Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

A place where beginners can participate, ask questions, and post their views. However, beginners typically ask a lot of questions about sources, tricks, books, and so on. In fact, all magicians are interested (or should be) in the provenance of tricks, ideas, and related matters. This department will service these needs.
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Bob Farmer » July 27th, 2017, 6:26 pm

Jonathan: My ideas go way beyond a simple monte. I also make the gaff so it moves end to end rather than side to side: this makes for more deceptive handlings. I'm not sure what you mean by resetting, since the gaff resets itself: there is no need to do anything. I'd publish all this material but:

1. Printing and postage would make the price ridiculous.

2. A pdf is possible, but then it would just get ripped off and passed around for free.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 27th, 2017, 6:29 pm

I just made one. It took me ten minutes. I was wrong about the Scotch tape though. That was another way of making the flap I have seen in the past. Pat's version does not use Scotch tape after all. I used a glue stick and a pair of scissors. It is a very delicate business and I am quite sure that both the one I made and the one supplied by Pat would eventually come apart with repeated use and of course you would have to make it all over again. If you are careful with it then it should last a few weeks. The original Dutch Looper without the flap can last several years.

I have now read the instructions. They are OK but what I found confusing in the past is that it doesn't seem as if it describing the actual routine but just the moves. However, I only looked at it cursorily but it didn't seem as if it really gave the proper routine he used. Or if it did it wasn't well described. Still, I will take another look at it.

Virtually everything you can do with the flap you can do with the original and more secure fake which will not fall off. All except for the one move at the end where you show the faces and the backs. I don't think it is worth the hassle but I will test it out on laymen before I finally make up my mind.

It is certainly not one I could sell to the punters. Within two minutes of purchasing it the kids would rip the flap off and come back complaining to me that the trick doesn't work. Mind you, they do that anyway with the one I sell. I just snarl at them and growl "read the instructions" and scare them away. Sometimes I vary the procedure and snarl, "Have you ever heard of Criss Angel?" They say, "yes" I then snarl "Do you know how he got on television?" They say "No". I then snarl, "HE READ THE INSTRUCTIONS". That usually frightens them off never to be seen again. I have never gone to a seminar on developing good customer relations I am afraid..................

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 27th, 2017, 8:01 pm

Good God! I have just found a VHS video by Patrick Page devoted entirely to this trick! I didn't even know I had it. I shall now have to watch it and save me wading through his instructions!

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 27th, 2017, 8:09 pm

Hi Bob,

That item as needing an angular tap to reset, since something needs to get into place for show/tell. How did you make the item reset? The gaff was also a bit fragile to mishandling when fanning the card since...

Curious in NY ,

JonT
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby erdnasephile » July 28th, 2017, 6:46 am

erdnasephile wrote:Mr. Jeffers: is the gaff that you have something that could be made by yourself relatively easily?


I'll answer my own question--Nope--unless you have some intermediate card gaffing skills.

(I realized that I actually had this sitting on my shelf the whole time--ugh--getting old.)

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 28th, 2017, 8:09 am

erdnasephile wrote:
erdnasephile wrote:Mr. Jeffers: is the gaff that you have something that could be made by yourself relatively easily?


I'll answer my own question--Nope--unless you have some intermediate card gaffing skills.

(I realized that I actually had this sitting on my shelf the whole time--ugh--getting old.)


If you can't make it yourself you had better purchase half a dozen of them. The flap won't last.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby erdnasephile » July 28th, 2017, 12:02 pm

performer wrote:
erdnasephile wrote:
erdnasephile wrote:Mr. Jeffers: is the gaff that you have something that could be made by yourself relatively easily?


I'll answer my own question--Nope--unless you have some intermediate card gaffing skills.

(I realized that I actually had this sitting on my shelf the whole time--ugh--getting old.)


If you can't make it yourself you had better purchase half a dozen of them. The flap won't last.


Yes--it does seem like the rubber dam would give way eventually.

I think that's why I like the gaff Steve Valentine has.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby erdnasephile » July 28th, 2017, 1:24 pm

For reference:




Great routine: has a true ending and ends clean.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 28th, 2017, 2:55 pm

Yes. I watched that video the other day. The trouble is that I don't trust it. It reminds me of videos performers put out to promote themselves. A few seconds here and a few seconds there. You can't tell a thing from that kind of video. I would far prefer to see the routine performed in its entirety.

