Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

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Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Sebastien L. » September 9th, 2008, 11:39 am

Hi everyone.

I was curious about the old pitchman's item, the Dutch Looper. I've heard much about it and I was trying to track down what I could about this item. I've seen Bob Sheet's Killer Kitson Miracle and understand it's an improved version of the original. I've also read that the Dutch Looper is described in Ken Brooke's The Unique Years, but I am not sure if this is also an improved version.

Can anyone point me to more references on this routine? I am interested in the more basic or older versions and I'd like to see how this trick has evolved. Perhaps even the differences between the pitch version and magicians' versions. I'd appreciate any pointers. Many thanks.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 9th, 2008, 12:26 pm

The best version of this is Pat Page's Three-Card Monte. In his hands it is an absolute stunning miracle. You have to get the gimmick made exactly the way Pat makes his.
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby El Mystico » September 9th, 2008, 12:29 pm


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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Ryan Matney » September 9th, 2008, 12:36 pm

The version in Ken Brooke 'The Unique Years' is the old version without any technical improvments. It is just Ken Brooke's handling of the old trick and exactly as he used to pitch it.

IMHO, The older version is still very effective for laymen as a routine. Pat Page's version will fool those that know the method.
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Sebastien L. » September 9th, 2008, 1:06 pm

Many thanks, Ryan, that's pretty much what I wanted to know. I will track down a copy of the book.

Mr. Kaufman , I believe I know what the exact gimmick is for Mr. Page's routine. It's not quite what I'm going after in this instance.

Now all I'll need to figure out is how to make 14 sets of Dutch Loopers out of 1 deck of cards.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Hallas » September 10th, 2008, 5:20 pm

I remember as a young guy being fooled by Ken's handling for The Dutch Looper even though I was aware of that type of gaff. John Oakley caught me with it. As giveaways and in magic sets of course, one simply shows three cards with a queen in the middle and turns the packet down asking someone to pick the picture card, that's it. Ken made a real routine out of it.

Was it ever called "The Dutch Looper" before Ken's routine? I always thought that bit of B.S. was his.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Edwin Corrie » September 10th, 2008, 8:17 pm

Hallas wrote:Was it ever called "The Dutch Looper" before Ken's routine? I always thought that bit of B.S. was his.


In "Ken Brooke's Magic - The Unique Years" he says it's an old principle and that he himself had been doing it since he was nine. Apparently the "Dutch Looper" thing was just something he dreamed up and has no real significance.

Did you know Arthur Day? He was a good friend of Ken Brooke, and the Dutch Looper was one of his favourites.

I never bought Pat Page's original Kitson Miracle, but it seems to be still available:

http://www.funfilledentertainment.com/CardJ.html

http://www.hocuspocusmagic.com/epages/h ... Miracle%22

http://www.magiclegends.com/gamingequip.html

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 10th, 2008, 8:47 pm

If you've never seen Pat do this, it's a staggering miracle and light years beyond the simple business of having a card hidden behind a flap card.
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Spellbinder » September 28th, 2008, 10:31 am

I've just released an article in The Wizards' Journal #17 (on my site) called "Double Dutch Loopers" which tries to address the original poster's requests:
It goes into the "mysterious" history surrounding this effect, gives both pitchman's and magician's versions including how to mave the various different gimmicks, plus some moves that simplify and "clean-up" a lot of the standard moves. It's written as an introduction to the Dutch Looper for the "inquisitive magician," and is not really intended for those who have been doing it for years.
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » April 7th, 2016, 11:51 am

I am bringing back this old thread from the dead since I know rather a lot about the Dutch Looper having sold and given away thousands of them. I bet I have sold more Dutch Loopers than anyone in history. Patrick Page had an excellent version using a flap card but it really isn't necessary. It does add a tiny bit at the end of the effect but it isn't worth the hassle of making the flap card which must take ages to make a single Looper. I can make 14 in 10 minutes or so out of one deck of cards.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Leo Garet » April 7th, 2016, 12:35 pm

Edwin Corrie wrote:Did you know Arthur Day? He was a good friend of Ken Brooke, and the Dutch Looper was one of his favourites.

