Magic in BoingBoing

Discussions of new films, books, television shows, and media indirectly related to magic and magicians. For example, there may be a book on mnemonics or theatrical technique we should know or at least know about.
Bill Mullins
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Re: Magic in BoingBoing

Postby Bill Mullins » January 30th, 2016, 10:46 pm

Tom Stone wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:
MagicbyAlfred wrote:Good point. But I wonder who, if anyone, holds the copyright?


It makes no difference -- magic tricks generally aren't copyrightable.

That's simply not true, but is a lie mostly propagated by crooks.


A fair reading of your comment is that you are mostly calling me a crook. I'll assume that is not your intention.

I'll also amend my original post by saying "In America . . . ".

Otherwise, my statement stands. You can copyright a specific presentation of a trick (the patter), a well-defined character (Piff the Magic Dragon), a recording of a performance of a trick, a written description of a trick (lecture notes or a book), or original graphics used in a trick. But the trick itself is not copyrightable.

Reread Sara Crasson's article on copyright and magic tricks in Genii from June 2013.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Magic in BoingBoing

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 31st, 2016, 12:49 am

Tom is still having the fantasy that the law in Europe is the same as in the United States.

We know that's not true; Tom knows it's not true; and I don't know why he insists on repeating it.
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Tom Stone
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Re: Magic in BoingBoing

Postby Tom Stone » January 31st, 2016, 3:11 am

Bill Mullins wrote:A fair reading of your comment is that you are mostly calling me a crook. I'll assume that is not your intention.

I'll also amend my original post by saying "In America . . . ".

It was not my intention, just sloppy writing. And the amendment is appreciated.
Otherwise, my statement stands. You can copyright a specific presentation of a trick (the patter), a well-defined character (Piff the Magic Dragon), a recording of a performance of a trick, a written description of a trick (lecture notes or a book), or original graphics used in a trick. But the trick itself is not copyrightable.

It doesn't make sense to say "you can copyright..." like it is voluntary or optional when copyright is automatic.
Reread Sara Crasson's article on copyright and magic tricks in Genii from June 2013.

One of Sara Crasson's examples was, broken down to its essentials:

Person X create an original piece.
Person A makes use of X's piece as a part within his own piece, unknown to X.
Person B then plagarize person A's piece, and thereby also person X's piece.
Person A then sue person B for copyright infringement, still unknown to X.
Person A wins the case, with the exception that the court says that person B have not infringed on person A's copyright when it comes to the part that was created by person X.

Sara Crasson's conclusion is that the court have proven that person X have no copyright on her piece, despite X not even being a part of the case. Which makes it reasonable to say that Sara Crasson is an incompetent hack.

performer
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Re: Magic in BoingBoing

Postby performer » January 31st, 2016, 5:21 am

I am not sure that copyright law is that different in Europe than it is in America. I think there are minor differences but it is more or less the same. Britain is part of Europe (of course it isn't really) but you can't copyright a trick there either.

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Tom Stone
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Re: Magic in BoingBoing

Postby Tom Stone » January 31st, 2016, 7:21 am

performer wrote:I am not sure that copyright law is that different in Europe than it is in America. I think there are minor differences but it is more or less the same.

It have been two completely different beasts. In the US it was designed to protect the publishers, and in Europe it was designed to protect the creators. In 1989, US signed a treaty in order to adapt the same system as in Europe. The adaption goes slow because those that benefited the most from the pre-89 system are throwing a wrenches into the works and are trying to stop, or even reverse it. Which can't be done, since others are benefiting just as much from being able to rely on the international treaty abroad. So US are at an impasse where they try to both have the cookie and eat it, where they want to have all the benefits of the treaty but none of the obligations. Richard believe that it all will revert back to pre-89, while I believe it has come too far for that. Legislation is not a constant, but a living thing that changes over time, just like society.
Britain is part of Europe (of course it isn't really) but you can't copyright a trick there either.

