Magic in BoingBoing

[Brad Henderson]

good

[Brad Henderson]

but seriously I contend that knowing the secret to a magic trick changes your experience of that trick. You contend that knowing a magic secret will improve one's viewing of a magician or a magic trick. Experience and a study of history shows us that that is almost never the case - especially when the sole content being conveyed is 'how it works'.

You yourself admit that an audience who knows the secrets of the trick you're about to perform are likely to have a negatively impacted performance experience. What we seem to be disagreeing on is how much time is required before exposure starts to change those experiences into positive ones - of course, we have no evidence that it will, but
whatever. I say why make time span the issue? why not just use caution when we choose to teach magic to others and ask ourselves if what we are teaching is truly likely to improve someone's appreciation or not.

[Bill Mullins]

Boingboing features Brad Henderson.

And Marshall Brodien.

[Ted M]

Heh. Score one for BoingBoing.

I was given a deck of TV Magic Cards, but I couldn't do anything but riffle them. Now I understand -- Marshall Brodien tells us they're for ages 6 to 60, and I was only 5.

His deck in the ad has the Ace of Spades as the force card. This could be a completely wrong memory, but I think mine was a low red card, something like the 3 Diamonds. So I'm curious: were these decks not all identical, printed and cut from the same single sheet? Was each TV Magic deck laboriously sorted and hand assembled from 26 regular decks? Does anyone still reading this thread (even, perhaps, a BoingBoing reader?) have one or more vintage decks available to check?

[performer]

Marshall Brodien is doing the "run" move with the svengali deck all wrong. I have seen Darrel make the same mistake. Magicians don't know much about the svengali deck I am afraid. They are all bloody useless at it.

For a moment I thought Widdle had caught Brad out but he is only exposing the silly Joe Stuthard Klip a Card Trick. I have been in touch with Mr Stuthard in the spirit world and he said he doesn't mind a bit. Just as well because whenever I sell the damn thing I expose it every demonstration. It saves having instructions printed.

It is quite legitimate to expose the Klip a Card trick. It is slum magic and belongs to the world of the pitchman rather than the world of the magician.

Now if he was exposing something more serious I would have something to say but he isn't so I won't. Poor old Widdle loses again!!!!

[P.T.Widdle]

@Brad,

Care to explain the hypocrisy that BoingBoing indicated in your exposure video? Or, as they pointed out, is it ok to do when, "it helps you book a gig?"

Congratulations on the extra traffic.

[performer]

He doesn't have to explain it. I just did.

[performer]

He doesn't have to explain it. I just did.

[P.T.Widdle]

Please enlighten me as to other "silly," "slum magic" items that it's OK to expose. Who determines what's "slum magic?" Wait, let me guess. You.

[P.T.Widdle]

but seriously I contend that knowing the secret to a magic trick changes your experience of that trick. You contend that knowing a magic secret will improve one's viewing of a magician or a magic trick. Experience and a study of history shows us that that is almost never the case - especially when the sole content being conveyed is 'how it works'.

Again I point to Penn and Teller's Cups & Balls, Looks Simple, etc.

It's a valid artistic choice, not a moral one.

[Jack Shalom]

FWIW, Barrie Richardson has a nice presentational take on the paper clip card trick.

A single data (datum?) point: my long-suffering wife has ignored magic for years. I did not share methods with her. But she went grudgingly with me recently to see Penn and Teller on Bway and came out a fan. Now, when we watch Fool Us together, I explain to her how Penn is signaling each guest about their methods. She is now fascinated by the show, and enjoys each performance.

By pulling back the curtain a bit, she now understands magic as an art form composed of the same attributes as the other performing arts: skill, talent, imagination, dexterity, taste, rhythm, and so on. Previously, she had no idea.

Do you think I did a bad thing? I don't.

[mr_goat]

Congratulations on the extra traffic.

My blog almost broke when it was on boing boing. They have all the traffics.

[performer]

I don't think Penn and Teller should be exposing the cups and balls either even if they are not exposing it properly.

