The time Machine

[C. Hampton]

Angelo, I liked your idea for the time machine.

I was thinking something similar. I am planning to do the clock trick with cards, and then the time machine as a follow up.
In any case I totally go for taking any importance to the watch itself, for that I think that some type of prediction effects before the time machine will be very appropiate and as a kicker ending throw in the time machine. :)

[Guest]

I may have seen a bad one, but comparing WATCH & WEAR with TIME MACHINE. I actually like WATCH & WEAR much better. TIME MACHINE, it seems you have to tilt it at an unnatural angle (45 degrees?), and if it wasn't then COMPLETELY parallel to the floor, it wouldn't stop! Another thing I couldn't make work, when looking at TIME MACHINE, but that works fine with WATCH & WEAR, is that I can do the effect without removing my watch from my wrist! This is nice! You just wear the watch with the face on the inside of the wrist. Ala Harry Lorayne. You don't have to ALWAYS wear it like this. Just when you go into the effect, and because you "don't want them to see what time is set".
As far as looks go, I think they're about the same. To me the only difference is the band, and I prefer the black band anyway.
Michael S: DO NOT buy the Collector's Workshop watch! In the original handling you had to have a "secret something", underneath your close up pad. And it wasn't flat, either. Difficult to hide. They later came out with an improvement, where the secret something was hidden in a pen cap, which had to be place directly against the watch. This was good. But overall, you had to be VERY careful when it came to handling the watch. These new models are more durable.
So now those who are on the fence as to which one to get will now be stuck more, because someone finally spoke up for WATCH & WEAR! Really though, its a wonderful EFFECT. I mean think about it!
David Regal, as would be expected, offers some wonderful tips in the way of presentation. I have two small thoughts. One, you should WRITE OUT a script, that is modular. Meaning, you can STOP at anytime, and reveal the watch. But this way, it all makes sense. You often see someone performing this effect and babbling away as they keep glancing at the watch, and don't have anything really interesting to say. It becomes obvious. So, say something that really is compelling. And you can stop the watch, but continue on your script, BEFORE revealing the time! This is a good touch. Or...Two, You let THEM talk.
Or if you work for larger crowds, you can use a borrowed watch, and a sticker that says "The same thing!" on it!

[Guest]

Carlos, Good idea! You can even apparently set the watch first, then go into the clock effect, asking for a SPECIFIC time, not just the hour. The clock trick reveals the hour, that effect ends, then you draw attention back to the watch, and show that it is the EXACT time. This may overload your spectator's senses, so be careful!

[Guest]

David, you may want to try going about it the opposite way. That is to say, don't try to predict/divine the time that the participant is choosing, but try to send the time you're thinking of to her. You use the watch as a convenient means to verify the time you're sending (could also write it on a piece of paper with a Swami; there are arguments for both methods as being superior :o )

This way, the heat is not on you or the watch, but on the participant; if it's slightly off, it's still very impressive, and it's not your failure (it's also not their failure, I feel obliged to stress; you're walking a delicate line in suggesting that they didn't receive it, but that it wasn't really a failure).

--A

[David Regal]

Andy, I'm sure you could make an effective presentation using your suggestion. However, I've done the effect a few more times, and I now have a tack I enjoy...but you're going to think I'm nuts.

I ask the spectator to think of a time that has some significance to him, as before, and assure him that he doesn't have to reveal the significance. I then pay great attention to his face as I ask two questions:

1) Is this time a personal "up" time, or a "down" time. Not physically up or down - is the time a positive time or a negative time.

Then...

2) Is the thing that happened at this time you are thinking of a thing that happened once, twice, or more?

After these questions (and I sometimes add "Help me out - is this AM or PM?"...like it matters), I "set" the watch, then ask for the time the spectator was thinking of, and end as before. In short, I try to sell the spectator on the fact that one can deduce these things with some accuracy. When it's over I even tell them that if they try this on a friend, they'll be amazed at how close they can get.

[C. Hampton]

The whole situation makes me wonder. A few friends and myself publish a webzine in Spanish where among other things we do a column about new products, similar to the one run by Genii, and since I ordered the time machine I thought that maybe we can do a review of the product there.

