Floating Table spam

Discuss products and their reviews in Genii.
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mrgoat
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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby mrgoat » January 4th, 2013, 1:01 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:But we're not in mainstream publishing.


No one said you were.

Richard Kaufman wrote:Film critics get free tickets to the screening of films. They give either good or bad reviews.


Don't think they do, certainly didn't at the publishing house that makes the UK's largest cinema mag where I worked next door to them. They get sent DVD Screener copies that they have to return. The reviews have to be written and sent to print often before the movie comes out. With a 5/6 week lead time, they couldn't see the films in the cinema. Occasionally they would be private screenings at 20CFox HQ or whatever, but more often than not is was screeners.

Point is, unless you pay for something, or are only given a loaner, then there could be views that your review is biased.

Not in the least am I accusing you of this, just saying why mainstream magazines as a whole do not accept freebies.

Even niche stuff does this though, Leo LaPorte of This Week In Tech podcast always makes a big deal of buying everything he reviews.

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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby Bill Mullins » January 4th, 2013, 1:19 pm

What do you mean by "mainstream publishing"? National newspapers? General circulation magazines? (how many subscribers are necessary?)

Is Genii "mainstream"? If not, why hold it to those standards?

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mrgoat
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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby mrgoat » January 4th, 2013, 1:33 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:What do you mean by "mainstream publishing"? National newspapers? General circulation magazines? (how many subscribers are necessary?)


Anything that isn't niche. Same as mainstream movies, mainstream TV, mainstream clothes even. It's a well used term here, maybe it doesn't translate.

Bill Mullins wrote:Is Genii "mainstream"? If not, why hold it to those standards?


I'm not holding genii to any standards, just discussing reviews in general.

Editorial integrity isn't something that is only desirable when one has a certain number of readers.

Again, not accusing Genii of being bought, not accusing them of not having editorial integrity (ooh, double negative).

Any review that wants to be seen as independent needs to be independent. IMHO.

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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby Bill Mullins » January 4th, 2013, 1:34 pm

mrgoat wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:Film critics get free tickets to the screening of films. They give either good or bad reviews.


Don't think they do, certainly didn't at the publishing house that makes the UK's largest cinema mag where I worked next door to them. They get sent DVD Screener copies that they have to return. The reviews have to be written and sent to print often before the movie comes out. With a 5/6 week lead time, they couldn't see the films in the cinema. Occasionally they would be private screenings at 20CFox HQ or whatever, but more often than not is was screeners.


I have read many times in Roger Ebert's column about where he goes (for free) to screenings of films.


Point is, unless you pay for something, or are only given a loaner, then there could be views that your review is biased.

Not in the least am I accusing you of this, just saying why mainstream magazines as a whole do not accept freebies.

Even niche stuff does this though, Leo LaPorte of This Week In Tech podcast always makes a big deal of buying everything he reviews.


There are always views that reviews are biased. Google "Leo Laporte is biased".

mainstream magazines as a whole do not accept freebies.


This is absolutely not true. I worked at a music store when in high school in Nashville. We bought and sold used albums/CDs. We often would buy promotional copies of music from writers who had been sent them for review. These reviews ended up in Rolling Stone, Billboard, etc. -- as mainstream as it gets for the music industry.

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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby Bill Mullins » January 4th, 2013, 1:39 pm

I really don't think this is an issue in magic reviews. The community is so small that the reviewers are known quantities. Is there anyone who doubts that Michael Close, when he is reviewing, is independent? Anyone who suspects that Eric Mead would whitewash a review because he didn't pay for the book?

Independence is much more dependent on the integrity of the reviewer than who pays for the product being reviewed.

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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby El Mystico » January 4th, 2013, 1:54 pm

Very interesting discussion.
but - I feel this is a bit of a non-issue. I can't think of any review in one of the mainstream magic magazines I thought was biased.

Interestingly, I wouldn't say the same of any on-line source.

I do feel a bit uncomfortable when I see reviewers selling their reviewed products online; doesn't thst give them an incentive to give positive reviews? But when I think of the reviewers I know who do this, I know I respect their honesty.

So, yes, there is potential for abuse. But I think that in this relatively small, relatively weird, community, we keep ourselves under control.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 4th, 2013, 2:03 pm

If you go to The Strand bookstore in Manhattan, one of the largest in the country, it is filled with review copies of books that it has bought from the reviewers. This is true of used bookstores all around the country (and used to be true of second hand CD stores when such a thing still existed).

Things may work differently in the UK, Damian, but this is SOP here in the US.

And what does a reviewer selling an item that has been reviewed have to do with the review itself? Nothing! Reviewers sell good stuff and bad stuff--stuff they like or don't like. What's the difference. Absolutely nothing wrong with it.
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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby erdnasephile » January 4th, 2013, 2:40 pm

I think a bigger potential source of bias in magic reviews are the relationships reviewers have with the producers of the product under review. Mr. Close and others have written about about the difficulties inherent in reviewing the products of friends. I'm amazed Genii's reviewers do as an objective job as they do.