Furthermore--and I admit that I may well be wrong----I have a suspicion the gaff is just the usual Dutch Looper gaff. The type that I can make 14 out of in ten minutes. Oddly enough I do recognise the top of the pocket change which I use myself in Out of This World. I learned it from a classic book on card tricks written by Paul Clive (who ironically knew very little about card tricks and hardly ever did any) called "Card Tricks Without Skill"

It garnered great amusement and I might as well give it to you all as a gift. I have been in touch with Paul (whom I knew personally) in the spirit world and he gave me permission to give it away. You secrete a joker in your top pocket before you start. When you do the Out of this World thing you simply tell the spectator to give you one card he is not sure of. You place this card in your top pocket and switch it for the joker which is now protruding. After finishing Out of This World while they are all gasping you off handedly remark, "Oh, you remember the one you weren't sure of? That is the Joker!"

It gets a great reaction although oddly enough even though this book was published quite sensibly before 1954 (1946 to be exact) I have never seen a single soul apart from myself use this stunt. They should.

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Re: RE: Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Chris Aguilar » July 28th, 2017, 3:19 pm

erdnasephile wrote:For reference:




Great routine: has a true ending and ends clean.
Saw Valentine perform this at a convention a few years back and it's great.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby erdnasephile » July 29th, 2017, 12:20 am

performer wrote:...Furthermore--and I admit that I may well be wrong----I have a suspicion the gaff is just the usual Dutch Looper gaff. The type that I can make 14 out of in ten minutes. Oddly enough I do recognise the top of the pocket change which I use myself in Out of This World. I learned it from a classic book on card tricks written by Paul Clive (who ironically knew very little about card tricks and hardly ever did any) called "Card Tricks Without Skill"

It garnered great amusement and I might as well give it to you all as a gift. I have been in touch with Paul (whom I knew personally) in the spirit world and he gave me permission to give it away. You secrete a joker in your top pocket before you start. When you do the Out of this World thing you simply tell the spectator to give you one card he is not sure of. You place this card in your top pocket and switch it for the joker which is now protruding. After finishing Out of This World while they are all gasping you off handedly remark, "Oh, you remember the one you weren't sure of? That is the Joker!"

It gets a great reaction although oddly enough even though this book was published quite sensibly before 1954 (1946 to be exact) I have never seen a single soul apart from myself use this stunt. They should.


Steve Valentine's gaff actually differs in a couple clever ways from the typical Dutch Looper gaff. It's well worth the investment, IMHO.

Paul Curry attributed the idea of the OOTW Joker finish to Milbourne Christopher ("Paul Curry Presents", pg 96), and it was originally published in the September, 1942 issue of Genii (Stephen Minch is the source of this citation). Mr. Christopher also mentioned that Phil Thomas and Hen Fetsch had a hand in it's creation. However, Mr. Christopher used an entirely different method than the one cited by Mr. Lewis' for accomplishing the Joker embellishment.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 29th, 2017, 6:42 am

What was the Milbourne Christopher method?

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 29th, 2017, 1:19 pm

erdnasephile wrote:...

Steve Valentine's gaff actually differs in a couple clever ways from the typical Dutch Looper gaff. It's well worth the investment, IMHO.


Does Steve connect his routine to the Joe Riding "Three Card Trick with Four Cards" item? Figure folks who've been performing a while would want to connect the dots on the monte routine ;)
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Q. Kumber » July 30th, 2017, 8:50 am

At the recent Peterborough Day of Magic (where I was lecturing) I bought two boxes containing 100 old issues of GENII, including the September 1942 issue mentioned above. Here's the relevant discussion on OOTW, and I've added an interesting anecdote from the same issue that has nothing to do with the current topic.

Incidentally, Joe Riding's Three Card Trick With Four Cards does not use any fake cards.

And I highly recommend subscribers looking through back issues of GENII as there are gems to be found.