But after all your post and upon finding some information about the product made in Argentina I decided to contact Bazar de la Magia who are the ones that market Watch and wear.

Their version of the story (from Bazar de la Magia) so far is that the Time Machine is a rip off version of their product. Since we got information in this forum by David Eldridge, I was wondering if him being a friend of the American manufacturer can give us any view on the subject.

I've read another posts in here where rip off versions are highly accused and criticed, and Bazar is saying that the time machine is a rip off version of W&W.
Me being in the middle of it would like to know both versions of the story to make an informed opinion.

Please keep in mind as I said I am not trying to create any conflicts here, I just want to be able to tell the story the way it is.

Thanks to all for your opinions on the subject and BTW I am still waiting for my unit hopefully will arrive sometime this week after taking the advice of one of the members I ordered from Magic Smith.
:eek:

[Guest]

Yes, I am a friend of the manufacturer here in America, but that is not why I defend him. I defend him because the concept of a watch that does what W&W and TM does is NOT new. The method and/or effect has been around in one form or another for many, many years. One could argue that W&W AND TM is a rip-off of Perfect Time from Collector's Workshop (I don't hear CW complaining, by the way). You could also say that Syd Bergson's A Timely Effect, even though the method is TOTALY different in that the time had to be forced (it still used a gimmicked watch), is the same effect. In the early 1980's Arthur Emerson had an effect out called The Tell-Tale Timepiece, which also used a different method, but had the same effect as W&W, TM, and PT (it also used a BORROWED watch!). In 1979, Fulves published Self-Working Mental Magic in which there is an effect with a digital watch which was the same effect as W&W, TM, and PT. The method was nearly identical to those watches, except that the watch could be borrowed, and you needed a PK magnet. Don't try this trick though. It was published before the now common Digital Quartz watches. It won't work with today's watches. Bummer. In the late 1940's George Boston did a trick in which he wrote a time on a piece of paper, and then asked a spectator to name a time. Of course, the prediction was correct. Barrie Richardson in his book, Theater of The Mind, has several tricks involving watches being used in W&W, TM, and PT style effects. Himber's Ducatillon Mental Watch is a gimmicked watch that allows the performer to devine or predict a selected time. Ted Lesley has a W&W, TM, and PT style effect in his book Paramiracles which uses a pocket watch on a chain. I could go on, but I think that you get my point.

The claim that TM is a rip-off of W&W really does not hold water as the two watches are not made in the same way. While both methods SEEM identical on the outside, the REAL work is totally different. The main difference between the two watches is the way in which they were made. W&W is a cheap watch that was re-wired to make it do what it does. The TM was designed and built from scratch. TM has a small motor inside with a mercury-style on/off switch that works the trick. The TM is a far better product as far as reliability and quality.

[walkinoats]

Andy,

I think the presentation would be stronger from a laymen's point of view if you have the spectator think of a time that is special to them.(David Regal's idea) Unless of course the laymen chooses his "special" time when you are sending your thoughts to him. However, you are right it would put more heat on the watch. But I don't think its going to matter much because when the spectator sees his special time on your watch, he/she will never forget that moment. The trick then becomes personalized.

[Guest]

I've had mine for about a week, and here's some things I've tried:

First, I try to narrow down the target time by phrasing the question so that that hopefully the answer will be a time relatively close to the current time on the watch so I don't have to fill in for a potentially awkward long time.

Second, I have thought about presenting the watch to some electrical engineers as a new voice response watch that is programmed to recognize a number of languages and even slang. "You can tell it the time like 'Half past noon', 'sundown' or 'High Tide', and it will understand. It even understands Yiddish, Russian, French, and Spanish!" I probably should introduce some time misdirection by explaining that you can tell it anything you want, but you have to say the word "engage" to make it happen.

It's wonderful to have the resources of the likes of David Regal here discussing new effects. David, I am looking forward to my reserved set of your new books to show up at my dealer, 'Twin Cities Magic' where you lectured in April '01.

[C. Hampton]

Mr Eldridge,

thanks for your educated reply, I will pass this info to Bazar and see what they have to say.

It's great to receive your help guys.

Sincerely,

Carlos Hampton ;)

[Guest]

Hey Carlos,

My name is not Mr. Eldridge. My name is DAVID. Please, keep me (and the rest of us here) posted as to Bazar's reply.