IMHO, the ideal reviewer would be someone who loves magic more than they love being liked and who values serving their readers more than promoting their own egos.

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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 4th, 2013, 4:16 pm

We're all aware of how small the magic community is. It's hard to avoid bumping into connections. However, I stand by the integrity of every person who reviews items for Genii. I know them all for many years and we've all had discussions about this.
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Andrew Pinard
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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby Andrew Pinard » January 4th, 2013, 5:02 pm

Wow.

Glad to see the level of discourse, although it went off on a great tangent. All I was really interested in was the possible convenience of receiving review copies by those who chose to advertise in the magazine.

While I agree with the sometimes all-too-cozy nature of our gene puddle and the challenges associated when reviewing friend/acquaintance products, I also believe that, while most reviewers do a good job in providing their readers with good advice related to the projects they are reviewing, there is still likely a market for a journal that adopts some of the items discussed above. Not to combat any particular bias or special interest, but in the interest of improving the field at large.

Having reviewed a number of items (all paid for out of my own pocket I might add) I truly appreciate the effort made by the current crop of reviewers. They do their best to serve their readers by providing thorough, thoughtful and context-based insights into the products they review...
Last edited by Andrew Pinard on January 4th, 2013, 5:03 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: typo

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 4th, 2013, 7:16 pm

Advertising in the magazine is not related in any way to those same companies sending review copies of items. We neither encourage nor discourage any company to send items for review, unless the item itself is so obviously wonderful that one of us feels compelled to tell everyone about it.
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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby VanDoren » January 9th, 2013, 5:04 pm

For anyone who has an interest, I have ask Genii if they are interested in Reviewing my book. Still waiting a reply.

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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby Tom Pilling » January 10th, 2013, 6:05 am

I'm not sure where Mr Goat's certainty comes from re: free review copies and bias. I know jazz reviewers from The Times, The Guardian, Jazzwise etc.

All the review copies are free, and it has zero bearing on the subsequent review. If a publisher wants their books reviewed, they send out free copies. It is as simple as that.

Again, my own mother published dozens of children's novels through large imprints, (Penguin, Hodder etc.), they send out free review copies.

This is a ridiculous argument. Love your work, Mr Goat, but c'mon.

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mrgoat
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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby mrgoat » January 10th, 2013, 6:10 am

Tom Pilling wrote:I'm not sure where Mr Goat's certainty comes from re: free review copies and bias.


I worked for 8 years in magazine publishing, mainly on tech journals. Nothing was ever given for free. All the kit was loaners.

Tom Pilling wrote:This is a ridiculous argument. Love your work, Mr Goat, but c'mon.


I don't think it's an argument. Just pointing out that in order to never be accused of any bias, especially in a niche environment, you need to not accept freebies.

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Q. Kumber
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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby Q. Kumber » January 10th, 2013, 6:18 am

I have always assumed that items sent to magic magazines for review were not expected to be returned.

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Matthew Field
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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby Matthew Field » January 10th, 2013, 6:45 am

Sorry, Goat. You're mistaken here. Items for review in magic magazines are sent free. Only rarely (for a super expensive item) is return requested. Maybe in tech journals (where the kit is very expensive) are items loaners, as is the case in automobile reviews.

Free magic items does not necessarily mean the items will be reviewed -- there are too many and magazine space is limited.

[I was a video reviewer for Genii for 5 years and reviewed all sorts of products for the Magic Circular in England for nearly 8 years.]

Matt Field

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Q. Kumber
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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby Q. Kumber » January 10th, 2013, 7:08 am

In my teenage years the best reviewers of books were Goodliffe and Lloyd Jones. I bought many books that I would never have considered because of their recommendations.

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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby mrgoat » January 10th, 2013, 7:25 am

Matthew Field wrote:Sorry, Goat. You're mistaken here. Items for review in magic magazines are sent free.


Where did I say they weren't?

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Matthew Field
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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby Matthew Field » January 10th, 2013, 9:05 am

mrgoat wrote:
Matthew Field wrote:Sorry, Goat. You're mistaken here. Items for review in magic magazines are sent free.


Where did I say they weren't?


What you wrote was, "They should either buy them or get review copy loaners. Absolutely. In my opinion."

If I misinterpreted your meaning, my apologies.

Matt Field

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mrgoat
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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby mrgoat » January 10th, 2013, 9:15 am

Matthew Field wrote:
mrgoat wrote:
Matthew Field wrote:Sorry, Goat. You're mistaken here. Items for review in magic magazines are sent free.


Where did I say they weren't?


What you wrote was, "They should either buy them or get review copy loaners. Absolutely. In my opinion."

If I misinterpreted your meaning, my apologies.

Matt Field


No problem!

:)

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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby Ian Kendall » January 10th, 2013, 10:16 am

My pedantic brain is still reeling from Damian's split infinitive. Poor work, wee man.

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mrgoat
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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby mrgoat » January 10th, 2013, 11:55 am

Shut up and have another toffee.

:)

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Q. Kumber
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Re: Floating Table spam

Postby Q. Kumber » January 10th, 2013, 12:12 pm



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