Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby mrgoat » May 18th, 2009, 2:41 pm

Glenn Bishop wrote: Houdini not being able to do magic is not only untrue - he performed in a theater doing a show of magic - escapes - and spiret fraud.


Surely, Glenn, performing in a theatre is a measure of nothing other than marketing?

That proves he was good at marketing, not magic.

I believe Houdini's poor ability as a magician is well documented by others.

Are you saying Vernon was wrong and Houdini was a great magician?

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 18th, 2009, 2:57 pm

Given Houdini's publication of an honorific to Robert-Houdin ... there are other words that come to mind besides "magician" unless that's what you want the word to mean.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby David Alexander » May 18th, 2009, 7:09 pm

Houdini was one of the major theatrical attractions of his day, the highest paid vaudeville performer (along with Evan Tanguray) at $3,500 a week. People wanted to see him and paid money for the opportunity. By the way, depending on how you compare it, the salary works out to $35,000 and up per week in current buying power. Not bad for a guy who was not a "great magician."

He was a star for a long time and his name continues to resonate. See: http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=Houdini for former and projected film and video projects around the name "Houdini."

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby mrgoat » May 18th, 2009, 7:24 pm

David Alexander wrote:Houdini was one of the major theatrical attractions of his day, the highest paid vaudeville performer (along with Evan Tanguray) at $3,500 a week. People wanted to see him and paid money for the opportunity. By the way, depending on how you compare it, the salary works out to $35,000 and up per week in current buying power. Not bad for a guy who was not a "great magician."




What's Angel getting a week?

As I said, getting a theatrical contract means you're good at marketing. As true today as it was then.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Pete McCabe » May 18th, 2009, 7:56 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
sympathetic euthanasia


okay - we've coined another term. Like quantumm entanglement but fatal.

Might even be a workable effect premise where you have two bugs, one in a matchbox and one in a terrarium - and when a volunteer steps on the matchbox the other bug falls off the branch.


You might be thinking of "Shadows."

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 18th, 2009, 8:46 pm

"shadows" as in Teller's piece with a rose in a vase and screen where the shadow of the knife acts on the real flower?

I like his take on Germaine's trick. That would be the one with a lock held by a volunteer and the shadow of the key seems to unlock the lock.

Not the same as killing two bugs with one stomp - but kind of sympathetic though on some level a thing and its shadow are expected to be related. ;)

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby David Alexander » May 18th, 2009, 9:36 pm

mrgoat wrote:
David Alexander wrote:Houdini was one of the major theatrical attractions of his day, the highest paid vaudeville performer (along with Evan Tanguray) at $3,500 a week. People wanted to see him and paid money for the opportunity. By the way, depending on how you compare it, the salary works out to $35,000 and up per week in current buying power. Not bad for a guy who was not a "great magician."




What's Angel getting a week?

As I said, getting a theatrical contract means you're good at marketing. As true today as it was then.


Damian,

Houdini held his own as a major theatrical attraction for longer than Angel has been an adult. That goes beyond mere marketing. Marketing gets them in the door once. The performer must then deliver on the promise that marketing makes. Houdini did...Angel doesn't.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 19th, 2009, 9:00 am

mrgoat wrote:
Glenn Bishop wrote: Houdini not being able to do magic is not only untrue - he performed in a theater doing a show of magic - escapes - and spiret fraud.


Surely, Glenn, performing in a theatre is a measure of nothing other than marketing?

That proves he was good at marketing, not magic.

I believe Houdini's poor ability as a magician is well documented by others.

Are you saying Vernon was wrong and Houdini was a great magician?


In my opinion performing in a theater or getting paid to do magic over years is the acid test of a magician. And Houdini was a good magician - Jack Gwynne knew him for some time and built a take apart chicken vanish that later his brother Hardeen used in his show.

Hardeen was also a good magician and very successful. He did a lot of magic in his show including a Dolls House.

No I am not saying Houdini was a better magician than Vernon what I am saying is that Houdini was commercial. And as I said before in another thread that Jack Gwynne told me that Houdini was very good with a deck of cards - in that day.

Vernon had his opinion about Houdini and seemed to like to tell his story about it. Jack Gwynne had his opinion and story. Gwynne was a vaudeville and night club performer - and made his living doing a flash act of illusions.

Vernon didn't.

If you are asking me do I think that Houdini was a great magician I would say yes.