It makes no sense to say "you can" or "you can't". It is automatic.
www.gov.uk says that you automatically get copyright protection when you create original dramatic and artistic work. So if your trick is original, dramatic and/or artistic, it is covered.

P.T.Widdle
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Re: Magic in BoingBoing

Postby P.T.Widdle » January 31st, 2016, 10:54 am

observer wrote:All this thread is doing is exacerbating the worldwide bandwidth shortage.


You are welcome to stop reading it.

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Magic in BoingBoing

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 31st, 2016, 11:35 am

Tom Stone wrote: "It makes no sense to say "you can" or "you can't" " [copyright a trick]. It is automatic. http://www.gov.uk says that you automatically get copyright protection when you create original dramatic and artistic work. So if your trick is original, dramatic and/or artistic, it is covered."

I agree with Tom. U.S. copyright law states essentially the same. There is no such thing as one "copyrighting" any work, be it a song, a novel, a film, or a magic trick. That is a widely held misunderstanding of copyright law. As I have said before, and as Tom correctly notes, a copyright arises immediately and automatically upon creation. "Creation," in turn, occurs when the work is embodied into a fixed medium. The fact that there may yet have been no U.S. court that has correctly interpreted the existing federal statutes and applied them to a magic trick, and published such a decision, does not negate the existence of the law. A magic trick is like a song - a creative work of the author. And like I have mentioned before, even a song gets no copyright protection until it is embodied in a fixed medium (e.g. tape, notes written on the staff on music paper, a DVD etc.) The Court system is painfully slow. It was long a violation of the right of equal protection under the U.S. Constitution to racially discriminate or deny women the right to vote. But until the Supreme Court got around (years and years later) to articulating and affirming these rights and violations in a formal opinion, people got away with denying others rights they already possessed.

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Magic in BoingBoing

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 16th, 2016, 1:30 pm

Meanwhile on the N train ... the magic of time travel

http://boingboing.net/2016/03/16/four-s ... ins-p.html
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Jonathan Townsend
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HOUDINI and Magic in BoingBoing

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 17th, 2016, 9:35 am

News for Houdini etc ...

http://boingboing.net/2016/03/17/long-l ... manus.html

Lovecraft and Houdini - manuscript for auction
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Bill Mullins
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Re: Magic in BoingBoing

Postby Bill Mullins » March 23rd, 2016, 9:43 am

Today, any reader of Boing Boing will learn more about the striking vanish than magicians who use it would probably like. And neither Doctorow nor Andy mention David Williamson at all.

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Re: Magic in BoingBoing

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 22nd, 2016, 12:30 am

boingboing.net/2016/05/21/a-taxonomy-of-unethical-techno.html

Exposure of a sort. Hacks are our base methods.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Jonathan Townsend
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SQUARE CIRCLE 2016

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 1st, 2016, 3:36 pm

Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Magic in BoingBoing

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 3rd, 2016, 9:32 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Today, any reader of Boing Boing will learn more about the striking vanish than magicians who use it would probably like. And neither Doctorow nor Andy mention David Williamson at all.


I don't know- I am saddened by this kind of thing, maybe a little angry too. It seems unjust that other kinds of creative work are protected from publication by one other than the creator without the creator's permission. Bad enough that such a precious secret is being exposed to laymen, but to not even give credit where credit is due? It's just wrong...

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Magic in BoingBoing

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 3rd, 2016, 10:28 pm

Not giving credit is a mistake, and one likely caused by the loss of credit somewhere along the line of people putting it up on YouTube endlessly and not crediting Williamson. The writer on Boing Boing would certainly give the credit if he knew about it.
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Jonathan Townsend
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Gabor elementals stir

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 7th, 2016, 1:50 am

Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Magic in BoingBoing

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 5th, 2016, 4:03 pm

Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Jonathan Townsend
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about that dress... blue?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 6th, 2017, 10:54 pm

Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time


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