[C. Hampton]

WILLCO :D

[Guest]

Dear Friends in magic:

A rip-off of our product Watch & Wear has recently been brought into the
market. And more than a rip-off, if you see the pictures of the watches, you
will see that it is a counterfeit! (a bad one)
This rip-off is marketed by some Rob Stiff (wouldnt Rob Steal be a more
appropriate name?).
This person is well known in our market for playing this rip-off game. You
can see in his catalogue several products, which have been copied from other
magicians creations.
In the case of his rip-off of our registered Watch & Wear, he uses a mercury
switch instead of a silver switch like the one we use. While developing
Watch & Wear we tried a mercury switch (marketed by Kevin James) but we
rejected that method for several reasons:
The crystal tube was so fragile for this product, that even small
vibrations made them break thus ruining the whole watch.
Mercury is toxic and dangerous. It requires very special care that may be
provided in other tricks, but not in a watch you may want to wear.
Our current silver switch is more reliable, works forever and allows many
presentations that are simply impossible with a mercury switch. In Watch &
Wear instructions booklet there are some clever Trevor Lewis routines,
which couldnt be performed if the watch had had a mercury switch.

How fragile is a mercury switch? Or better: how long will last a watch with
a mercury switch in it? Well, Rob Steals rip-off has a 30 days warranty,
whereas our Watch & Wear has a 1-year warranty. This detail is something
you will find only in the small print in their instructions booklet and by
no means in their ads. In our ads which incidentally have been running for
6 years so far- it clearly says 1-year warranty.
Nobody here selling the Time machine here said it, and it is a very important DETAIL.
To copy a magic trick is a way of robbing. And Mr. Stiff is well, Robbing.
We are in the business of selling magic tricks. And we need new stuff
all the time. We all know how important it is to have something new to show
to our clients or to put in our catalogues. But a copy is not something
new. It is actually something that makes our business shrink.
We, the serious people who market magic tricks in good faith, shouldnt
allow these things to happen.
Anyway our feeling is that when it comes to unethical affairs (and Rob's
product and behavior can only be labeled as unethical) there shouldn't be
any excuses to support them. I know this may sound as a very extreme
example, but the fact that some people commit crimes doesn't allow me to do
the same. I should decide on which side of the line of ethics I want to stay
and must remain there. Even if it costs me a buck or two.
You may have ordered Rob Steals product in good faith. You couldnt know it
is a poor quality rip-off.
But now you know.

Our Watch & Wear is not a ripp off of the Collectors Workshops Perfect
Time. You can consult about it to Randi, Fantasio, Max Maven, Kevin James,
Gaetan Bloom, Trevor Lewis, and even Mr. Rick Block, that is a very good
friend of us!!
Going back to the Time Machine, there is an Office in the Argentine Embassy in the US, which has
all the backing documents to work on this case. American lawyers will work
on this on behalf of the Argentine Embassy to defend our rights. Rob Stiff
may earn a buck or two with this gambit. But theyll end up in some attorney
s pocket.
Well ring every bell and will do a campaign to inform the American
magicians that the warranty hasnt been properly informed and that there is
selling a product potentially hazardous to their health. Again: a mercury
switch is NOT something you want to put into a watch.
We are business people. We like to compete. Magic needs competition among
creators of magic tricks. But copyright is not something to fool around
with.
We thank you for your understanding and appreciate your help. If you need
any additional information, please feel free to contact us.
Best regards,

Martin Pacheco
Bazar de Magia

[Guest]

I'm looking at my "Time Machine". It certainly doesn't seem like "poor quality" to me. I'd like to know how it is a 'bad counterfiet'. Mine seems to be a quality timepiece. If you can point this out, I will bring it to the attention of my dealer.

I will have to wait and see if the mercury switch is any less robust than a silver switch. From your ads, you do not mention the additional qualities of a silver switch. I'd like to know the alternative handlings that this enables.

Many other electric devices use mercury switches and seem to fare well. My thermostat is over 30 years old and has succesfully kept Minnesota winters at bay all this time. Even if the mercury switch were to break, the waterproof watch is sealed, I assume.

