And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Discussions of new films, books, television shows, and media indirectly related to magic and magicians. For example, there may be a book on mnemonics or theatrical technique we should know or at least know about.
Roger M.
Posts: 1598
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Roger M. » November 5th, 2007, 8:45 pm

It sort of reminds me of the old hustlers creed:
"show me a man who says he can't be hustled, and I'll show you a man who's going home broke".

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 6th, 2007, 8:12 am

...it is highly likely that the activity Dr. Karger saw was the result of human artifice not "unknown physics.
Are you familiar with the Rosenheim case, the conditions under which Dr. Karger worked, or even Dr. Karger's understanding of "human artifice"?

If not, then your opinion isn't worth much, unfortunately..

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 6th, 2007, 4:11 pm

No Iain, I'm not familiar with the particulars, but I find it unacceptable that this ONE case, investigated by this particular scientist (who may or may not have a clue about how magic works) differs from ALL THE OTHERS that are well-documented to the point that a conclusion may be drawn that "proves the paranormal" or any other conclusion that tosses established physics into the trash.

By the way, William of Occam is on the phone. He needs to talk to you.

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 6th, 2007, 4:51 pm

I am somewhat familiar with the particulars of the case. I am also familiar with this particular "investigator." He found Uri Geller to be genuine, or at least implied so in one of his "investigations." He is an investigator who goes in with an agenda. That may not be good.

No matter how stringent a set of restrictions a scientific team places upon a subject, if the team does not know basic principles of magic, they cannot possibly catch all the cheating.

There was an investigation of several mediums, including John Edward, a few years ago. The team thought they had accounted for everything. They had a Faraday cage for the medium to be in while trying to make contact with the other side. They kept the names of the subjects secret. Still, the mediums were able to produce what the investigators thought was legitimate information. They left out a lot of information, though. For example, they did not say whether any of the mediums were allowed to take bathroom breaks outside the Faraday cage. They did not say whether mediums were allowed to keep their cell phones. They didn't mention whether bathrooms were inspected to make certain no information was passed (no pun intended) while the mediums were out of sight.

For any paranormal investigation team to have any credibility in my book, there must be at least one magician, either a skilled amateur or a professional on the team. This is why people like Ray Hyman are so important to this kind of research. He is a nice man. He doesn't come across as belligerent. But he can spot the "work" without much trouble.

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 6th, 2007, 8:25 pm

...any other conclusion that tosses established physics into the trash.
Of course, I can't speak for Dr. Karger, but from what I know he would be the LAST person to dismiss "established" physics.

Let's just put trickery aside for a moment [if that's possible on the Genii forum!]... my post above is simply a reference to an esteemed and respected physicist [say what you will about his "agenda", which is your opinion - I'm actually for once talking about verifiable facts!] whose WORK EXPERIENCE in science leads him to a conviction that there are indeed worlds beyond the scientifically measurable.

I'm much more inclined to listen to HIS rational [for that's indeed what they are] explanations than suffer the dismissive and ill-informed opinions of Mr. Kaufman!

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 6th, 2007, 8:53 pm

Karger was 27 when he investigated the supposed phenomenon. How naive was he at the time of his investigation?

How much, if any, knowledge of conjuring did he have then?

How much of a believer was he at the time? Do you know? I don't.

He's a scientist only when he's doing science. When he's trying to validate beliefs, he isn't. If he thinks Geller is real, his credentials for investigating "paranormal phenomenon" are both dubious and thin.

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 6th, 2007, 9:04 pm

Here is a quote from Dr. Karger concerning Geller: "The powers of this man are a phenomenon that in theoretical physics cannot be explained." (Dr. Friedbert Karger, physicist, the Max Planck Institute for Plasma Physics, Munich)

Or read this one, Iain, http://www.uri-geller.com/pdf/meckelburg_05_05.pdf

A plasma physicist from the Max Planck institute may not be the best reviewer of the "physics" of a poltergeist. I come from an engineering background, with extensive study in German. I have found that engineers who have no training in sleight of hand or the psychology of deception often resort to the most complex explanations of how a piece of chicanery is accomplished. Physicists are not far behind them in their ability to interpret what they perceive as psychic phenomena.