We knew Arthur and Hazel, of course. Great people. Arthur was terrific with a pair of scissors and cut all kinds of crazy magic designs and envelopes. He was also a wizard when it came to “fancy” calligraphy. Christmas cards and cards just for the fun of it used to turn up on a regular basis. We have a few here and there, but sadly most are tucked away in the Box-That-Cannot-Be Found.

Oddly, I have no recollection of seeing a silhouette. But he must have.

Courtesy of Paul Stone (if I recall correctly) Arthur did cruise ships for a while, cutting this and that.

Somewhere we have a photo of Arthur and Ken Brooke, both wearing red sponge noses, long before Red Nose Day and all that. Clowns I think they’re were supposed to be.

Old post indeed, but I wasn’t on line when this first appeared. Better late than never, I think.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Edwin Corrie » April 8th, 2016, 3:12 am

I got to know Arthur through origami, but he was incredible with his paper cutting and so immaculately neat in everything he did. Yes, he did do a bit of silhouette work too. He was also a great fan (and I believe a friend) of Tom Mullica. The other day I came across a photo of him in "Pabular", taken at the Ramsay Reunion (1977?).

Just to get back to the Dutch Looper: another related monte routine was Gaetan Bloom's Visible Monte. Different method but a similar idea.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Philippe Billot » April 8th, 2016, 4:01 am

You can find Ken Brooke's The Dutch Looper explained by Lewis Ganson in The Gen, Vol. 13, no 11, March 1958, page 325.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Q. Kumber » April 8th, 2016, 4:22 am

At a magic convention many years ago, Ken Brooke was demming The Dutch Looper.

Suddenly he said, "I'm fed up making these at three in the morning. I'm sick of it. Here you can all have one."

He started throwing sets of cards out to all the magicians around the stand - and there was always a crowd around Ken's stand. After everyone had a set he said, "You all have a set now, but the cards are useless without the instructions and full routine . . . and those are five shillings."

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » April 8th, 2016, 11:19 am

I have always said that Ken Brooke was the greatest magic demonstrator (for magicians) of all time. There has never been one to equal him. But that is because he started on street markets selling magic to the public. He was a GRAFTER! The word "Grafter" is the British word for pitchman. And in fact I knew many old grafters that knew him too. You always have an edge over other magicians if you have the ability to draw crowds and pitch magic to the public. Or any product come to that. Very few magicians have done grafting to any extent. I know Tommy Cooper worked the glass cutter and a tiny few others. Harry Lorayne also pitched svengali decks at one time. It gives you what I call "the grafter's edge" which is a certain shrewdness concerning human nature and this is of inestimable value when you are working to people. Because magic is not props or tricks. It is PEOPLE.

Any fool can manipulate cards or coins (and there are a lot of fools in magic). Great magicians know how to manipulate the PEOPLE. And Ken Brooke certainly knew how to do that. And yes. I learned the Dutch Looper from his instructions. Not that I think there was anything Dutch about it. I think Ken invented that name himself for some unknown reason. Perhaps a Dutch magician showed it to him although I know it has been a pitch and fairground item even before the days of Ken Brooke.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » November 21st, 2016, 4:47 am

I am on a bit of a Dutch Looper kick at the moment and came across this old thread. I can't remember if I have posted this already but it won't hurt for you to see it again. I am doing the Dutch Looper trick about a minute in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3GSItQV6io

Now here is Patrick Page doing an excellent version. He uses a flap card which may or may not be an improvement. I don't think it is necessary although magicians would certainly like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vuco5nI88E

And here is Bob Sheets doing it too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvWN2ulMWPY

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Tom Frame » July 25th, 2017, 12:45 pm

After watching Pat Page’s terrific routine, I’ve been obsessing about the Dutch Looper. I’ve had no luck tracking down his routine and his gaffed card. Does anyone know where it can be purchased?
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 25th, 2017, 2:27 pm

You don't need to purchase his routine. Just watch the video and there it is in all its glory. Once you have the gimmicked card you can figure out the rest. Now of course the next step is the gimmicked card. Well it all depends on what kind of gimmicked card you want. There are two kinds. You can make both yourself. Pat used a flap card. It may or may not be the one described in this video. I haven't looked at it closely enough but I think this might be it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkqsVDCQ0CI

I don't like the flap card because as a pitchman I haven't got time to mess about making it as it takes too long. I use a simple fake card and can make around 14 Dutch Loopers in ten minutes. The kind of gimmick I make is something like the one in "The Unique Years" by Ken Brooke and the routine in there is the one I use for pitch purposes. I have sold and given away thousands upon thousands over the years. You can still do the Pat Page routine with them if you wish except for the last 30 seconds or so. His routine in the video can be done with the simple gimmick except for that last 30 seconds.

