Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

[Kent Gunn]

Some guy wrote this book. I learned a trick from it. I've only been doing this for 30 years. I should be better at it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-EiHtd8UxY

Anybody ever heard of this guy who wrote the book?

[AJM]

Nah - never heard of him.

Nice video though Mr G.

Andrew

[Jeff Eline]

Nice Kent!

[David Regal]

Stuart Judah, yes?

[Kent Gunn]

My research team assures me the earliest sequence is Judah's.

In the Kaufman book there's a discussion that Dingle didn't want to include, because it wasn't his. The Walton sequence is in Ibidem. I don't have the Judah text. (Trip to Byron Walker's will get me a look into the archives.) If you know which work it's in, I'd appreciate that information.

My, not very contributory, involvement is. I saw Dingle do it on TV. I worked it out from that. I was in my teens, at the time. I use different sleights in the displays I got from reading the 2nd Ascanio book. I like setting the card on the table. I think the Ascanio stuff helps hide the displacing mechanism better than keeping the cards in one's hands.

I like doing this version of oil and water more than any other I've worked up. It generally gets a good reaction from laymen. I think it goes by poorly posted magicians.


Now I'm rambling, dammit, sorry.

[David Thomas]

What's the name of this trick I can't remember....I know it's oil and water but waht's official name???

[Joe Pecore]

From what I've researched, it was originally called "Like seeks Like" http://geniimagazine.com/wiki/index.php/Oil_and_Water

[Richard Kaufman]

Part of the trick is actually Ricky Jay's--it might, in fact, be that combining all the elements that's Ricky's contribution. That credit was not in the book for reasons too long to go into here. In fact, the routine should not have been in the book since it wasn't Derek's.

[David Thomas]

I haven't bout this book yet, but I should be getting it in a few weeks. From what I knew, oil and vinegar was the only oil and water in the book, but I don't think this is it (correct me if I'm wrong).

[Joe Pecore]

Sorry, I thought you meant "oil and water" in general. Not this specific version of it.

[David Thomas]

I prefer Larry Jennings' oil and water.

Thanks Anyway Joe. ;)

[Richard Kaufman]

Which one? Jennings had several, the best known of which is actually comprised of sequences by Ray Kosby and Dai Vernon (to whom Larry gave credit).

[David Thomas]

I'm quite the beginner, and this is the only Jennings oil and water I know of. I learned it from his Dvd, "Thoughts on Cards". "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWsYxAnuqGQ"

Is That the one?

[Kent Gunn]

Richard,

The ramblings of this thread have gotten me lost and I started it. Could you please let me know the know sources for the version of oil and water, called oil and vinegar in the book The Complete Works of Derek Dingle.

Whatever in the heck it is I did in that video deserves a better performance, I know. I'd like to know the routine's originator though, if I am asked, by a magician, when I do the routine.

Kent

[Darryl Harris]

Richard mentions in The Complete Works of Derek Dingle that "Oil & Vinegar," was a combination of an old idea of Stewart JAMES, not Judah, and Roy Walton's Oil & Queens from The Devil's Playthings. If memory serves, the specific James idea was not referenced.

DVH

[Richard Kaufman]

I could have easily been mistaken, just as I was in "Silver Quick" when I referenced an idea belonging to Bob Ostin instead of Bob Read (or vice versa, I really can't remember now). I was relying on Dingle for the credits ... and I can laugh about it now.

[Edwin Corrie]

The first part of Oil and Vinegar is a refined handling of "Oil and Water" in "The Magic World of Stewart Judah" (1966).

[magicbean]

Kent,

I saw the same Oil and Water presentation on the Tom Schneider show in the 70's. It was such a memorable effect that it became a favorite.

At that time Dingle had published a a small paperback witten by Harry Lorayne with anotther ball-buster effect called Color Triumphant. Remember that?

Tough stuff for teenagers to digest but what a way to set a foundation for the future.

Those where the days.....

[Philippe Billot]

Some guy wrote this book. I learned a trick from it. I've only been doing this for 30 years. I should be better at it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-EiHtd8UxY

Anybody ever heard of this guy who wrote the book?

May be I make a mistake but this version with 6 cards, (two three of a kind) was described by Marlo in Ibidem N 15, dec. 1958, page 291. See First Routine.

On introduction, Marlo wrote : "Using 3 Jacks and Tens : an original version, shown to Vernon, Simon, Altman, Schneider in 1951 at New York

[El Mystico]

I was delighted to see Richard's credit to Ostin above for the last coin in a coins across routine. I'd often wondered where Bob Read had published his handling. Ostin makes far more sense. I guess there are a lot of people out there using Ostin's handling

[Hallas]

Some guy wrote this book. I learned a trick from it. I've only been doing this for 30 years. I should be better at it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-EiHtd8UxY

Anybody ever heard of this guy who wrote the book?

May be I make a mistake but this version with 6 cards, (two three of a kind) was described by Marlo in Ibidem N 15, dec. 1958, page 291. See First Routine.

On introduction, Marlo wrote : "Using 3 Jacks and Tens : an original version, shown to Vernon, Simon, Altman, Schneider in 1951 at New York

Does this post show how effective your performance was, Kent?

As an aside, I always liked George Blake's idea of using cards from an ESP deck (circles and wavy lines)for the oil and water routines.

[Kent Gunn]

Hallas,

I have no idea what your question means.

I choose to answer no.

I am fond of finding the source of a magic trick. I desperately want to know where the stuff I perform comes from. My post did do exactly what I needed it to do. Some of the discourse that led me to my answers didn't meander to this thread.

Now back to your question, "Does this post show how effective your performance was Kent?"

I still pick no as my answer. Do you think my performance was effective?