If Karger does not have an agenda, why does he keep giving positive reviews to those things that we are all certain are pure [censored]?

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 7th, 2007, 6:42 am

If Karger does not have an agenda, why does he keep giving positive reviews to those things that we are all certain are pure [censored]?
Maybe YOU are certain it's pure [censored]. Please don't speak for me.

I'll say it simply again - in Karger's many years experience AS A PHYSICIST of international repute, he has come to a conviction of an existence "beyond" the scientifically measureable.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that he wouldn't be fooled by a good Twisting the Aces presentation.And perhaps Gellar DID fool him, I don't know. But the heart of what I'm saying is that his understanding and lifelong study of physics, science and the material world have led him to strongly disagree with those who would restrict existence to this material substance.

Take from that what you will.

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 7th, 2007, 6:51 am

Thanks for the reference to Karger.

Part of this discussion is reminiscent of how things went for another respected physicist, Brian Josephson.

Here is a LINK to more about his career path.

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 7th, 2007, 8:12 am

Thanks in return for the Josephson reference. I particularly like this :

""Physicists have an emotional response when they hear anything connected with parapsychology," he says. "Their opinion of parapsychology research is not based on evaluation of the evidence but on a dogmatic belief that all research in this field is false.""

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 7th, 2007, 9:09 am

The reason physicists react that way is because what they do is a recognized discipline whereas parapsychology is not.

Ive seen parapsychological research. What Ive seen was sloppy in the extreme with the scientists not performing due dilligence to screen out human artifice. See Banachecks Alpha Project as a good example of how easy it is to fool scientists.even sharp ones.

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 7th, 2007, 9:22 am

Ive seen parapsychological research. What Ive seen was sloppy in the extreme with the scientists not performing due dilligence to screen out human artifice. See Banachecks Alpha Project as a good example of how easy it is to fool scientists.even sharp ones.
I just want to get this straight David. I don't know your background, but as I understand it, you're saying that you understand and recognise "sloppy in the extreme" physics research where experienced and esteemed physics scientists obviously don't. Is that right?

If so, you'll need to provide some credibility. Otherwise it's just, er, pure [censored].

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 7th, 2007, 11:17 am

I just wanted to throw this out... I hope it's taken in the spirit [no pun intended] in which it's meant! ;)

""Magicians have an emotional response when they hear anything connected with parapsychology. Their opinion of parapsychology is not based on evaluation of the evidence but on a dogmatic belief that magicians can fool the pure [censored] out of anyone, anytime."

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 12th, 2007, 8:28 pm

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying because scientists are trained to examine Nature's processes. Those processes are reliable in that if you conduct an experiment in the same manner and under the same conditions, you will get the same results. Nature is reliable.

Human beings aren't as reliable as Nature and artifice is easily changed and adapted to fit the circumstances as the aforementioned Alpha Project (which I suggest you read up on) clearly demonstrated.

On another front, a chap I knew some years back was a top researcher at UCLA with a world class reputation. He knew Thelma Moss, PhD (a well-known "parapsychologist") was conducting research on a well-known "psychic" in her lab at UCLA. What the well-known psychic did not know (and apparently Thelma did not know or remember) was that Moss's lab was equipped with closed circuit television. So my friend sat and watched the investigation without either Moss or the psychic knowing they were being watched.

Moss was taking Kirlian photos of the man's hands. My friend watched as Thelma placed his hand on the plate for the photo and then walked away to activate the apparatus. What she did not see and what my friend watched happen was the psychic pluck a hair from his head and put it under his thumb.

The Kirlian photo when developed showed a "bolt of energy" coming out of this guy's thumb.

When my friend told Thelma what he saw, she refused to believe him. At the least, such a report would require the results be questioned or the protocol repeated under more stringent conditions, but Thelma was a believer and wouldn't hear of it.