As to who decides what is slum magic I will concede that you are quite correct in your assumption that naturally it is ME who makes the decision. Normally I prefer them to buy the bloody thing before it is exposed but with the Klip a Card thing I can't be bothered. Besides I got Joe Stuthard's permission from the spirit world on behalf of Brad and as far as I am concerned if the inventor of the stunt says it is all right for Brad to use it then he is well within his rights to do so.

Go and ask him yourself if you don't believe me. I would be happy to teach you how to communicate with dead people. For a very reasonable fee of course. I do have my priorities of course.

Now here is a list of what I consider slum magic. I have sold them for many years to the public in many countries. I am not exposing anything because I make sure that the instructions are quite incomprehensible and that nobody can actually do any of the tricks I sell. Ethics you know.

The svengali deck. This is no longer a trick for magicians. Pitchmen stole it decades ago and possession is nine tenths of the law.
Two Card Monte. I have to say I am not keen on this one because it exposes an actual principle rather than just a trick. I refuse to sell it because of this one factor. Still, it has always been regarded as slum magic.
I am afraid thumb tips have now entered the realm of slum magic and I am upset about this. I also hate the fact that the Dynamic Coins has become slum magic in the UK with lots of laymen purchasing it. Luckily the disease hasn't caught on over here yet. It is a fancier version of the nickel and dimes trick.

The worm (squirmle) is certainly slum magic and magicians have no right to it anyway as it wasn't invented by a magician in the first place. I have sold thousands upon thousands of the bloody things.

The Wonder Mouse is certainly slum magic. The best guy I have ever seen do it was the aforementioned Joe Stuthard. I sell a most wondrous book on the subject which, because of my natural modesty, I am reluctant to inform you all is the best explanation of the item ever produced.

The small plastic cups and balls is slum magic and has always been regarded as such.

And the Dutch Looper trick. I have sold thousands upon thousands of them. This is certainly not exposure because I have never yet met a single person who has been able to figure it out from the instructions. I know this because they come back in droves asking me to teach them how to do it. I merely snarl at them saying "read the instructions" and scare them away. If they are persistent I say "Young man, have you ever heard of David Copperfield? (In the UK I used to say Paul Daniels)" They say "yes". Or at least they used to. Half the time nowadays I find they don't know who Copperfield is any more but I utterly refuse to say Criss Angel. Anyway, when they do say "yes", I enquire "Do you know how he got on television?" They say "no" I then snarl, "He read the instructions!" I then yell at them growling "READ THE INSTRUCTIONS"
That gets rid of them. For some reason nobody has asked me to give a seminar on good public relations and customer service.

There, Widdle old chap. There is the list of slum magic you requested. A partial list anyway. Alas a growing one day by day. I am horrified to see Hummer's floating card and that "delight" thing on every flea market and fair. Delight isn't too bad but it does expose a principle and I do not approve.

Anyway I might as well explain where you can purchase my most wondrous pitch products such as "Marmaduke the Wonder Mouse" and the "Long and the Short of It" There is also a fair bit of pitch information in my e-book "The Wit and Wisdom of Mark Lewis"

Anyway here is a link to it all:
http://www.marklewisentertainment.com/h ... cians.html

[P.T.Widdle]

Exposure is exposure.

http://boingboing.net/2015/10/01/austin ... als-o.html

[mr_goat]

Jesus I wish this thread would get locked and slip away.

All it is doing is confirming to all the boing boing visitors that magicians are nobs.

[Leo Garet]

Jesus I wish this thread would get locked and slip away.

All it is doing is confirming to all the boing boing visitors that magicians are nobs.

Some magicians. And if the visitors can't work out which, they're nobs; with nobs on.

[P.T.Widdle]

Honestly, I started this thread seven pages ago as a convenience so that Genii forum readers (including myself) could see the latest BoingBoing magic posts all in one place, instead of there being a separate thread every time a BB post popped up. Then the exposure issue took over, which I don't think was necessarily a bad thing.