TIPS-ON-TRiCKS by Milbourne Christopher

We sat around my kitchen table, Phil Thomas, Henry Fetsch and I, and we tinkered with Paul Curry’s “Out of This World.” Mr. Curry’s trick is a fine one, and those who have purchased it will appreciate the following tips: First, at the finish, turn the normal packs over in the Curry way. Turn the other red, black packs in this way.
Point to the red indicator card at the top. Pick up the face down cards with your right hand, fingers underneath, thumb on top. Turn them face up, then start spreading them from the bottom from the red indicator card down. They will be red down to the face down, black card, and black from there on. Try this with the cards in your hands.
Fetsch tried it and in his fervor spilled half the cards. “Tsch, tsch,” said Thomas, and our discussion went on. Instead of counting we decided it would be better to have one marked card. This would save the bother of counting, and, as Fetsch put it, “If you’re using a set-up why not take advantage of everything?”
Oh, yes, the joker bit. Have the joker a known number down. When the spectator reaches it, say, “Are you sure it’s red-—or black?” (whichever pack he deals it into). Invariably he will say, “I ’m not sure.” At least Phil did when we used him as guinea pig. Afterwards turn it over— it’s the Joker. “No wonder you weren’t sure!”

Odd Magical Facts by Frank Fewins

While in San Francisco, California, the early part of this year, Chester Morris called on Bob Stull at his magic emporium, and in the course of his chat with him told of a visit he had had with Jim Sherman at the latter’s magic studio in Chicago, Illinois.
Jim, Chester related, told of receiving an order for $65.00 worth of magic apparatus from a lad in Honolulu,the order arriving just after Jim had made arrangements at the steamship office for a vacation trip to Honolulu.
As he was headed for the faraway home of his new customer, Jim decided to make the delivery in person, so on his arrival in Honolulu, Jim telephoned the lad, told him who he was, and, as a gag, stated that he had made the trip to Honolulu especially to deliver the goods he had ordered, since the policy of his firm, Jim said, was to make prompt deliveries in person on all order of $65.00, or more.
The boy, elated on hearing his magic had arrived sooner than he had expected and greatly pleased at the opportunity of meeting the head of the firm with which he had corresponded, persuaded his folks to invite Jim for dinner. Jim said his visit to the lad’s home was a most pleasant one, and his stay in Honolulu made more interesting and enjoyable through the continued hospitality of these newly-acquired friends.
After Chester finished relating the above story to Bob, a youngster who had been looking over the things in the showcases walked over to them and remarked, “Say, I ’m that young lad from Honolulu you were just talking about.”
The lad is John Wolf, who was among the first evacuees brought out of Honolulu after the Pearl Harbor attack. John is now living in San Francisco and is attending school there.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby erdnasephile » July 30th, 2017, 1:49 pm

The two paragraphs at the end of the article from Genii seem transposed as originally published. It would seem to make more sense like this:

We sat around my kitchen table, Phil Thomas, Henry Fetsch and I, and we tinkered with Paul Curry’s “Out of This World.” Mr. Curry’s trick is a fine one, and those who have purchased it will appreciate the following tips: First, at the finish, turn the normal packs over in the Curry way. Turn the other red, black packs in this way.

Point to the red indicator card at the top. Pick up the face down cards with your right hand, fingers underneath, thumb on top. Turn them face up, then start spreading them from the bottom from the red indicator card down. They will be red down to the face down, black card, and black from there on. Try this with the cards in your hands.

Oh, yes, the joker bit. Have the joker a known number down. When the spectator reaches it, say, “Are you sure it’s red-—or black?” (whichever pack he deals it into). Invariably he will say, “I ’m not sure.” At least Phil did when we used him as guinea pig. Afterwards turn it over— it’s the Joker. “No wonder you weren’t sure!”

Fetsch tried it and in his fervor spilled half the cards. “Tsch, tsch,” said Thomas, and our discussion went on. Instead of counting we decided it would be better to have one marked card. This would save the bother of counting, and, as Fetsch put it, “If you’re using a set-up why not take advantage of everything?”

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Leonard Hevia » July 30th, 2017, 6:51 pm

No mention of Bob Sheets' Killer Kitson Miracle, his walk around version of this effect.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Q. Kumber » July 30th, 2017, 7:38 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:No mention of Bob Sheets' Killer Kitson Miracle, his walk around version of this effect.


Bob released this without realising it was a Patrick Page trick. After he found out he called to see Pat and made a handsome donation to his retirement fund. Pat responded, "Is there anything else of mine you'd like to nick?" Bob Sheets is a very honourable man.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 30th, 2017, 8:16 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:No mention of Bob Sheets' Killer Kitson Miracle, his walk around version of this effect.