As to your observation that you like Blake's idea of using ESP cards. I worked in a magic shop when those symbols were the rage. I think the preponderance of them, in that era, has soured me forever. A deck of Bicycles, in pleasant enough company will pass as an everyday item. The ESP symbols will always smack of trick cards to me.

Do you perform a version of oil and water?

I got the honor of having the mighty Mr. Rosenthal review my routine for me. He told me he hated it! I was honored. He did send two full routines to me, one his own construction and done by him. It rocked the house!

I appreciate most the criticism that comes with examples or references to make me better!

[Hallas]

Sorry it wasn't so clear, Kent. I was suggesting your presentation was effective because the post I quoted referred to a six card version.

Re:"I worked in a magic shop when those symbols were the rage. I think the preponderance of them, in that era, has soured me forever." I can't argue with that.

I've never been a big fan of the plot, personally, because I've seen so many bad performances of it. Some which go on too long. I'd not say that about the one demonstrated, nor the excellent one I saw Joshua Jay do before a lecture in Reading last week.

Here's one I played with (and have used with smaller cards in the restaurant) but you won't like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuARtUw_K1k

Apart from the type of cards used, my presentation is a bit too slow here.

Best wishes,
Paul.

[Kent Gunn]

Paul,

I like your version. With the Jumbo cards it is especially nice! The water marker kept the location of the water cards crystal clear! Great idea.

Aha, I finally get your reference!!! I'm such a dullard. I forget some folks just will comment, when they don't a bit about the particulars!

I was confused by a question on my cups and balls routine once. A nice enough lad asked me where I'd learned my version of the Mora Twirl Vanish. I don't use that sleight. I swing my wand around a hand that has it's little ball, long gone. I thought I was paying homage to Vernon, with a little whimsy. I never thought anyone would go for it!

I hope others have enough sense to follow your link!!!

[Hallas]

I don't claim the handling as mine, because it's not. I've been doing it over 20 years on and off but truly am not sure whose it is. In the restaurant, for close up, rather than a glass of water, I have a little wooden marker with wavy lines on I drop onto the water packet every time I turn that pile down, which I feel psychologically blocks people from reaching for the pile. I also start by having the spectator deal the eight cards face down and count them so they are sure exactly how many cards we are dealing with, before showing they are not playing cards.

At the conclusion, even though the cards were handled initially, people can examine them should they wish, dismissing all thought those ESP cards are 'tricky'.

By the way, I searched my library for the Judah book. His version can be found described in "The Magic World of Stewart Judah" on p.53. I had the marketed George Blake version of it when I was about 12 (the only difference was the ESP cards). The Judah routine just has the two unmixes and that's it. It just ends. Seems anti climatic.

Paul.

[Kent Gunn]

Paul,

If you ask the fellows on here, they'll run it down. They'll then run down the antecedents and we'll be back at the original version in Discoverie of Witchcraft, in two or three replies.

I do not have the Magic World of Stewart Judah. The write-up in the big Dingle book as good a place to send anyone who wants to learn it. I will put out an abb (that's an all books bulletin) for the Judah book.

I'll probably stick with the version I do. I have never run into another magician who did the Dingle/Judah/Walton routine. What little I've added is enough to feel it is mine though. I could never publish my handling, it is way too derivative of a way too derivative routine.

I realize many others have better/worse/whatever, routines they prefer. If we all did the same tricks, exactly the same way we'd be hanging out at another forum, eh?

Thank you VERY MUCH for sharing your routine. I will find your store again and get the book Steven recommended so very highly.

[Stan Willis]

My apologies to all for not being able to refer you to the exact previous post in which it was established that the routine in question here Oil and Vinegar actually is a compilation of three contributions of three very well known cardmen.......Stewart Judah; Ricky Jay; and Roy Walton.
The first part of the routine can be traced to Stewart Judah's Oil and Water (The Magic World of Stewart Judah). The second part which bridges the gap between Stewart Judah's Oil and Water and Roy Walton's Oil and Queens is the anti-oil and water by none other than Ricky Jay (and this was confirmed by Richard in the previous post I am having trouble locating). I remember that a number of viewers here were quite surprised when Ricky Jay's name was associated with this routine. The third and final part is of course Roy Walton's Oil and Queens (The Devil's Playthings)
I believe that this is the routine that Derek was a little reluctant to Richard publishing in the book.
Perhaps Richard will be kind enough to verify this again.

[Richard Kaufman]

There were two things that I had seen Derek do, and which I wanted to publish in the book, that are Ricky's. One was the patter for Card Warp, the other was this Oil and Water routine. I asked Derek to phone Ricky and get permission. Derek told me that he had done so, and that Ricky said it was okay.

This was a total screwup. Ricky specifically told Derek not to include the Oil and Water routine in the book! He didn't care about the patter for Card Warp. But Derek got it backward. I spoke with Ricky about this a few years ago and got it cleared up.

[David Thomas]

What's Ricky's patter for cardwarp?

[Richard Kaufman]

Not for me to give away.

[John Carey]

Sorry it wasn't so clear, Kent. I was suggesting your presentation was effective because the post I quoted referred to a six card version.

Re:"I worked in a magic shop when those symbols were the rage. I think the preponderance of them, in that era, has soured me forever." I can't argue with that.

I've never been a big fan of the plot, personally, because I've seen so many bad performances of it. Some which go on too long. I'd not say that about the one demonstrated, nor the excellent one I saw Joshua Jay do before a lecture in Reading last week.

Here's one I played with (and have used with smaller cards in the restaurant) but you won't like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuARtUw_K1k

Apart from the type of cards used, my presentation is a bit too slow here.

Best wishes,
Paul.

Nice one Paul.
Just needs a bit more pace/accelaration as per what you mentioned presentation wise.
Thanks for sharing

Best

John