Lots of magic books listed on Ebay.

[Andy Hurst]

I've listed quite a few magic books on Ebay, mostly on 3 day auctions with very low opening bids.

Mostly card books and mentalism.

My Ebay List

Check the list frequently as I am adding more over the next couple of days.

[Bill Mullins]

Too bad you won't take checks -- you've got some stuff I'd like to bid on.

[Guest]

Too bad you won't take checks -- you've got some stuff I'd like to bid on. -Bill Mullins

Checks are so-o-o-o 20th Century, Bill. You can tie PayPal into your checking account (I believe it is their preferred method) and also create a credit balance by paying them a check.

--Randy Campbell

[Jamie Badman]

Well... kind of, Randy.

The thing is, theft is rife on PayPal. Just go to www.paypalsucks.com to see just how many people have been ripped off on there.

This is what happened to me:

I sold a book on Ebay. For $250. The person said it was a gift for his nephew - for a birthday in 3 days time - would I mind sending it direct to the nephew. I said no problem. The PayPal money appeared in my account.

I sent the book.

Then a few days later, the payment was reversed out of my account! The guy had got in touch with Paypal and had said that he had never authorised the payment in the first place - someone must have obtained his password!

THEY TOOK THEIR MONEY BACK OUT OF MY PAYPAL ACCOUNT! Can you believe that ?! No credit card company on the planet would do that.

I appealed. Paypal said tough. Because I'd sent to an address other than the guys registered address.

Then... ebay chimed in. They wanted comission for the sale. I appealed through their 'bad buyer' system. No result. They're still insisting I owe them money now. I'm not paying it. THIS DESPITE THE FACT THAT PAYPAL AND EBAY ARE SISTER COMPANIES! Surely they could easily track that the payment was reversed.

Anyway, the upshot of it all is I'm never using PayPal again. And I recommend no one else does either. It's so open for fraud because they ALWAYS side for the person paying the money when reversing funds. Check it out on the paypalsucks site.

Paypal might be modern but it's not safe by any stretch of the imagination.

Jamie.

[CHRIS]

Jamie,

I don't want to defend PayPal, but so far I have had pretty good experience with them and many of my customers like it very much. It is convenient.

However, fraud can easily happen on the internet. This is not exclusive to PayPal. I just had another break-in into my system where somebody got an ebook for less than it sells. This is fixed now, luckily, but it illustrates that scam artists are attracted by the internet because it gives lots of anonymity.

Coming back to your particular case, you didn't follow PayPal's recommendations. They even state that you should be careful sending to 'unconfirmed' addresses. Always send such expensive packets with delivery confirmation. I agree with you that PayPal and Ebay could still act differently in such a case and perhaps look at your own transaction histories and realize that you were ripped off by this guy. But it is not like you couldn't have prevented this rip-off yourself.

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

[pduffie]

Hi Chris

My address always shows as "Unconfirmed Address" despite having my bank card properly registered and having used the Paypal service a lot.

Regards

Peter

[Jamie Badman]

Chris,

It's not that other sites are more secure - it's the whole approach that PayPal take that is wrong.

If someone else's account is compromised, why should *I* be penalised for that ? It's not like I gave my password away or anything - I just received funds then sent goods out in good faith.

More info - I actually phoned PayPal. It takes a LONG time to get through to a human. Then she was EXTREMELY unhelpful and very rude. She hung up on me. In www.paypalsucks.com this is a typical experience.

You may never have had a problem - but if you ever have just ONE $250 problem that'll be enough to put you off their system for life. I'm not asking you to heed my advice - I just offer it to you for your consideration. Their whole approach sucks; be warned.

Jamie.

[Charlie Chang]

I've also been screwed by Paypal. Their system is very easy to abuse, I have had an experience very similar to Jamie Badman's.

I do admit that Paypal is very convenient to use, though. I use my girlfriend's account occasionally because of the convenience. I would never again open my own account and I've warned my girlfriend against keeping excess funds in her account.

[BrendanK]

Peter,
I too register as an <unconfirmed address>

- I believe/hope that it is because my Credit card billing address (set up pre-email and the Web) has fewer lines/fields than PayPal and eBay request when signing up.
Can anyone confirm this?