If you were to ask me if Vernon was better than Houdini I would say that Houdini was a commercial magician that did what he had to do to earn a living doing magic in show business and he was not only a successful magician over years - he was a showman and also he was a trouper. And was one of the most known magicians in magic's history.

Jack Gwynne who was also a great magician told me Houdini was a great magician and I have no reason to not believe his opinion even when another great magician may say different.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby mrgoat » May 19th, 2009, 1:31 pm

Glenn Bishop wrote:In my opinion performing in a theater or getting paid to do magic over years is the acid test of a magician.


I disagree. Anyone being paid to do any kind of performance regularly is no measure of their artistic ability. Look at the trash that is on Broadway or in London's West End. There are 'proper' plays, and amazing actors that don't get work. Instead we get a C list celeb in a theatre version of Sister Act!?!

It will put (as we say here) bums on seats. (I mean buttocks, not tramps).

Someone unknown doing Berkoff's hour long one man play Harry's Christmas would not.

So, I think that selling tickets to people is a measure of marketing, not skill.
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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Max Maven » May 19th, 2009, 5:59 pm

David Alexander wrote:Houdini was one of the major theatrical attractions of his day, the highest paid vaudeville performer (along with Evan Tanguray)....



Eva Tanguay.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby David Alexander » May 19th, 2009, 6:25 pm

Of course. I didn't check my post over for spelling as I usually do. Eva, essentially unknown today, was a huge draw for her time. She was real show biz.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby David Alexander » May 19th, 2009, 6:32 pm

mrgoat wrote:
Glenn Bishop wrote:In my opinion performing in a theater or getting paid to do magic over years is the acid test of a magician.


I disagree. Anyone being paid to do any kind of performance regularly is no measure of their artistic ability. Look at the trash that is on Broadway or in London's West End. There are 'proper' plays, and amazing actors that don't get work. Instead we get a C list celeb in a theatre version of Sister Act!?!

It will put (as we say here) bums on seats. (I mean buttocks, not tramps).

Someone unknown doing Berkoff's hour long one man play Harry's Christmas would not.

So, I think that selling tickets to people is a measure of marketing, not skill.


Artistic ability does not necessarily attract the public no matter how well it may be marketed. There are plenty of magicians who are considered "artistic" who couldn't entertain their way out of a paper bag. We're talking about show BUSINESS which means being someone who people are interested in paying to see and tell their friends about.

That, and when did Vernon become the final word on all things magic? Jack Gwynne seems to have had a different opinion of Houdini and the fact that Gwynne was a successful vaudeville and night club performer for decades gives weight to his opinion.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby NCMarsh » May 20th, 2009, 7:47 am

My sense of it was that Houdini was a phenomenal success presenting an escape act, but that the straight magic portion of the show was consistently panned by critics, colleagues and, I think, audiences...I don't have specific sources I can cite, but my memory of reading Houdini bios as a kid was that there were several attempts by him to do a straight magic act -- both before and after he became a star -- and they never gained traction with the public (I am, of course, open to correction on this point)

I don't think it is fair to Vernon to read his low opinion of Houdini qua magician as a low opinion of Houdini as a performer generally

I also think this ties into an earlier thread about mentalism...not every specialty is for every performer...had Houdini stayed the King of Kards, I don't know how many of us would remember his work

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby mrgoat » May 20th, 2009, 9:00 am

David Alexander wrote:[

Artistic ability does not necessarily attract the public no matter how well it may be marketed. There are plenty of magicians who are considered "artistic" who couldn't entertain their way out of a paper bag. We're talking about show BUSINESS which means being someone who people are interested in paying to see and tell their friends about.


Fair point well made.

Really, what I meant was that the 'talented' can often not be commercial successes. Possibly the word artistic is too emotive. Amazingly entertaining and talented artists in ANY field (mime, acting, singing, magic, juggling, whatever) often make no money and have no recognition. Because they are untalented? No. Because they weren't marketed.

Where as, with the right marketing budget, trash like High School Musical and Sister Act will continue to get people to pay to see it.

I really don't know much about Houdini, and certainly don't believe that JUST cos Vernon said he was bad, he was. I understand he was an AMAZING marketeer and self-publicist, a good escapologist and an adequate magician.

However, I do think that the solely untalented can sell tickets if they are marketed properly.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Roger M. » May 20th, 2009, 2:09 pm

mrgoat wrote:
However, I do think that the solely untalented can sell tickets if they are marketed properly.