However, I hope this thread stays open mainly for the intended purpose mentioned above.

[mr_goat]

Honestly, I started this thread seven pages ago as a convenience so that Genii forum readers (including myself) could see the latest BoingBoing magic posts all in one place, instead of there being a separate thread every time a BB post popped up. Then the exposure issue took over, which I don't think was necessarily a bad thing.

However, I hope this thread stays open mainly for the intended purpose mentioned above.

Oh it will stay open, RK hardly ever makes a thread vanish.

[mr_goat]

Jesus I wish this thread would get locked and slip away.

All it is doing is confirming to all the boing boing visitors that magicians are nobs.

Some magicians. And if the visitors can't work out which, they're nobs; with nobs on.

Fair point well made.

[P.T.Widdle]

Brad, your reply to the post (pointing out your hypocrisy) in BoingBoing was deeply disingenuous and self-serving, but I hope you are enjoying all the new traffic and attention you are getting from it.

Also, very classy of you to call me an a-hole there instead of here, where Richard rightly does not permit individual personal attacks.

[Brad Henderson]

Exposure is exposure.

http://boingboing.net/2015/10/01/austin ... als-o.html

Ah, my young earth friend has taken the biblical method of argument - take a handful of words, out of context, and place one's faith that it 'proves' some point.

This, again, demonstrates your inexperience in thinking about these issues. There is a difference between teaching and exposing. We have covered that before. You didn't bother to reference those words because tbis is no longer about magic and protecting it, but you defending your little skeptic heroes who know the only one true way to perform magic.

I have never said I had a problem with teaching magic. You and I have even discussed the fact I have been doing so for over 26 years.

Our disagreement comes over exposure and whether or not that is good for magic. You claim it is, with nothing to back it up. I claim it isn't, and have given a handful of examples and even a little experiment to test it out. You have dismissed both.

In order to find the secret to the klip card trick, one need seek it out. When you find it, you are not merely shown the secret (which makes your magical experience a dead end) but are provided instruction in how to use this knowledge to successfully bring a magical experience to others. This is not a dead end and requires more than just being exposed to a secret.

What you keep forgetting, or ignoring, when you invoke your holy father Teller's name is the context, this extra material that goes beyond just 'it's a thread.' In Teller's case it is the context of a specifc type of magic show ABOUT magic. And they address, from the beginning, issues about secrecy and how knowledge of the secrets affects one's experience.

even though he only says a few words, The red ball is not just a trick with a thread. You want to see this as equivalent to a post that says nothing more than 'this is done with a thread.'

For a smart man, you have literally missed the Forrest you are standing in, focusing only on a single tree or two.

but this makes sense. You're a magician and magicians often fail to think about how we make our audiences feel, priviledging out own enjoyment and the tbings WE value over those of our audience.

Is it possible to share magic information with someone in a manner that leads to a deeper appreciation and an increased ability to access the magical experience?

absolutely

is mere exposure to secrets the way to do that?

I can't say I have seen any evidence or a convincing argument made to make me think so.

You Widdle have suggested that any exposure to magic information is good for magic because it MIGHT lead someone to develop an interest in magic. You refuse to consider what exposure to information might take away from someone (in fact you claimed it has zero impact, yet someone don't want people seeing your secrets before showtime), and you never explain how fixating on the least interesting elements of our art, the most mundane, will somehow morph into an appreciation of the deepest elements, those furthest removed from the information spotlighted. You also haven't given a single case of someone, solely finding information that merely
exposes a secret, spring boarding from that into magic.

the method doesn't make us care. The method doesn't make us want to do magic. The mystery does. And those who have experienced the mystery mignt choose
to seek out the secrets is a great thing - as long as they know what they stand to lose in doing so. But make no mistake about it, they aren't getting interested because they read about a one way deck. They get interested from experiencing the magic.

Truth be told, Widdle, I don't care one whit about you. You to me are utterly irrelevant. I do, however, care about magic and when I see people advocating ideas that are bad for magic, I will stand against them.