Not only did I mention it I posted a video of it.
Out of the three versions, that is the Valentine version, the Page Version and the Sheets version I like the Patrick Page version the best.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 30th, 2017, 8:28 pm

Q. Kumber wrote:At the recent Peterborough Day of Magic (where I was lecturing) I bought two boxes containing 100 old issues of GENII, including the September 1942 issue mentioned above. Here's the relevant discussion on OOTW, and I've added an interesting anecdote from the same issue that has nothing to do with the current topic.

Incidentally, Joe Riding's Three Card Trick With Four Cards does not use any fake cards.

And I highly recommend subscribers looking through back issues of GENII as there are gems to be found.


TIPS-ON-TRiCKS by Milbourne Christopher

We sat around my kitchen table, Phil Thomas, Henry Fetsch and I, and we tinkered with Paul Curry’s “Out of This World.” Mr. Curry’s trick is a fine one, and those who have purchased it will appreciate the following tips: First, at the finish, turn the normal packs over in the Curry way. Turn the other red, black packs in this way.
Point to the red indicator card at the top. Pick up the face down cards with your right hand, fingers underneath, thumb on top. Turn them face up, then start spreading them from the bottom from the red indicator card down. They will be red down to the face down, black card, and black from there on. Try this with the cards in your hands.
Fetsch tried it and in his fervor spilled half the cards. “Tsch, tsch,” said Thomas, and our discussion went on. Instead of counting we decided it would be better to have one marked card. This would save the bother of counting, and, as Fetsch put it, “If you’re using a set-up why not take advantage of everything?”
Oh, yes, the joker bit. Have the joker a known number down. When the spectator reaches it, say, “Are you sure it’s red-—or black?” (whichever pack he deals it into). Invariably he will say, “I ’m not sure.” At least Phil did when we used him as guinea pig. Afterwards turn it over— it’s the Joker. “No wonder you weren’t sure!”

Odd Magical Facts by Frank Fewins

While in San Francisco, California, the early part of this year, Chester Morris called on Bob Stull at his magic emporium, and in the course of his chat with him told of a visit he had had with Jim Sherman at the latter’s magic studio in Chicago, Illinois.
Jim, Chester related, told of receiving an order for $65.00 worth of magic apparatus from a lad in Honolulu,the order arriving just after Jim had made arrangements at the steamship office for a vacation trip to Honolulu.
As he was headed for the faraway home of his new customer, Jim decided to make the delivery in person, so on his arrival in Honolulu, Jim telephoned the lad, told him who he was, and, as a gag, stated that he had made the trip to Honolulu especially to deliver the goods he had ordered, since the policy of his firm, Jim said, was to make prompt deliveries in person on all order of $65.00, or more.
The boy, elated on hearing his magic had arrived sooner than he had expected and greatly pleased at the opportunity of meeting the head of the firm with which he had corresponded, persuaded his folks to invite Jim for dinner. Jim said his visit to the lad’s home was a most pleasant one, and his stay in Honolulu made more interesting and enjoyable through the continued hospitality of these newly-acquired friends.
After Chester finished relating the above story to Bob, a youngster who had been looking over the things in the showcases walked over to them and remarked, “Say, I ’m that young lad from Honolulu you were just talking about.”
The lad is John Wolf, who was among the first evacuees brought out of Honolulu after the Pearl Harbor attack. John is now living in San Francisco and is attending school there.


I really don't like the Milbourne Christopher version now that I have read it. I have no idea where Paul Clive got his version from but it is far superior. Who the hell wants to be watching out for a dotted card? I used to do it that way too and ironically I learned it from the Paul Clive book! However, I realised how daft it was and gave it up for a far superior method. Although it is not explained properly in the above description I am assuming the joker is the dotted card. And if it isn't then the method is even dafter.

I honestly think I have the best version of Out of this World. I have added all sorts of little refinements to the trick over the years, none of which are original, but all of them combined have made the trick a bloody miracle when I do it. I have heard people talk about it for
years afterwards.

However, I am more intrigued by the "John Wolf" story. I strongly suspect his name was John Wolfe with an "e" on the end. I also strongly suspect that he wrote one of the greatest books I have ever read on salesmanship. I have owned the book for about 50 years. Now of course it may not be the same John Wolfe but I suspect it was because of the references to both Honolulu and Magic throughout the book. I think he lived there so I presume he went back after the war was over.