If in doubt see:

Britney Spears
Jessica Simpson
Ashlee Simpson
Madonna
The Olsen Twins
Lindsey Lohan
Paris Hilton
.........and a few hundred more to remain unlisted.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Dustin Stinett » May 20th, 2009, 2:32 pm

While you may not like their type/style of music, to say that Madonna and Britney Spears are untalented is nonsense.

And one could certainly make an argument for a certain type of talent for Paris Hilton. :)

As for the others, I have no firsthand knowledge of their abilities.

Dustin

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Eric Fry » May 20th, 2009, 2:39 pm

This is a long way from a riffle shuffle, but I don't mind meandering conversations.

Here's the thing about Houdini. I don't think the hard-headed, hard-hearted people who ran vaudeville circuits would have paid him a headliner's salary for 20-plus years if they didn't feel he was worth the money, by which they meant putting the proverbial butts in the seats.

But that still leaves open the fair question: is it excellence that attracts audiences? And in Houdini's case, if he wasn't excellent at performing, did he attract audiences through excellence at publicity? And even if you're good only at publicity, how long can that carry a medocre performer?

I think the record (newspaper reviews and comments by well-regarded magicians at the time) shows that Houdini excelled at presenting an escape act and, later in his career, the spiritualism exposures.

But here's another important point: most of his publicity consisted of PERFORMING. We're not talking about posters and such. We're talking about jail breaks, underwater escapes, the straitjacket escape, and so on, performed not on stage but in the real world.

Part of Houdini's genius was that he seemed to do amazing things with real objects in real life, sometimes under test conditions that weren't possible on stage (searches of his body by doctors).

So even his excellence at publicity was a type of excellence at performing.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Steve Bryant » May 20th, 2009, 2:46 pm

I had never seen Jessica Simpson until she sang a Christmas carol on the 2008 Disney Christmas parade tv show. She blew me away, and I've kept it on my dvr ever since.

You didn't like Madonna in Desperately Seeking Susan, in Evita?

Or Lindsey Lohan in The Parent Trap (as a child), or A Prairie Home Companion (as an adult)?

Untalented?????

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby El Mystico » May 20th, 2009, 3:30 pm

I just took at look at what Magipedia has to say about Houdini; the implication seems to be that he started with card tricks; but it was only when he moved to escapology that his real fame came. Is this true?
This would make sense of Vernon's criticism - because Vernon was of the opinion that escaping from a straitjacket was not magic. And I see the force of that argument. Although wasn't it Conan Doyle who thought Houdini's escapes were so impossible he assumed Houdini dematerialised?

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Pete McCabe » May 20th, 2009, 3:33 pm

It's a lot of fun to say that someone who is much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much more successful than you are is untalented and that their success is the result of luck or marketing or anything else. It's certainly much more fun than admitting that someone else's success is the result of them working much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much harder than you do.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Eric Fry » May 20th, 2009, 4:10 pm

Houdini was an intelligent, self-educated, creative, very hard-working person blessed with charisma and a striking appearance.

He didn't reach the top quickly. He worked in beer halls, dime museums, a traveling medicine show, a circus, a burlesque show, as a phony medium, an acrobat, a Punch & Judy worker, a melodrama actor. Is it possible he learned something about showmanship from his years in the entertainment wilderness?

In his own way he was a genuine artist, even if he didn't have any conscious self-awareness. Some artists don't. He did what artists do: He expressed himself. He created a meaningful act.

Houdini was also a hot-tempered, competitive, egomaniacal braggart who sucked up all the oxygen in the room. He was the sort of person who hires ghost writers and fancies himself a great writer. He was the sort of person who buys books and fancies himself a scholar.

We don't have to admire his personality to give him his due as a performer. If we had been an impovershed immigrant child laborer with no education, maybe we'd be combative and defensive as adults.

It's a shame that other great mystery performers from the past aren't well-known to the general public, but that's not Houdini's fault.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Roger M. » May 20th, 2009, 6:12 pm

Dustin Stinett wrote:While you may not like their type/style of music, to say that Madonna and Britney Spears are untalented is nonsense.


Two singers who can't sing their way out of a paper bag, but have had great success marketing themselves out of that very same paper bag.

Stick to reviewing magic.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Roger M. » May 20th, 2009, 6:13 pm

Steve Bryant wrote:
Untalented??????