I would be wary of dealing with me,
if <unconfirmed address> appeared on any buyer's details!!
cheers
Brendan

[CHRIS]

Originally posted by Peter Duffie:
[QBMy address always shows as "Unconfirmed Address" despite having my bank card properly registered and having used the Paypal service a lot.[/QB]

Peter,

here is directly from PayPal's website:

How can I confirm an Unconfirmed Address?
An address can become confirmed one of two ways:
1. When you add a credit card to your PayPal account, the address on file with your credit card company becomes Confirmed.

The second way is only for US residents. So if in your case 1. is fulfilled I would try to send them an email. The amount of usage of your PayPal account doesn't matter for this issue.

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

[CHRIS]

Originally posted by Jamie Badman:
If someone else's account is compromised, why should *I* be penalised for that?

Jamie,

right or wrong here is from PayPals protection policy:

The Seller Protection Policy protects you against chargebacks when you ship goods to the buyer's confirmed address and are able to provide proof of online tracking. If you ship to an unconfirmed address and the buyer consequently files either a Buyer Complaint or a Guarantee Reimbursement Request for the non-receipt of goods, you will be held liable under the Seller Protection Policy.

So clearly you didn't adhere to PayPal's policy. They also have to protect buyers from fraudulent sellers. They chose a buyer friendly policy, I guess because there are more buyers than sellers. But as seller you just have to be carefull and adhere to their recommendations. Send only to confirmed address with delivery notification. If that is not possible then ask your buyer for alternative payment, money order for example.

In your case this guy tricked you. He gave you a nice story so that you send the packet quickly and to a different address and then he requested the money back. He clearly understands PayPal's policy and used it against you. I don't see that PayPal did anything wrong. They have to adhere to their policy. You can disagree with their choice of policy, but you can't ask them to violate their own rules, that would then really be bad.

I agree that customer service at PayPal is not great. On the other hand most everything is found in their help system online. Takes longer to read and search but so far I have found everything I needed on their site.

I like the ease of use in PayPal. I could do the same with VeriSign, but their system is a lot more difficult to use and much more expensive. So clearly PayPal is understanding the need for a simple and affordable yet powerful payment system. It is not perfect but it works for me.

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

[Jamie Badman]

Hi Chris,

I know, technically I screwed up. BUT... how many of you read the smallprint on these things ? And how many people read all the terms and conditions when installing software on their PC ? Add to that how PayPal change their terms and conditions every so often (you have to 'agree' again to their new set of rules).

Jamie.

[pduffie]

"An address can become confirmed one of two ways:
1. When you add a credit card to your PayPal account, the address on file with your credit card company becomes Confirmed."

Thanks Chris - I had seen that. And, as Brendan and I have proved - this is not always the case.

Regards

Peter

[CHRIS]

Peter,

one thing I could imagine being the case is that there is a slight spelling difference in the address PayPal has on file and the one your bank has on file. I assume PayPal has an automated system which just compares two set of strings. If they match you are 'confirmed'. So even a difference in punctuation or spaces might prevent you becoming confirmed.

Have you contacted PayPal? What are they saying?

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

[CHRIS]

Jamie,

loosing $250 is painful and I would be just as upset as you are, perhaps even more. But put yourself in PayPal's shoes. How can they know if you are an honest seller or not and if the buyer is telling the truth or not? They can't. Maybe you sent the package or not. With a delivery confirmation they would at least know that you sent something. But then a fraudulent seller could send something different than advertised. So there are many ways of being dishonest and making a quick buck either way.

The best way PayPal has to distinguish between good and bad guys is to look at their transaction history. How often has a person charged back? How often are there complaints?

For buyers they provide one piece of valuable information. They show in brackets the number of transaction to verified customers. My account currently shows (156). That means 156 customers with confirmed addresses have shopped at my site. If some merchant has 0 or a very low number one should be careful. Once a business is established it is less likely to run into a scam artist.

Bottom line is that one should be careful online. Deal with people and businesses you know or have a good reputation. Don't hand out personal information to anyone who asks.

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

[Terry]

Chris,

Jaime was just issuing a public warning about a very bad experience he had with a gutless thief and the lack of customer service he received from PayPal. Period.

By your multiple posts, you felt the need to defend your position and PayPal, even though no one asked. You have made your point, try to let it go.

EBay has proven to be unsympathetic to sellers. Do we need to rehash the Busby BS that happened? I think not.

[CHRIS]

Terry,

I think Jamie made an unfair attack on PayPal. Jamie didn't read the policy and is now complaining that PayPal sticks to their policy. I don't see any fault with PayPal in Jamie's case. One can argue about their policy in general, but Jamie accepted their policy by signing up. So deal with it. Tell me, what did PayPal do wrong in this case?

