Erdnase Four-Card Stock

[JHostler]

Greetings -

I've posted this inquiry elsewhere, but still haven't solved the riddle of Erdnase's Four-Card Stock description. If anyone has successfully executed the shuffle sequence and cares to share, I'd greatly appreciate a proper blow-by-blow description of the running & jogging. As written, it simply doesn't work - at least not for three hands.

Thanks in advance,

John

[AMCabral]

Before everyone on the planet chimes in with "read the description" and "practice", do this:
Take four kings, place three face up on top of the deck, one face up on the bottom. Run through the description as written (and yes, it does work as written) and see how the cards end up. It'll be easier to figure out what you're doing wrong that way.

-T

[JHostler]

Given that this has absolutely nothing to do with practice or reading, I don't suspect that any thinking person would respond that way - and I'd just ignore the rest.

In any case, it does NOT work as described (utilizing the two-card text as a model)... and the complexity of the four-card sequence prevents remotely easy diagnosis via the reversed card (or odd back) trial.

I suspect Erdnase intended the reader to deviate from norms established in the two-card stock (e.g., undercutting above, rather than beneath jogged cards or jogging the first card shuffled rather than the existing top card), but simply omitted a key detail.

Absolutely maddening.

[Richard Kaufman]

Is this not listed as one of the mistakes that Vernon found in Erdnase?

[JHostler]

Vernon discovered that the two-card stock could be used to position three cards, but I've never seen mention of a mistake in the four-card stock.

Again, I'm only working on this for three hands... perhaps there's an unstated limit.

[Ken Becker]

John,
I've tried it with a two-card stock for three hands, and then a four-card stock for three hands. It works for me. Need to be careful whether in-jog of top card of deck or a running in-jog
from the shuffle.
My EACT is 1944 edition from Charles T. Powner Co./Chicago.
Maybe a misprint in yours?
Cheers,
Ken B.

[David Ben]

John:

AMCabral gave you excellent advice. The description for stocking four cards - and in three hands - works exactly as described. You are not reading it correctly. Period.

If I had to bet on where you were misreading it, I would say it is at right near the beginning where it says "Under-cut about one-third deck, injog the top card." My guess is that you are injogging the top card of the undercut portion when, in fact, your left thumb should be injogging the top card of the portion that remains in the left hand, while your right hand holds the one-third portion of the pack it has just undercut. I bet you assume Erdnase is asking you to injog the top card of the undercut portion when in fact he is referring to the top card of the original top portion of the pack.

Again, it works perfectly as described.

[JHostler]

David - With all due respect, I think a distinction needs to be drawn between "reading well" and "writing well." Erdnase's prose is less than crystal throughout the stock section. That said, I've finally nailed it. For anyone else running into problems (pun intended), here's the breakdown for three hands:

1. Under-cut about one-third deck [simple enough]
2. In-jog top card [OK - top card of destination packet, as described for two-card stock]
3. Run two less than twice number players (4) [OK]
4. Out-jog [SWE fails to specify which card is jogged - the top card of the destination packet or a new card from the source packet. It's the latter.]
5. Shuffle off to last card, so that it will be left on top [OK]
6. Under-cut to out-jog, forming break at in-jog [OK]
7. Run one less than number players (2) [OK]
8. Throw to break [OK]
9. Run one [OK]
10. In-jog running one less than twice number players (5) [SWE again fails to specify which card is jogged - the top card of the destination packet, a separate card from the source packet, or the first card of the 5-card run. It's the latter.]
11. Out-jog [SWE again fails to specify which card is jogged - the top card of the destination packet or a new card from the source packet. It's the latter.]
12. Shuffle off [OK]
13. Under-cut to in-jog and throw on top [OK]
14. Under-cut to out-jog [OK]
15. Run one less than number players (2) [OK]
16. Throw balance on top [OK]

The core problem with the description, then, is that SWE leads the reader down one path for the first jogged card and then shifts gears (sorry!) with no notice.

[JHostler]

Mea culpa (sort of) - skipping SWE's description of the three-card stock wasn't a good idea. This section (which I hadn't read in years) contains a key detail that is not repeated in the four-card text.

[Alpen]

John,

The Three Card Stock and Two Card Stock descriptions have all the necessary information to answer your original question, Erdnase does not "shift gears" with respect to the naming convention of jogs.

The Three Card Stock write-up provides the answer as to which card is in-jogged when you're running one less than twice the number of players, and the Two Card Stock write-up provides the answer as to which card is out-jogged.
I only write this because of another great point in that same section:

"The reader who has mastered the blind shuffles should find it a very simple matter to perform this stock. His knowledge of the terms must be clear, and he must have the slight skill necessary to make the run, jog, break, and throw, as required in the blind shuffles."

Alpen

[JHostler]

See my last post!

[Alpen]

Ah, I had the page open for a while and didn't refresh. Glad to see you noticed your error and can now do the shuffle!

Alpen

[AMCabral]

Well, I'm glad we got that cleared up. Apology accepted (sort of).

Another tip I can give besides practicing it with the stock cards face up is, for demonstrations, to actually perform it with the stock cards face up. Combine that with the Jack Merlin idea of reciting the formula as you perform the shuffle at a brisk pace and you've got an entertaining piece of business, my friend.

Richard: give Jason England a ping. Last he found, there were 8 errors in Erdnase, five more than Vernon knew. Unfortunately, the run-up formula isn't one of them.

-T

[JHostler]

After toying with the correct shuffle for about five minutes, other applications came to mind as well. For example, the four or five cards below the top stock can be made to fall to easily accessible positions in each of four hands... allowing for a royal flush kicker when dealing yourself four aces.

Fun stuff.

[AMCabral]

After toying with the correct shuffle for about five minutes, other applications came to mind as well. For example, the four or five cards below the top stock can be made to fall to easily accessible positions in each of four hands... allowing for a royal flush kicker when dealing yourself four aces.

Fun stuff.

There's a Bruce Elliott routine that uses that idea to deal unknown selections as hole cards in a game of stud poker. I use it to accomplish a triple duke myself. Now SHUSH before someone hears you.

-T

[Sebastien L.]

Mea culpa (sort of) - skipping SWE's description of the three-card stock wasn't a good idea. This section (which I hadn't read in years) contains a key detail that is not repeated in the four-card text.

I did not read the three card stock and simply proceeded with the four card stock. It plays just as written for me. Perhaps the detail that first escaped you is not something I get hung up on because of my familiarity with Erdnase's descriptions.

Perhaps you refer to this (actually under the two card stock):

Run two less than twice the number of players, which
would be eight; out-jog, that is, run the next card out
over the left first finger by shifting the right hand slightly
outward, and shuffle off, which means to shuffle the
balance of the right hand packet into the left hand without
design.

In Erdnase, whenever he just says "out-jog and ...", he means to outjog the next single card coming off the right hand packet. In these cases out-jogging means to draw a card off the right packet and jog it. If he means otherwise, he will say "in-jog the first card" to be specific about jogging the first card of the left-hand packet.

It can be confusing at first but experimentation should steer you to the right path easily enough. After all, whether by "out jog and shuffle off" he means to outjog the first card of the left hand packet, or the first card drawn from the right, these are only two possibilities and testing them both shouldn't take much time at all.