You can advocate your approach, and I will advocate mine. Just because you have an Internet account and LOVE penn and teller, and randi, and Swiss doesn't give you a free pass from having your ideas confronted.

[P.T.Widdle]

When someone calls me an a-hole (in public), my conversation with them is over.

[Jonathan Townsend]

So it's okay to directly discuss method details on that other site but not here?

Consider how that would go over - a video on YouTube, a method discussion featuring the video there on that site which contains a link to some discussion of the history over on this site.

or would that be too little?

[AdamC]

I'm just amused how petty you guys are.

Look, this is coming from someone who is not a magician. If somebody asks me how a trick is done and I know it, I ask them, Do you really want to know? It's 50/50 whether they say yes or no. Even if I do know I'll say the trick is only part of the performance. The presentation is the rest of it.

I can't do card tricks because I don't have the social skills required to sell them or the bravado to lie with a straight face. I will always be amazed by you pros that can do this day in and day out. The secret to the tricks isn't what makes people want to watch magicians. It's the show.

[Brad Henderson]

yes, Adam. But when we reinforce the idea that the secret is the important element, we teach the audience to look for methods and NOT at the show.

This, by the way, isn't boing boing's fault. It's our fault. WE magicians have taught our audiences that 'catching us' is their job. we have taught them that the secret is important.

We dug our own hole.

Some of us just want to stop the shoveling and perhaps, by changing the way we discuss and teach magic, perhaps build a little ladder.

until we change the way magicians tnink about magic, we will never change the way our audiences think about it.

What you have uncovered here is a fight about magical values. most arts have heated discussions like this - well, most arts that aren't magic. This may explain our second or third class status as an art. As magicians most
of us have failed to have the serious talks about what really matters.

I want to change that. And only by battling bad ideas can we do that.

[performer]

I am amused that Adam is amused. Magicians are among the pettiest people on earth. You should go to another forum called "the magic cafe" to see them really going hammer and tongs at one another!

Insecurity and ego are probably at the root of it all. After all, that may well be what brought them to take up magic in the first place.

[Jonathan Townsend]

I'm just amused how petty you guys are.

Look, this is coming from someone who is not a magician...

Simple enough really: identity defined by narrative context and data ownership. You define yourself by artifacts and narrative context. You'd likely be uncomfortable if the artifacts were offered in public and your narrative context were open to public discussion.

Magic is such a hot-button experience and such a precious thing to notice/refine/build/test/perform that as a group this is kind of an open set with timely access to valuable information filtered by interpersonal considerations away from the open mass market. The community has makers - folks who make the tools. It also has researchers - folks out there finding out what works and some who fret over old incomplete pictures and puzzles. And yes there are some who publish and sell product. Making the props and teaching the methods is usually not so easy as one might wish.

Glad you like how tricks are done. Most in the performing arts I've met are okay about discussing such things though not so often making that information public by way of photos, diagrams etc.

[mr_goat]

yes, Adam. But when we reinforce the idea that the secret is the important element, we teach the audience to look for methods and NOT at the show.

This, by the way, isn't boing boing's fault. It's our fault. WE magicians have taught our audiences that 'catching us' is their job. we have taught them that the secret is important.

We dug our own hole.

Some of us just want to stop the shoveling and perhaps, by changing the way we discuss and teach magic, perhaps build a little ladder.

until we change the way magicians tnink about magic, we will never change the way our audiences think about it.

What you have uncovered here is a fight about magical values. most arts have heated discussions like this - well, most arts that aren't magic. This may explain our second or third class status as an art.

I want to change that. And only by battling bad ideas can we do that.

where's that 'like' button?

[P.T.Widdle]

Nice post about a cool book about Adams Co.

http://boingboing.net/2015/10/02/s-s-ad ... 700-p.html

[Brad Henderson]

if any 'makers' are still reading the forum and have the resources to make a squirting swan as pictured in the book linked to in the previous post, please let me know.