I recommend you don't do that crude move that Pat does which is a sort of double lift. He pulls down the card with his thumb. Completely unnecessary. All you need to do is move the gimmick card, pause, then move it again exactly as Ken Brooke describes (or perhaps Ganson describes on his behalf). Patrick does have a fancy move that I would have no idea how to describe. I saw him do it in person and sometimes I use it and sometimes I don't . I am not using it in the video of me doing it.

The way Pat and Bob Sheets do it can be done in a walk around situation. I need a table for the way I do it but of course I always have one anyway. The table does give you the advantage of a more open handling as you can show all the cards separately face down on the table.

I do have a DVD course on pitching that I hardly ever promote because I am far too lazy and far too rich anyway to bother. Ryan Matney purchased it and he can tell you all about it if he wishes. I have no idea if he found it useful or not. The Dutch Looper is described therein. I will exert myself to advertise it if necessary although I haven't the bloody energy to do so.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby erdnasephile » July 25th, 2017, 3:53 pm

Tom Frame wrote:After watching Pat Page’s terrific routine, I’ve been obsessing about the Dutch Looper. I’ve had no luck tracking down his routine and his gaffed card. Does anyone know where it can be purchased?


Hi, Mr. Frame:

Here's what I found: http://dennymagic.com/store/kitson-mira ... -page.html

or for video instruction: http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S12526

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 25th, 2017, 4:59 pm

performer wrote:I am on a bit of a Dutch Looper kick at the moment and came across this old thread. I can't remember if I have posted this already but it won't hurt for you to see it again. I am doing the Dutch Looper trick about a minute in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3GSItQV6io

Now here is Patrick Page doing an excellent version. He uses a flap card which may or may not be an improvement. I don't think it is necessary although magicians would certainly like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vuco5nI88E

And here is Bob Sheets doing it too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvWN2ulMWPY


Thoroughly enjoyed the Dutch Looper routine and everything else Performer did on that video. Very entertaining! And smooth. If I ever do the Jeremy the worm shtick, when it comes time to tell him to get back in the box, I would be tempted to say, "Don't be a Jack-in-the-box, get back in the box." But, the lines in that routine and everything else Performer does on there are fabulous - and equally, if not more importantly - the timing of the delivery of the lines... The people watching were really enjoying themselves, and that's what it's all about - except, of course, closing the sale with the punter...

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 25th, 2017, 6:39 pm

Yes. Closing the sale is the most important bit! Without that there is no point me being there! And yes. The main thing you learn as a grafter is the timing. Absolutely vital. You miss a second here or there and you can lose money. Every word has to be timed to the split second and you have to emphasise certain words more than others. The most important part of the demonstration where timing is concerned is when you "come to the bat" which is grafter's language for closing the sale. Here is an example of "coming to the bat" at 1.38.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxwujHN0w7s

And here is another example of "coming to the bat". Different grafter, different product--same timing and technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51YdZwBOrm8

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Tom Frame » July 25th, 2017, 6:54 pm

Thank you, erdnasephile!
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Q. Kumber » July 25th, 2017, 7:06 pm

The Pat Page version (along with many other tricks) is available from
http://patrickpagemagic.co.uk/product/t ... n-miracle/

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 25th, 2017, 8:00 pm

I actually purchased the Kitson Miracle from Pat when he came to Toronto to do a lecture. I have it somewhere. I seem to remember being vaguely disappointed with the instructions which weren't very clear. Or perhaps the print was too small or something. I wish I could remember what bothered me. I shall have to see if I can find it. I remember paying him $15 for it.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby erdnasephile » July 25th, 2017, 8:57 pm


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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 26th, 2017, 4:54 am

Dunno. I vaguely remember a written photographic description, possibly by Ganson, somewhere of an "English Monte" but I can't remember if it is the same as the Dutch Looper. It might even have been in one of those Supreme Magic teach-in booklets. I wish I could remember more. Mind you, I would be surprised if Jerry Mentzer marketed an effect which is already out there.