Yes they are, thanks for double checking!

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Dustin Stinett » May 20th, 2009, 6:23 pm

Hey Glenn - See what I mean?

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby NCMarsh » May 20th, 2009, 7:35 pm

Pete McCabe wrote:It's a lot of fun to say that someone who is much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much more successful than you are is untalented and that their success is the result of luck or marketing or anything else. It's certainly much more fun than admitting that someone else's success is the result of them working much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much harder than you do.


This deserved to be repeated. Well said, Pete.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 20th, 2009, 9:12 pm

Success is based on a number of factors, talent being merely one component (and sometimes the least important).

Just because some talentless person works really really really really hard doesn't mean his or her spit is worth our attention.

(I can put "really really really really" in there a few more times if it makes Pete feel better.)

It would be hard to deny that Brittany Spears and Madonna have some degree of talent, though you may ask "a talent for what?" Perhaps it's simply the talent of being able to sell product, or sell themselves. But from their point of view, having made many millions of bucks and having millions of adoring fans (and in Madonna's case having an extremely long career) they are tremendously successful. If you're going to compare their success to other pop stars, good luck.

Everything is relative.

More people on the planet probably know who Madonna is than Leonardo DaVinci.

Everything is relative.
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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Roger M. » May 20th, 2009, 9:45 pm

I certainly don't begrudge people their soaring fame, but I'll never declare a talentless croaker "talented" if they are in fact nothing of the sort.

Spears is a sub-par dancer, and can't sing a note......but she's certainly famous and very, very wealthy.

Based on the historical record, our friend Houdini had very much more going for him in terms of talent than any of those in my original list above.

Folks seem to want to determine Houdini's talent through the craft of magic, when in fact as an escape artist he appears to be untouched "talent-wise" to this day, and questioning that talent seems somewhat pointless in light of the facts.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Steve Bryant » May 20th, 2009, 9:57 pm

As to this tiny, surprising side issue of the talents of Madonna and Lindsay Lohan, I would suggest that the following quotes by Roger Ebert (whose opinions I revere) and Cynthia Fuchs (a random google quote, but I agree with her) do not suggest that these ladies are untalented, nor that they gave excellent performances because some sort of uncanny "marketing":

Ebert:
Madonna, who took voice lessons to extend her range, easily masters the musical material. As importantly, she is convincing as Evita--from the painful early scene where, as an unacknowledged child, she tries to force entry into her father's funeral, to later scenes where the poor rural girl converts herself into a nightclub singer, radio star, desirable mistress, and political leader.


"Desperately Seeking Susan" does not move with the self-confidence that its complicated plot requires. But it has its moments, and many of them involve the different kinds of special appeal that Arquette and Madonna are able to generate. They are very particular individuals, and in a dizzying plot they somehow succeed in creating specific, interesting characters.

The key task is to make the double photography of the "twins'' work. All kinds of tricks are used, and of course the techniques are more advanced than they were in 1961, but since you can't see them anyway, you forget about them. Lindsay Lohan has command of flawless British and American accents, and also uses slightly flawed ones for when the girls are playing each other. What she has all the time is the same kind of sunny charm Hayley Mills projected, and a sense of mischief that makes us halfway believe in the twins' scheme.

Fuchs:
You might call A Prairie Home Companion an unlikely Lindsay Lohan movie. You could also call it the best work shes done, the best work shes likely to do, or the best chance shes had to do good work. Heres Lindsaynotorious bad driver, paparazzi victim, and late-night partiertransformed into another possibility, on a screen with Meryl Streep playing her mom.
Thats not to say that Lohans previous work is unworthy: Mean Girls is generally fabulous and, in Freaky Friday, she matches Jamie Lee Curtis step for comedic step. And yes, shes altogether perfect in The Parent Trap, especially if youre nine years old. But still, in A Prairie Home Companion, Lohan is unexpectedly nuanced, canny, and endearing.
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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Roger M. » May 20th, 2009, 10:06 pm

I'm not sure Madonna's acting would have even happened if she hadn't been a well known, but talentless singer first.

There are literally thousands of actors out there whose names we don't know that are a great deal better at the craft than Madonna is or ever was.

Lindsay Lohan was a child actor who was rated as a child actor. Now that she's all growed up and doesn't get the "child actor" break, she can't get a gig for trying.