Anyway, here is the book. It is a great one for anyone whose work involves salesmanship.

https://www.amazon.com/Sell-Like-Ace-Li ... 0138042039

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 30th, 2017, 9:07 pm

Q. Kumber wrote:...Incidentally, Joe Riding's Three Card Trick With Four Cards does not use any fake cards.
...


Getting a feeling folks keep their monte routines distinct - index/flap....
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 30th, 2017, 9:17 pm

I will tell you the best monte routine of them all. It has nothing to do with the Dutch Looper though and it does use gimmicked cards. Hardly anyone has seen this and I never see it mentioned. I saw it well over 50 years ago. It was called "Tje Scarlett Pimpernel" or something. It was quite an extravaganza of a routine by Jon Tremaine. He has never published it or described it as far as I am aware although I suppose I may be wrong. There is a tiny part of it described in one of his books for beginners but it is only a tiny fraction of the routine.

Jon must be in his early eighties now I imagine. It may well be time for him to put it out on the market and make some money out of it. I have always known that magicians will buy just about anything.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Jackpot » July 31st, 2017, 12:14 am

A "Scarlett Pimpernel" routine and the gaffed card is described in "Three Card Monte as Entertainment" by Ganson
Not the one who created the Potter Index.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 31st, 2017, 1:40 am

I appreciate Performer sharing Clive's gag/surprise kicker to OOTW with the joker. It sounds really good and I am going to use it.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 31st, 2017, 4:01 am

Jackpot wrote:A "Scarlett Pimpernel" routine and the gaffed card is described in "Three Card Monte as Entertainment" by Ganson


I vaguely remember seeing this but I doubt very much it is the Tremaine routine. It is a very involved routine with many phases. I remember it using at least one double faced card.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 31st, 2017, 4:05 am

MagicbyAlfred wrote:I appreciate Performer sharing Clive's gag/surprise kicker to OOTW with the joker. It sounds really good and I am going to use it.


It IS really good! You won't regret it.

I have all sorts of other simple embellishments but I am getting a vibe that for now I had better keep them to myself as I know they will not be appreciated.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 31st, 2017, 8:35 am

Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 31st, 2017, 9:41 am

No. Not that one. And I think I have the title wrong. It is in fact "The Pimpernel Queen". Or at least that is the title attributed to it in Jon's excellent begnner's book on card magic, "The Amazing Book of Card Tricks" on page 52. Alas it is only a tiny fraction of the routine I saw him do several times when I was 16 years old. It is the best monte version I have ever seen. I used to watch Jon when I was 16 years old when he was working in Ellisdons famous joke and novelty store in Holborn, London. I would go up there in my school Lunch hour and travel half across London to get there. He seemed to spend more time there demonstrating his own tricks than he ever did of the ones he was supposed to be selling. He had a good one called "Voodoo Spirit" which I still do to this day. And I watched him very carefully several times before I learned his version of the Ramsey Bean trick which he later explained in a lecture and in fact the trick is now in one of his beginner's books. Here I am doing it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQIhl8GbG0k

It is a great trick but I wouldn't do it at the dinner table!

However, I always thought his greatest trick was the "Pimpernel Queen". Perhaps one day we will see the full routine rather than that small excerpt in his card trick book.

Incidentally I would never do the Dutch Looper in a performance for the public. I only do it to remove money from the pockets of the undeserving public on the basis that their money is far better off in my pocket than it is in theirs. Instead the version I use for performance is the Vernon 3 card monte which always goes over very well. And I rather like using ungimmicked cards.

Incidentally the very worst thing that Jon ever did to me was tell me where to find the magic community. You can blame my presence among you on him. Up to that time I had never really met another magician except him and I had already been doing magic seriously for two years and by then was pretty good at it. I had learned it all from BOOKS! And books are always the best way to learn. Even better than learning from human beings for reasons I have no time to explain.

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby erdnasephile » July 31st, 2017, 1:46 pm

performer wrote:Incidentally I would never do the Dutch Looper in a performance for the public.


This is an interesting statement to me. May I please respectfully ask for your thinking behind this?

Is it due to the use of a gaffed card? If so, one could construct the routine to finish clean (e.g., Valentine) and/or use spectator management (e.g., Skinner, Rogers) to take the heat off the cards.

Or is the concern that some Dutch Looper routines seem to get pretty repetitive and lack a true climax? At first glance, I tend to like routines that build gradually to an impossible climax (DeCamps, Vernon, Kohler, Skinner, Ortiz, Lewis), as opposed to those where 3 identical cards are revealed matter of factly during the routine (with the exception of Valentine's routine)

Thanks!