I must say that I am always highly amused that magicians pay up to $30 for this trick when I give it away in droves to the punters or at the very most sell it for a mere $3. I don't use the flap as it is quite unnecessary although it is a nice touch. The method without the flap is an old fairground and pitch item. I remember there was an old grafter in London named "Mossie" who made a living out of this item. I am not sure but I think he sold them on the street.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 26th, 2017, 4:47 pm

I believe "Dutch Looper" and "English Monte" are synonyms for essentially the same trick/routine. That said, as Performer points out, Patrick Page's version (Kitson Miracle) has an extra gaffed feature which is reputed to significantly enhance the effect, although it's darned good as originally conceived.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Edwin Corrie » July 27th, 2017, 2:50 am

I don't have it, but there seem to be some gaffed versions in Ganson's Teach-In on the Three Card Monte:

http://archive.denisbehr.de/show.php?book=979

There's also this, which mentions Jerry Mentzer's English Monte:

http://magicref.tripod.com/magref/magmonte.htm

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 27th, 2017, 5:40 am

Edwin Corrie wrote:I don't have it, but there seem to be some gaffed versions in Ganson's Teach-In on the Three Card Monte:

http://archive.denisbehr.de/show.php?book=979

There's also this, which mentions Jerry Mentzer's English Monte:

http://magicref.tripod.com/magref/magmonte.htm


Ah, this is now ringing a bell! At least partly so. The "street trader's three card monte" I think is the Dutch Looper. The Ron MacMillan thing may well be the flap version that Patrick Page used. Or perhaps Ron had a different type of flap. I was first introduced to the Dutch Looper by Ron MacMillan although he simply called it the three card trick. He made them up to sell along with the svengali deck which he introduced me too also. If there was no svengali deck there would have been no International Magic as that deck was the very basis of their business in the early days.

I suspect but don't know for sure that Ron was the originator of the flap since he was working with Dutch Loopers all the time and it would have been quite natural for him to have improved on it. He never taught me how to do the Dutch Looper--he just told me to sell it when I worked for him. However, I found a suitable explanation in "Tricks of the Television Stars" a small book that Harry Stanley put out. The description was later reprinted in the Unique Years by Ken Brooke.

I have sold thousands upon thousands of them and have always taken great delight that people have never been able to understand the instructions even though they are well written. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I thought I had given value for money. You have to be a grafter to understand why. Besides, by selling things that the punters can't work I am protecting the secrets of magic and should be highly commended for doing so.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 27th, 2017, 9:29 am

What do you think of the version you tap to protrude the gaff rather than fold over? Anyone finding that easy to manage (to reset) in performance?
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby erdnasephile » July 27th, 2017, 9:47 am

Edwin Corrie wrote:Just to get back to the Dutch Looper: another related monte routine was Gaetan Bloom's Visible Monte. Different method but a similar idea.


I bought this years ago--I remember Busby made the gimmick sound like a delicate swiss watch back in the day. The handling felt a bit awkward to me and I never performed it.

Anyone out there have success performing this routine?

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Matthew Field » July 27th, 2017, 10:52 am

Patrick Page's "Kitson Miracle" is a fabulous version of the Monte trick. You can show the fronts and backs of all three cards. I pleaded with him to include it in "Magic Page by Page", which I edited, but to no avail. The trick is marketed by Patrick Page Magic, based in England, as noted above, and in the U.S. by Magic Inc. in Chicago, which is where I bought it 25 or 30 years ago. It is very clever, much more sophisticated than the Dutch Looper flap card. It would be difficult to make it yourself. You do need to read the (supplied) routine to understand the handling of the gimmick.

