F/S: Tommy Wonder 'Ring, Watch & Wallet...MINT, UNOPENED!

[Tom Stone]

...unfairly labeled a "crook" by a poster with a well known agenda

Unfairly? You make no sense.

Yes, if you by "agenda" mean to protest whenever some dishonest crook rip off works belonging to myself or friends of mine, then I guess that agenda is well known by now.

But you are simply wrong in your insinuation that those who protest against individual ripoff artists like Brownbeauty somehow are avid supporters of Magic Makers. Search the forum archives, and you'll find that I was even more outspoken when Magic Makers ripped off my friend Anders Moden.

[Tom Stone]

Ethics

As to ethics, I think there are two areas being discussed. Ethics in advertising an item for sale and the ethics of manufacturing and selling an item. Unfortunately, people’s ideas of ethics vary from person to person – in some cases widely and in others less so. There can really be no right or wrong when opinions differ.

Yes, people's ideas of ethics vary from person to person. Those who strives and struggle to advance their art and comes up with groundbreaking new material have one idea of what is "right", while the lazy thieves who constantly are trying to cash in on the work of others - work they've had no hand in - have a whole other idea of what is "right".

And your stance is, if I understand it properly: If the person who is doing a transgression have the opinion that what he is doing is alright, then the action is neither "right" nor "wrong"?

[Syd]

Tom, trying to attack me is a bit silly. I have taken no position either way for the reason that I don't want to get into a "discussion" with folks such as yourself that can't seem to avoid personal attacks. The do little to advance the discussion or the art. Being "certain" about something doesn't make you, or me for that matter, correct.

[Tom Stone]

Tom, trying to attack me is a bit silly. I have taken no position either way for the reason that I don't want to get into a "discussion" with folks such as yourself that can't seem to avoid personal attacks. The do little to advance the discussion or the art. Being "certain" about something doesn't make you, or me for that matter, correct.

Syd, take a look at what you wrote again. Especially this:

There can really be no right or wrong when opinions differ.

In what way is that not an open invitation to all kinds of rebuttals on all sorts of levels?

[Syd]

Nope. Not when we are dealing with the concept of ethics in the absence of an accepted, written, clear and concise document. To the contrary, our art has none. Maybe the gentleman who made this prop thinks he was "right." I don't know and he hasn't said. If he thinks he was wrong then the two of you agree and he chose to do the "wrong" thing. I can't speak for him. I don't think it is right to call someone a "crook" without all of the facts. Maybe you have them but I don't. If you don't, the we disagree about basic courtesies. It doesn't make me right, it just means we don't agree. If I had all of the facts, I might completely agree with you.

[Tom Stone]

The guy has been soliciting orders in violation to the Tommy's commercial rights statement since at least 2006, and I've seen more than one of his emails. I had a computer crash in 2009, so I can't recover the "Watch..." emails. But this one, from October 2010, is about the commercial manufacturing of another Tommy Wonder item. I've removed some names.

Hello (name removed),

My name is Rudy Sanchez and I live in Southern Calif. I was given your name and email address by (name removed). He thought you might be interested in my offering asked me to write you.

I have sold high end magic products to (name removed) in the past.

Here is my proposal.

I have commissioned to be made for me and 6 very famous Magicians
the effect in Tommy Wonders book, his watch in nest of boxes version 3.

This is his most desirable version, it is also his most
difficult. (name removed) at Hocus Pocus will be selling one on his site with
the books (this will make it fair, since that is the agreement
that anyone with the books can make the props).
And anyone else must either have the books or purchase them with the prop I am about to discuss in this email.

Mr. (name removed) will be getting one and
some other as I said very famous magicians.

I am sending this email out because one of the buyers had to back
out and I'm looking for one more.

The builder is the premier builder of illusions and magic props in
the world. He has improved the quality and there will be nothing
like it. He does wish to remain anonymous and I will respect his wishes.

In case you aren't familiar with the effect or prop you can see it
on YouTube or read about it in his Book of Wonder

I hope I haven't bothered you. That is not my intention. If you
are interested, I would need a deposit as soon as the first progress pictures are made available and emailed to each of the six buyers. (it could go through PayPal
or put on a credit card for safety reason and to make sure both of
us are protected. Pictures for progress updates won't be forwarded until mid to late November.
Once pictures have been sent we will then require a 50% deposit. All I need is one more buyer who I'll commit and leave a deposit once the progress pictures become available.

Can I add you to the list. You would take the place of our dropout.