Anyway, back to Houdini and the Riffle Shuffle.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 20th, 2009, 10:13 pm

Did Houdini do a riffle shuffle?
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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Roger M. » May 20th, 2009, 10:31 pm

You can't be the King of Kards and not do a riffle shuffle :)
..........or maybe you can.

We need some learned Houdini folks here to clear this mystery up.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Steve Bryant » May 20th, 2009, 11:53 pm

I'm starting to think that Mark Lewis is sneaking in and making preposterous statements, then slipping away unnoticed. This has been a scary thread.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 21st, 2009, 10:43 am

Eric Fry wrote:He was the sort of person who buys books and fancies himself a scholar.

Eric thanks for posting - If I may add Houdini I think had very little formal school education. A lot of kids in show business in those days had little formal school education because their parents were on the road so much in those days. Some of the show business kids got home schooled.

I think he was smart enough to have ghost writers because I think that he fell short in his own writing ability.

I think Jack Gwynne's kids had a teacher that traveled with them when they were on the road and the kids were small and at one time the teacher became the second assistant in the Gwynne act for a season or two.

I don't think that Dante or Blackstone had that much formal school education in those days. I think that they worked as kids and learned theater by going there and doing it.

I don't know if Houdini did any riffle shuffle work. I think that he had an interest in the card sharp moves from the info I read in the Scarne book - The Odds Against me.

By the way Dustin I agree with you and I think Modonna is very talented. And I see what you mean.

Here is a cutting the aces on the fly from a shuffled deck. As I like to work the deck and the aces are not tricked up in any way and no crips - short cards - marked cards. And the deck can be shuffled before each ace cut by an audience member.

http://www.mrhypnotist.org/video/glennb ... cestwo.wmv

Enjoy...

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby mrgoat » May 21st, 2009, 11:03 am

I always thought the half that you pushed through the deck was meant to be hidden from the audience? So they couldn't see what you were doing?

Am I misremembering, I don't have the book in front of me to check.

Seems odd to actually expose the whole point of the triumph move - ie that you are squaring the cards?

But as I said, maybe I missed the point of the shuffle in that trick?

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 21st, 2009, 11:13 am

I think I already answered those questions many posts ago.


Just my opinion.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby mrgoat » May 21st, 2009, 11:28 am

Glenn Bishop wrote:I think I already answered those questions many posts ago.


Just my opinion.


Sorry, I thought we were going round in circles so I'd just join in.

:)

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 21st, 2009, 5:30 pm

New video about the old stuff - I like the eye in the sky way of doing the video - it really shows the real work.

http://www.mrhypnotist.org/video/glennb ... dshark.wmv

This video is a long one.

Enjoy.

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mrgoat
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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby mrgoat » May 26th, 2009, 2:43 pm

"WITH DAI VERNON'S TRIUMPH SHUFFLE

The incredibly clever shuffle described by Vernon in his trick "Triumph" can be also used for bringing any card to the top of the deck. Let's say the deck is in mnemonic order and that you need to bring the 8 of diamonds (29) to the top without disturbing the rest of the stack. Cut exactly above the 8 diamonds and draw the lower packet to the right in preparation for a riffle shuffle. If you now riffle both portions together as per Triumph, but with both packets face down, the top card of the packet on your right (the 8 of diamonds) will end up on top while the rest of the stack remain intact."

p335 Mnemonica, Juan Tamariz

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby NCMarsh » May 26th, 2009, 2:59 pm

The appendices to Mnemonica are books unto themselves...

Philippe Billot
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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Philippe Billot » May 26th, 2009, 4:46 pm

mrgoat wrote:"WITH DAI VERNON'S TRIUMPH SHUFFLE

The incredibly clever shuffle described by Vernon in his trick "Triumph" can be also used for bringing any card to the top of the deck. Let's say the deck is in mnemonic order and that you need to bring the 8 of diamonds (29) to the top without disturbing the rest of the stack. Cut exactly above the 8 diamonds and draw the lower packet to the right in preparation for a riffle shuffle. If you now riffle both portions together as per Triumph, but with both packets face down, the top card of the packet on your right (the 8 of diamonds) will end up on top while the rest of the stack remain intact."

p335 Mnemonica, Juan Tamariz


It's logic because Vernon used a Strip Out Shuffle with a Block Transfer. A false shuffle in which you can displace a card or a block of cards. Marlo explained this clearly in 1959 in his book Riffle Shuffle System.


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