Busby did put out Gaeten Bloom's Visible Monte, which is (IMHO) a wonderfully clever eye popper, where the "money card" visually vanishes as the three cards are dropped to the table. I never found anything awkward about it, although did have to know how to handle the gimmick to keep from damaging it.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby erdnasephile » July 27th, 2017, 10:57 am

Thanks, Mr. Field--I had been wondering why the routine wasn't in the big book.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Chris Aguilar » July 27th, 2017, 11:21 am

Steve Valentine's "3" uses a modified (non flap) dutch looper and is excellent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_45XUPu9pew

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Bob Farmer » July 27th, 2017, 12:07 pm

The Bloom Monte is a wonderful method. I created a lot of material with it, which, for the most part, remains unpublished.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 27th, 2017, 12:51 pm

Pat Page's routine is amazing. I could neither follow the method nor reconstruct it! I recommend buying it from his website.
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 27th, 2017, 1:49 pm

Bob Farmer wrote:The Bloom Monte is a wonderful method. I created a lot of material with it, which, for the most part, remains unpublished.

Maybe someday for the material. Did you find a handling that lets you set/reset the thing in performance?
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 27th, 2017, 3:25 pm

Matthew Field wrote:Patrick Page's "Kitson Miracle" is a fabulous version of the Monte trick. You can show the fronts and backs of all three cards. I pleaded with him to include it in "Magic Page by Page", which I edited, but to no avail. The trick is marketed by Patrick Page Magic, based in England, as noted above, and in the U.S. by Magic Inc. in Chicago, which is where I bought it 25 or 30 years ago. It is very clever, much more sophisticated than the Dutch Looper flap card. It would be difficult to make it yourself. You do need to read the (supplied) routine to understand the handling of the gimmick.

Busby did put out Gaeten Bloom's Visible Monte, which is (IMHO) a wonderfully clever eye popper, where the "money card" visually vanishes as the three cards are dropped to the table. I never found anything awkward about it, although did have to know how to handle the gimmick to keep from damaging it.

Matt Field


I am sure Mr Field will not mind if I correct him on a few points. After all, I am the expert on this subject having sold more Dutch Loopers than anyone in history. First I am looking at the Pat Page thing as we speak. It is NOT difficult to make it yourself! All you need is some scissors and a bit of Scotch tape. It is more complicated than the original Dutch Looper and you would not be able to make 14 in 10 minutes like I can. However, you could probably make one in 10 minutes. Or maybe 15 minutes. I have the instructions in front of me but the print is so small I cannot read them. Once I get hold of a magnifying glass which I have somewhere I will report on whether the instructions are clear or not. I seem to remember that I couldn't make head or tail of them. However, I will pay more attention once I get the magnifying glass. I can certainly work out the routine by watching the video but then that is because I am so used to doing the trick for so long.

Second, it is NOT more sophisticated than "the Dutch Looper Flap Card"!. That is because there is NO flap card with the Dutch Looper! None whatsoever. Furthermore there is no particular advantage in showing the backs and fronts of the cards even though magicians think there is. The fact of the matter is that the people THINK they have seen both sides of the cards anyway so what bloody difference does it make? They DO see the backs of the cards and they think they see the fronts and that is all that matters. In fact Pat only uses the flap thing for the last 30 seconds of the routine. Magicians would like the fact that both and the backs can be seen but laymen won't give a toss. And you can't give them out to be examined anyway.

I can do Pat's entire routine with the regular Looper except for the last 30 seconds which needs the silly flap thing. However, there are certain features I don't like about it. That awful way he pulls the card down with his thumb and the cramped unnatural way he holds the three cards. However, that is a technical thing and can easily be corrected as it is not essential to hold them like that. He once showed me how to do the visible changes and I sometimes incorporate them into my demonstration. However, most of the time I don't bother since it takes too bloody long and time is of the essence when I am working. If I have time and the audience is responsive I certainly do them as they are effective.

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Brad Jeffers
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Joined: April 11th, 2008, 5:52 pm
Location: Savannah, GA

Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Brad Jeffers » July 27th, 2017, 3:46 pm

performer wrote: I am looking at the Pat Page thing as we speak. It is NOT difficult to make it yourself! All you need is some scissors and a bit of Scotch tape.
I have one of these made by Neil Lester.
The way he made them definitely required more than some scissors and a bit of Scotch tape!

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erdnasephile
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Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby erdnasephile » July 27th, 2017, 5:56 pm

Mr. Jeffers: is the gaff that you have something that could be made by yourself relatively easily?


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