As a consumer caught in the middle, I selected "The Time Machine" based upon the quality of the product, but most importantly, the price and availability is what motivated me to buy it.

I am also a manufacturer and distributor of hobby items, and I have a number of competitors that produce similar items. It is assumed that a successful product or idea will be copied if it is not protected by copyright, patent, or trade secret. Business ethics are often one sided.

[walkinoats]

I have recently purchased the "Time Machine". I love it. After reading the post by Martin Pacheco of Bazar de Magia, I would like to hear a reply from the creator of the Time Machine. Is that possible?

[C. Hampton]

I would love to hear those coments as well.
David is any chance that we can get Robert Stiff side of the story? :(

[Guest]

The threads after Martin's are depressing, especially considering how courteous and accommodating Martin is to deal with, as a dealer, something becoming increasingly rare today.

It surprises me that on a board where people spend a page discussing who was the first to slide a coin behind other coins, that a post like this, which involves money being taken away from an individual, receives little response.

The only response it has seen are posters that do not want to admit the truth of the matter. Just look at the watches, they look almost the same. It seems the fact that magicians are notoriously cheap has come into play. Just because the Time Machine is cheaper people want to justify it and make it "ok".

I own a watch from Martin. I suggest anyone wanting to perform the effect buy one from him too.

[Guest]

If that is true, then why would guys who ALREADY own Watch & Wear take one look at The Time Machine, and say, "Oh yeah! This one is much better. Give me one."? I am not joking. Guys who already spent $190 on W&W spent another $100 to get a Time Machine. People who own one can see the differences in the other.

On another note, I am trying to get Rob to respond to this thread, but because Martin resorted to name calling, and scare tactics (the mercury switch is NOT dangerous, and will only break if you hit it with a hammer. It is very strong.) he feels that it is not worth his time to debate this.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Aaron Shields:
...It seems the fact that magicians are notoriously cheap has come into play. Just because the Time Machine is cheaper people want to justify it and make it "ok"...

Sad but true. It is along similar lines that magicians will state that they spent money in good faith buying an invisible deck and as such they will use Don Alan's gags regardless of whether they were ripped off or not. Not only are magicians cheap but many are lazy too and don't want to spend the time to develop their own routines or material. It is easier to steal from others (both monetarily as well as intelectually) and suffer from sour grapes syndrome watching and bitching about David Blaine rather than demonstrate that they actually do possess ethics of their own.

PSIncerely Yours,
Paul Alberstat
http://www.stores.ebay.ca/abstagecraft

[Guest]

David,

I'm sure the number of people who buy the time machine will far outweigh those who buy both.

Someone "liking it better" is not a sufficient reason to market a knock off. Whether or not it is better quality should not be an issue. The product being marketed is obvously a ripoff.

There's also a reason they stopped selling mercury thermometers years ago.

Aaron

[C. Hampton]

Interesting enough, I found in the cover of the instructions of the TM a copyright statement from Mr Stiff.
Maybe someone can verify that this is a genuine copyright or just x-tra print.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Aaron Shields:
There's also a reason they stopped selling mercury thermometers years ago.

I'm not going to get into any of the other debates, as those have been hacked to death, but I do want to address this comment.

Mercury thermometers are no longer made because they were much more fragile, openly exposed when they broke, and because you placed them into your mouth, providing an easy path for ingestion of a fairly large amount of mercury.

A micro-sized mercury switch is much harder to break, and contains such a small amount of mercury that it is highly unlikely to do any damage at all. Furthermore, in this case, it's sealed inside a watch case, so it's doubly insulated from any possible bodily contact. While Martin is quite right to feel ripped off by Mr. Stiff from my knowlege of the situation, he loses a lot of credibility by resorting to blatantly false scare tactics rather than sticking to the honest merits of his product.

[Guest]

Dear friends in magic:

If you see both watches together from the outside, there is no dubt that
they have exactly the same look (just like a counterfeit).
Mr Stiff use the same movements that Watch Wear inside: "ISA 268"
Why Mr. Stiff decided to do it identical to the Watch & Wear one?... Its
obvious! He wanted to do a rip-off!
But he made a mistake on the inside.... the mercury bulb is too much fragile
to be able to give more than 30 days warranty, and he gives only that.
Watch & Wear gives 1 year warranty!
Maybe the liquid mercury will not damage your health if it breaks inside the
watch case, but it will destroy the movement of the watch on a few seconds.