Covet!!!

[Brad Henderson]

So I give you your examples, although I'm not hearing anybody else chime in with their experiences about the internet (or the masked magician) ruining magic. Maybe it's a silent majority.

Yet again, this guy doesn't seem to think so:

I only do about two professional gigs a month, but never has anyone ever said to me "Oh I learned how that was done on youtube exposure channel". Not once. Ever.

Are you going to characterize Goat as one of my heroes as well? .

[/quote]

Funny thing happened today. Working my weekly restaurant gig and a guy says to me, "Hey, didn't you put a magic video on the Internet this week?"

He saw the boing boing post and the business card video.

Turns out the stuff that gets posted online actually gets seen by actual human beings who may actually come to your show.

Who'da thunkit?

[Richard Kaufman]

Without some degree of magic being taught to lay people, no new magicians will develop.

It is from little seeds that flowers grow.

And often the layperson who will later become an amateur or professional magician is accidentally exposed to magic--not given a magic set, not going into a magic shop, not purposefully seeking out a magic website. They "bump" into magic, so to speak.

We should consider ourselves damn fortunate that Boing Boing's chief Mark Frauenfelder is a fan of magic and likes to dabble in it himself! That's a good thing.

From Boing Boing more magicians may come. This benefits our community.

[Brad Henderson]

OK, let's not play fast and loose with words.

No one has ever argued that a chance 'exposure' TO magic might not lead to an interest in magic.

Any of us who were surprised to be visiting by a magician at a restaurant can likely attest to this.

But being exposed to something is different than the exposure of magic.

as humans we can be 'exposed' to a variety of types of information about magic. Some of it may make us more interested, but isn't it equally likely that some might make us less so?

If seeing a great magician more likely results in people wanting to see more magic, and seeing a bad magician results in people wanting to see less, or none at all, doesn't it follow that being opposed to SOME types of magical information might DIScourage an interest in magic?

Of course, and to suggest otherwise is blind foolishness.

The question then, is, does the mere explaining of magic secrets lead to people being more interested in magic or less? and at what cost?

the idea that people will get interested in magic because of the secret is backwards, on so many levels.

This is not to say there aren't ways of interesting people in magic. I just have yet to see any evidence that merely telling them a secret is the way to get it done. And there are obvious disadvantages and costs from merely explaining secrets. To ignore those is equally foolish.

IF we want more people in our 'community' then we should be discussing the best way to get them
interested.

Starting out by revealing the mystery seems to me to be one of the least effective marketing strategies.

[performer]

I would like to get them less interested. Soon there will be no laymen left at this rate.

[P.T.Widdle]

http://boingboing.net/2015/10/05/forewo ... how-t.html

[Joe Pecore]

"The Genii Forums, where magicians keep magic secret in public": http://boingboing.net/2015/09/30/the-ge ... agici.html

[performer]

They are not wrong. Far more tricks are given away here than are given away on the Boingboing site over a longer period. I have already complained about it but nobody ever takes any notice of me.

[Leo Garet]

They are not wrong. Far more tricks are given away here than are given away on the Boingboing site over a longer period. I have already complained about it but nobody ever takes any notice of me.

I know the feeling.
Nobody ever takes any notice of me. It's a Drag, ain't it?

[P.T.Widdle]

Hooray for BoingBoing's latest blog contributor - Richard Kaufman!

"Haunted candy and ghostly bandanas at Tokyo Disneyland"

http://boingboing.net/2015/10/07/hallow ... disne.html

[performer]

Please enlighten me as to other "silly," "slum magic" items that it's OK to expose. Who determines what's "slum magic?" Wait, let me guess. You.

I shall give young Mr Widdle (I don't actually know if he is young or not but most people are younger than me) an example of what I would consider "slum magic"

Here you are. I am afraid that because of impending senility I forgot to include two significant features of the routine. One where the mouse rolls over and two, a ring rising up the pencil. Still it will give you a great idea of a good pocket trick.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvU71dSPfwY