain it in any way)just because it won't fool my fellow magi.

It may not be important to you to fool other magic friends once in a while and to discuss these ideas on the forum

I'm curious now.

Why is it truly that important to impress other magicians?

One can have valid and constructive discussions about magic without the need to show someone up with a "magician fooling" routine.

Is it symptomatic of wanting to impress the guys down at the local magic club or store?

...but it is to the other contributers to the thread.

I wonder just how important this really is to those who work primarily for layman?

I don't know about everyone else, but I didn't get into magic for the joy of impressing other Magi. :)

Originally posted by wert:
I never knew I was supposed to attach any particular importance to "fooling Magicians". ;)

If you happen to live near an energetic magical population center, you have the best chance of becoming acquainted with this particular delight. Seeking the appreciation of ones peers is common to most creative or artistic endeavors and magicians are no different. Their appreciation obviously takes the form of being fooled (and entertained). Its a form of objective recognition of your merit as an artist and a craftsman (as distinct from an "entertainer" which you can get from any lay audience). In a field like magic, with no formal means of recognition or qualification, this is often the only such recognition available. Other than that, its a hoot (better than drugs).

Originally posted by Michael Kamen:

Originally posted by wert:
In a field like magic, with no formal means of recognition or qualification, this is often the only such recognition available. Other than that, its a hoot (better than drugs).

Well.

Fine and good.

It's kind of sad to me that some magi need the validation of "fooling their peers".

Is the need for recognition really that abject for some?

Whilst it might be "fun", I wonder if the effort being put in to "fool magicians" might be better spent on presentational issues.

Just because a presentation wows your peers doesn't mean it will play equally well with the public.

You don't always have to fool them. Just do something that requires more than 2 hours of practice and you'll have the attention of most magicians.

It also helps if you flash during the third or fourth phase so they could appreciate what you're doing.

If you want to fool magicians, stay away from sleight of hand.

HR

Karl Fulves once joked about keeping a wallet with some odd cards and pretending it was a packet trick he lost the instructions to.

You can imagine the HOURS of fun to be had with that item. All those helpful magicians...

That's one way to fool a magician. ;)

Best way to fool a magician?

Write a dealers ad. :)

Here's a magician fooler/gag: Turn the top half of the deck face up. Then turn the top two cards face down. Ask someone to critique your double turnover. Slowly turn over the top card. They will see the face down second card when you do this. Ask them how many cards you turned over. Then spread the deck, keeping the face down card hidden, to reveal half the deck face up.

Personally, I think "magician foolers" are more for the benefit of the viewing magician. Without wanting to sound like I'm bragging, it is very rare for me to see an effect where I have absolutely no clue as to what went on. I'm talking sleight of hand magic here. I'm sure that it is like this for most who have been doing magic for awhile. You can almost always see a tell of some sort (the control, force, palm, get ready, etc.) I LOVE having that feeling of being totally fooled by an effect and I'm glad that magicians come up with these effects.

Frank Yuen

Some people are interested in tricks that will fool other magicians because they regularly do tricks for their fellow magicians. What more justification is required?

However I'm not sure about one of the other purported benefits, that if you can fool a magician you can fool anyone. In my experience a lot of fooling people is based on taking advantage of their assumptions. Magicians tend to have very different assumptions than laypeople. Consequently some tricks that fool magicians are quite obvious to normal people. I'm pretty sure Darwin Ortiz discussed this very point in Strong Magic.

Frank, those tells you mentioned are in fact, often the basis for the construction of "magician foolers". You incorporate some false tells, in order to lead them astray. Vernon did a lot of this sort of thing.

Originally posted by wert:
Is the need for recognition really that abject for some? . . .[/QB]

". . .that abject?" just how "abject" do you mean?

Every professional on the planet has a means of gaining peer recognition. Enjoyment of ones art in the company of one's peers is hardly abject.

With that I bid this conversation farewell.