And regarding the price, let me tell you something:

There is an old joke here in Argentina. A guy goes to a girls a says: "Would
you spend the night with me if I give you money?". She says "of course not!
I'm a decent girl!". "Well", says the guy, "I have 2 million dollars to
offer you for spending the night with me". "Two million?!", says the girl.
"Oh, that would solve all my financial problems and even help my old and
sick granny. Ok, let's do it". Moral: do not confuse decent people with
expensive people.

To your knowledge, this is not the first time that Mr. Stiff steals
something.
He is selling the trick named "Around the world Mind Reading Coloring book",
and it is a rip-off of the "Picto mental 2000", created by the German
magician Ralf Froehlich.
Please, see the trick at:
http://www.hanklee.net/cgi-bin/quikstor ... ry=&detail
=yes&search=yes

And its rip-off at: http://www.magicmakersinc.com/coloringbook.htm
Whos next?

Martin Pacheco

[Guest]

I think this case is becoming more and more obvious. The coloring book and the time machine are not the only effects that have been ripped off on the page Martin mentions. Maybe he just has something against people not in the US.

Super Nail is a rip-off of the original trick by Yves Doumergue from France.

With three effects ripped off on one page, the other items of the page being mainly brass versions of existing effects, and a video of Rob teaching "simple effects" (i.e., unoriginal,) it seems there is not much to debate.

[Guest]

[C. Hampton]

Mr Johnson,

your last msg was hard for me to understand, I do not know if you are trying to make fun of people who English is their second language, in which group I am also included, or what are your intentions.
I didn't want to say anything else until receiving the W&W from Argentina.

If anyone of the members read the rest of my msgs regarding this issue, you will find out that I do not have any friendship whatsoever with any of the partyes involved in this issue.

I have received replys from Mr Pacheco, but nothing from Mr Stiff, after inquiring in this forum.

All the dressing that they have about that the TM was specially made for them is a load of BS.
Yesterday after I received W&W is pretty easy to find out that both watches came out of the same factory or assembly line.

Just remember that W&W has been in the market a few years and TM only a few moths.

I also found out that there is a slightly difference in their workings. W&wW can be put on a table while it does is thing, and can be stopped in a very natural way, everything is well explained in the instrucction booklet included.
The products are very similar but the appereance of the W&W compared to the TM is far superior.
W&W comes in a clasp box, with golden letters, waranty certificate and instruction booklet. TM machine has 3 photocopied pages, a velvet imitation bag, everything in a plastic bag.

My point if any, is to clarify that after having both machines in my possesion, I can verified the acussation made by Mr Pacheco.

Now is the decission of the consumer and the dealers if they want to continue to support piracy. ;)

[Guest]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Eldridge:
[QB]Yes, I am a friend of the manufacturer here in America, but that is not why I defend him. I defend him because the concept of a watch that does what W&W and TM does is NOT new.

The examples cited by Mr Eldridge, cite effect not MO. There are numerous ways to accomplish any effect. When we buy a an effect, possibly one we already do, it's because it has an "improved" method. Usually the improvement is a trade off

I was sent both watches in question for review. It's not complete yet. But here are some impressions. To a non watch guy, they look and operate the same. Neither looks like a Rollex or Movado. The look like watches you find in discount store. Both appear to operate identically

The differences I see , so far , as followsw. W&W has different routines. Time Machine one basic one
W&W has one year Warranty. See none in TM. TM, noticably less expensive.
Now, I recall W&W coming out a few yrs back,I recall Rich Bloch, who then owned CW wasn't happy. And CW released a version of Perfect Time that worked similarly to W&W. TM seemed to surface recently. I gather it's lower price gained it noteriety
If you decide to "save a buck", don't complain if some one markets your effect. It is a free choice.
But creativity should have some reward
from
Ford

[Guest]

I bought Perfect Time a few years ago and love the effect - but found that wearing the watch all the time resulted in the switch breaking...

Is the Time Machine more robust?

And what are the main differences between the two?