That's not science. That's [censored].

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 12th, 2007, 10:01 pm

Originally posted by Iain Hamilton:
Ive seen parapsychological research. What Ive seen was sloppy in the extreme with the scientists not performing due dilligence to screen out human artifice. See Banachecks Alpha Project as a good example of how easy it is to fool scientists.even sharp ones.
I just want to get this straight David. I don't know your background, but as I understand it, you're saying that you understand and recognise "sloppy in the extreme" physics research where experienced and esteemed physics scientists obviously don't. Is that right?
Iain, although I know him to normally be a careful reader and writer, I'm not sure David's affirmative answer was to your literal question, largely due (I suspect) to your substitution of the word physics for parapsychological.

I doubt that David would presume to know when physics scientists are being sloppy with physics research (which was your question, if I read it correctly). Rather, Davids point (which is a point that has been made by many skeptics and debunkers, dating back to Crookes tests in the last quarter of the 19th century) was that scientists can easily but unknowingly be out of their element when they try to use their scientific knowledge to test a purported phenomenon in the field of parapsychology.

Being an expert in a physical science does not automatically qualify one to be a competent parapsychological researcher/tester.

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 13th, 2007, 9:17 pm

Being an expert in a physical science does not automatically qualify one to be a competent parapsychological researcher/tester.
... then might I ask, what DOES qualify one to be a competent parapsychological researcher/tester?

There have been some very good and valid points so far. But, leaving aside parapsychology for the moment, the reason I referenced Karger was that AS A PHYSICIST, he HAS BEEN LED to a conviction of the existence of a species of matter outwith/beyond what is scientifically measurable. These conclusions have been drawn from his OBJECTIVE examinations of the laws of nature, both at macro and micro levels.

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 13th, 2007, 10:11 pm

Originally posted by Iain Hamilton:
what DOES qualify one to be a competent parapsychological researcher/tester?
Great question! I don't have the answer because it's really not my gig. That said, I do think that one qualification would be the ability to sniff out deception, trickery, etc. often that means someone who is trained in magic if only because this field is full of those kinds of frauds.

If I understand your follow-up comment, it reminds me of one of the themes of Gary Zukav's book, The Dancing Wu Li Masters. In essence, as quantum physicists explore the world of muons, pions, etc., they begin to describe the phenomena they observe in somewhat metaphysical terms (e.g., given the result of the slit experiment, they wonder if electrons are "conscious"), which is not "normal" for scientists. Then again, one of the points is that muons aren't "normal" either!

But IMO stretching ones mind to describe observable phenomena in quantum mechanical research that are not scientifically measurable with todays technology and understanding (remember, for example, that we suspected/knew about gravity long before we could measure it) seems a far cry from testing claims of telekinetic powers. As David said, one is science (albeit perhaps is a nascent state), and the other is not.

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 14th, 2007, 6:23 am

The main point I'm trying very hard to make here is that SCIENCE HAS ITS LIMITS. At that point all "testing" and "observing" using material means ends.

There are those who would argue that without material proof, nothing beyond-the-material can exist. That's inane, and somewhat naive in my opinion and experience.

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 14th, 2007, 6:33 am

Originally posted by Iain Hamilton:
The main point I'm trying very hard to make here is that SCIENCE HAS ITS LIMITS. At that point all "testing" and "observing" using material means ends...
As we are material creatures using material means to communicate all we can ultimately discuss is material matters - be they obfuscated by several layers of neurological processing or not.

Science is limited to offering a "model" which uses the least possible presumptions about the world and which offers the most accounting for known data AND offers the most predicting of things which are themselves measurable.

Subjective experience is open for scientific study.

Not so sure folks around here are ready to accept a connection between behavioral conditioning processes and what we call beliefs.

Guest

Re: And You Wonder Why Mentalism is Popular?

Postby Guest » November 14th, 2007, 7:30 am

Not so sure folks around here are ready to accept a connection between behavioral conditioning processes and what we call beliefs.
I tend to agree with you!


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