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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 31st, 2017, 2:50 pm

erdnasephile wrote:
performer wrote:Incidentally I would never do the Dutch Looper in a performance for the public.


This is an interesting statement to me. May I please respectfully ask for your thinking behind this?
...


What do you think of Alex Elmsley's Four Card Trick?
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 31st, 2017, 2:58 pm

erdnasephile wrote:
performer wrote:Incidentally I would never do the Dutch Looper in a performance for the public.


This is an interesting statement to me. May I please respectfully ask for your thinking behind this?

Is it due to the use of a gaffed card? If so, one could construct the routine to finish clean (e.g., Valentine) and/or use spectator management (e.g., Skinner, Rogers) to take the heat off the cards.

Or is the concern that some Dutch Looper routines seem to get pretty repetitive and lack a true climax? At first glance, I tend to like routines that build gradually to an impossible climax (DeCamps, Vernon, Kohler, Skinner, Ortiz, Lewis), as opposed to those where 3 identical cards are revealed matter of factly during the routine (with the exception of Valentine's routine)

Thanks!


Oh, the answer to this is very simple. When you do a trick a thousand times a day (an exaggeration of course but it certainly feels like it) you never want to see the bloody thing again. I thought when I did trade shows I would finally be able to escape the svengali deck but to my utter horror it is ideal for trade show situations particularly for incorporating company information. And of course the Dutch Looper is a famous trade show giveaway that trade show magicians use. Not me yet thanks be to the Gods.

There are tricks for selling purposes and tricks for entertainment purposes. I prefer to keep them in their own categories although sometimes I am forced not to for business reasons. But why would I want to perform tricks that I expose to the public all the time?

And yes. I do prefer to use regular cards anyway. I have nothing against gimmicked cards and I do MacDonalds Aces all the time. I just find regular cards a hell of a lot more convenient. Besides I love the Vernon version of the 3 card monte and I have been doing it for decades and it works very well.

Still, I have no objection to other performers using the Dutch Looper and the variations thereof which might suit them for walk around when there is no table. It is none of my business what they do.

I do think you have to be careful with some of the Dutch Looper/Kitson Miracles variations. They remind me of the cups and balls. Your eyes are liable to glaze over with too much confusion when there is too much happening and too many phases.

performer
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » July 31st, 2017, 2:59 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
erdnasephile wrote:
performer wrote:Incidentally I would never do the Dutch Looper in a performance for the public.


This is an interesting statement to me. May I please respectfully ask for your thinking behind this?
...


What do you think of Alex Elmsley's Four Card Trick?


I have no idea. I have never seen it.

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 31st, 2017, 6:18 pm

Another nice thing that occurred to me about the joker gag is the fact that in recent years Bicycle decks have included a joker that has both colors on it (well, I guess black isn't technically a color, nor is it in technicolor). Same with TallyHo. Could also maybe say to the spectator, after you reveal the joker, "I see you played a bit of a joke on me."

performer
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » August 1st, 2017, 3:38 pm

performer wrote:
Q. Kumber wrote:
While in San Francisco, California, the early part of this year, Chester Morris called on Bob Stull at his magic emporium, and in the course of his chat with him told of a visit he had had with Jim Sherman at the latter’s magic studio in Chicago, Illinois.
Jim, Chester related, told of receiving an order for $65.00 worth of magic apparatus from a lad in Honolulu,the order arriving just after Jim had made arrangements at the steamship office for a vacation trip to Honolulu.
As he was headed for the faraway home of his new customer, Jim decided to make the delivery in person, so on his arrival in Honolulu, Jim telephoned the lad, told him who he was, and, as a gag, stated that he had made the trip to Honolulu especially to deliver the goods he had ordered, since the policy of his firm, Jim said, was to make prompt deliveries in person on all order of $65.00, or more.
The boy, elated on hearing his magic had arrived sooner than he had expected and greatly pleased at the opportunity of meeting the head of the firm with which he had corresponded, persuaded his folks to invite Jim for dinner. Jim said his visit to the lad’s home was a most pleasant one, and his stay in Honolulu made more interesting and enjoyable through the continued hospitality of these newly-acquired friends.
After Chester finished relating the above story to Bob, a youngster who had been looking over the things in the showcases walked over to them and remarked, “Say, I ’m that young lad from Honolulu you were just talking about.”
The lad is John Wolf, who was among the first evacuees brought out of Honolulu after the Pearl Harbor at.