I would be able to furnish references from reputable and well
respected members of the magic community as well as my real
business which is a textile mill and I could furnish references
from that business.

As of now all parts are being cut and manufactured. I should have
parts to photograph for viewing to buyers as indicated in the above paragraph.

If you are at all interested please let me know and contact me. I
only have the one unit and I have made contact with several
potential buyers.

Thank you for your time,

Rudy Sanchez
My alternate email address is.... Rudy@----.com

[Roger M.]

You (and some other contributors to this thread) want to make it black and white Tom, and in reality it's all very gray.

I'm not so clueless as to not understand what you're saying Tom, I understand you clearly.
I just don't agree 100% with what you're saying.
Not agreeing with somebody does not in any way equal a failure to understand the issue.

On any given day, I'm on your side on the entire issue Tom, and don't disagree with on the substance of your position, or your thinking on the issue. I've read your posts for years now.

But in this case I think you're viewing this only as part of your ongoing efforts to protect your good friend, and not seeing the gray areas intrinsic to the whole process.

There is a discussion of one prop per each set of Tommy's books. There's discussion as to the timeline of the creation of the prop and how it leads up to finding it's eventual owner. There's the discussion of commissioning of props as Rudy commissioned these ones. There's the discussion as to whether timelines should impact ones thinking on the ethical creation of any given prop. There's the discussion as to how many (if not most) people don't have the skills to create Tommy's props as he designed them, and have to commission their creation.

It is, in reality, a massive discussion with many different voices and many different opinions to be heard.

It's not an open and closed case, and it's not a cut and dried issue ... it's a discussion with a multitude of opinions and points to be made.

Because I've read your posts for years, I don't expect I'll change your mind about anything. It's important to note though, that you're not the arbitrator of what's right and what's wrong, and that your voice is but one of the many ... as is mine.

[Tom Pilling]

I tend to agree that this was a poor way to advertise what was on offer, and definitely the wrong approach, but I think it's a shame that Rudy was banned. I have had very good dealings with him, in the second hand market.

I find it hard to believe that anyone would even contemplate buying such a package who was not familiar with either Tommy Wonder's books, DVD's or both. We're talking about a $1500 purchase here; it's not for children.

Clearly, AVD now has the blessing of the Wonder estate to manufacture the item. Even if this were not so, nobody should be commercially offering the props for this routine without the blessing of the estate. However, like RK, I see nothing wrong with giving Rudy a call and asking him to manufacture it to the Tommy Wonder specifications. I have considered getting Todd Lassen to make the coins for Tommy Wonder's coins across. It may still happen; the routine is very deceptive. Unfortunately, I can't gaff coins for s***, so I'd have to ask Todd. I have a Tommy Wonder style box, built to his specifications, as set out by him for his ACR. It works beautifully. I didn't make that either. They call me 'Ten Thumbs Pilling', when it comes to carpentry.

[Richard Kaufman]

Two salient points:

1. The buyer must own the book and request that the prop be manufactured for his use.

2. The prop can only be made upon request of the book owner.

Manufacturers may not simply take it upon themselves to produce these props, which are the intellectual property of Tommy Wonder's estate, without a license from the estate.

And ... finally, if you're going to state that something is "one-of-a-kind" it better damn well be ONE of a kind. Not the second, fourth, or tenth one you've made.

[Tom Pilling]

For sure, to all of that.

But, and it's a big "but", I have considered purchasing this set of props, over the years since I bought the 'Books of Wonder'. I see it advertised, both on AVD's site and in other places, mainly made by RS. It's too much for me to invest in this trick. I don't love it enough. But I see no moral dilemma in purchasing a custom prop that I consider worthwhile, and have the necessary purchasing history to ethically support, if, and it's a huge "if", it is a cast off from an unfulfilled order.

[erdnasephile]

FWIW, my personal habit is that when I would like to have a specific prop described in a book I own, I attempt to buy from the author first (if they offer the prop for sale). If not, I buy the authorized version (if there is one for sale). If not, I contact the author for permission to have the prop made for me.

If the author is deceased and there are no authorized versions, I try to ascertain the intent of the author from what they have written in the copyright section and what they have written in the book. For example, if they say: "I hope you try this" or "I hope you enjoy performing these effects", then I feel free to have a prop constructed for my use and perform the routine in my shows.

I feel in this way I try to give the author as much respect/monetary recompense as possible for his/her creation. If I can't afford the authorized version of the prop, then I make it myself (with permission) or I don't do that routine.

I'm not perfect, nor holier than thou--that's just how I personally try to deal with the issue in a practical fashion. YMMV.