However, I am more intrigued by the "John Wolf" story. I strongly suspect his name was John Wolfe with an "e" on the end. I also strongly suspect that he wrote one of the greatest books I have ever read on salesmanship. I have owned the book for about 50 years. Now of course it may not be the same John Wolfe but I suspect it was because of the references to both Honolulu and Magic throughout the book. I think he lived there so I presume he went back after the war was over.

Anyway, here is the book. It is a great one for anyone whose work involves salesmanship.

https://www.amazon.com/Sell-Like-Ace-Li ... 0138042039


I am now convinced that the "boy" in the story grew up to be a man and became a top sales trainer and his name was John M Wolfe. He wrote "How to sell like an ace and live like a king" which is an incredibly good book on salesmanship. Since everyone is involved in selling something I would recommend the book as it has hundreds of tips on selling therein. In fact my rather famous theory of "dropped details" originates within this book but applied to salesmanship rather than magic.

But on the back cover there is a blurb which convinces me this is the same John Wolfe. This is partly what it said:

"Born and raised in Honolulu, he worked his way through Dartmouth College doing magic shows at exclusive New England resorts. Returning home he began his business career selling radio time, rose to sales manager spot at a music firm then was partner in a local advertising agency"

The above convinces me this is the same "John Wolf" mentioned in the story. In addition there are occasional references to magic throughout the book which has a playing card theme throughout the book. There is even mention of svengali pitchmen at one point!

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 2nd, 2017, 1:53 pm

Maybe it's just me (and I do know that it is, because I have met myself), but personally, I just don't like gimmicked cards. I can't deal with the stress of getting caught, and the fact that they are not examinable. Sure, the majority of the time they might not ask to see the cards, but trust, me if you work a bar regularly, they will. I love the classic 3 card monte, and you are clean at the end. When no table is available I do the Color Monte - a cool story, and it invariably gets a wonderful reaction. No, they are not regular cards, but that doesn't matter because you are clean as a whistle at the end. I know other magicians may disagree and swear by tricks such as Skinner Ultimate Monte etc. and that's great if it works out. Me, I swear at them (the cards, not the magicians).

Smurf
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Smurf » August 2nd, 2017, 4:07 pm

MagicbyAlfred: "I can't deal with the stress of getting caught, and the fact that they are not examinable."

In Bob Sheets' Killer Kitson Miracle DVD instructions, he says he tells people at the beginning of the demo that he's using mechanical trick cards. He tells them he's cheating. However, even with those admissions the spectator has no idea how the transformations are occurring and the effect is still magical.

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 2nd, 2017, 4:21 pm

Smurf, I see what you are saying. Still, it is just my own preference. BTW, Bob Sheets is obviously an excellent magician, but I saw the video of him performing the routine to which you referred, and I cringed at the line where he tells them they are trick and/or mechanical cards. This is something I personally would never say. I think it somewhat begs the question that they had no idea how he did it, because they are still now walking away thinking "trick cards" and maybe if they had those cards they could do it too. IMHO, this diminishes the magicaliTy of the performance and discounts the skill of the performer... But as Harry Lorayne is fond of saying, "To each his own."

Bibliophage
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby Bibliophage » August 4th, 2017, 9:25 pm

Did they make a DVD "version" of the original Pat Page VHS tape?

performer
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Re: Dutch Looper / English Monte / English Three Card Trick

Postby performer » August 4th, 2017, 10:50 pm

Oddly enough I also tell people that I am using a trick deck I purchased from a magic shop when I perform the svengali deck at a trade show or other entertainment event. I sort of feel that I have to since the deck is so well known and even if they aren't when they see a deck all made up of the same card it may occur to them anyway and in fact it probably does! I do have a way of switching the deck out for a regular deck and STILL make them change to identical cards! However, I never bother as half the time I don't have the energy and it isn't necessary anyway. In a formal show it doesn't make the blindest bit of difference anyway whether I tell them it is a trick deck or not.

Incidentally when I do the ALL Backs routine from Vernon I also tell the people that I am using a trick deck that I purchased from a magic shop. However in this example and the svengali deck example I think the procedure is justified and in fact very effective.

However, I do agree with Alfred. I would NEVER do it with the Dutch Looper in a performance situation. I think that is a very daft thing to do.


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