Yes, I admit their customer service lacks and I am sure they have their fair share of screw ups just as one can find with any business online or offline. But in Jamie's case I don't see any fault on PayPal's side.

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

[Robert Allen]

PayPal is a scam. I believe they've changed their policies slightly since Ebay bought them, but they still are very very suspect, for these reasons:

1) they charge you a fee if you want to get your money BACK out of your account in the form of a check, and they take up to 2 weeks to deliver it (getting interest all that time).

2) To get past their 1k limit on purchases you must be verified, which means giving them access to auto-deposit to your checking account. What they don't tell you is that when you give someone the ability to auto-deposit, they also have the ability to auto-withdrawl. Just imagine how a dispute would be if they accidentally withdrew the wrong amount. They're not a bank or a credit card company so they aren't regulated by those rules.

3) I've now seen that some vendors won't take PayPal credit card payments because apparently PayPal is charging a significant fee for credit card transations, despite that having been the whole point of having a PayPal account originally.

4) If you and a seller agree to return an item, PayPal *cannot* credit your credit card; the money for the refund goes into your PayPal account. Thus you're still paying credit card interest on the amount, you will have to pay to get that money back in the form of a check from PayPal, and finally, that refund amount continues to count against your 1k total if you're not a verified member.

Just say No to Paypal if you want to keep your money. It's just another very expensive form of escrow service in disguise, without the guarantees of an escrow service.

[Richard Kaufman]

I've used PayPal successfully for years with no problem.
Jamie is wrong in complaining about having had the $250 withdrawn from his account if he is making a complaint against PayPal because this can happen to ANY Visa or Mastercard merchant: the customer can always inform his credit card company that he either didn't order the merchandise or never received it, or whatever, and the company will reverse the charge. This is not exclusive to PayPal and is irrelevant to any discussion of how PayPal functions.
I buy lots of stuff on eBay and most of the time try to buy ONLY from merchants who accept PayPal because it's so easy and quick to pay.
I also disgree with Robert Allen: in order for something to be a "scam," there have to be hidden costs that are not explained to the people using the system. All of PayPal's policies are clearly explained to those who READ THEM. If you don't read and abide by them, you have only yourself to blame. If you don't like them, don't use PayPal. There is no "scam" involved.

[CHRIS]

Robert,

hardly a scam. They have their policies and they stick to them. Scam would be if they wouldn't tell you what they are going to do. If you don't like PayPal's policies then don't use them. If they change policies while you are with them cancel. Very simple. But don't accept their terms and then start wining like Jamie did.

There are just as many good reasons to use PayPal as there are the ones you listed. For example if I use my credit card online I have to trust the merchant with my card number. PayPal hides that information for me. I don't have to send every merchant my credit card info and still can do business with them. Much safer if you ask me.

Regarding cost for a merchant. This depends on the size of the merchant. Magic being a tiny business, PayPal is much more cost effective. Take for example VeriSign Payflow. The Pro version costs $250 setup fee and $60 monthly with a limit on transactions. The cheaper Payflow Link cost still $180 setup fee and $20 monthly plus and per transaction fees.

Compare this to PayPal. No setup fee, actually you are receiving $5 credit in your account, and no monthly fee. Yes, the per item fee might be higher if it goes through a credit card, but most of my customers have a PayPal balance in their account and so the fee from PayPal to PayPal account is quite low. Unless you are pulling in lots of revenue online PayPal is the choice for the small merchant cost wise.

Also keep in mind PayPal is automatic. If one does not use Verisign Payflow you have to process credit cards by hand. Takes more time and time being money costs you more in the end.

This is why I find PayPal a smart service. Perhaps I was lucky having had no big problems with PayPal. PayPal is growing which tells me that there are many happy customers.

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

[Bill Mullins]

Wow -- this topic sure went in a different direction in a hurry.

My original point to Andy, which I should have made more explicitly (and I'll make it to anyone who is in the business of selling stuff), is:

Why make it hard for anyone who wants to give you money, to give you money?

I don't particularly like Paypal. I've got my reasons, what they are isn't really relevant. That Andy has put up this barrier is just bad salesmanship.

[Jamie Badman]

Good point, Bill. I agree entirely.

Chris - I wasn't 'wining' (sic!) - I was just warning users of PayPal what CAN happen. They may not have been aware that something like that could take place - I know I wasn't until it actually happened. I simply don't see what's wrong with trying to warn people about problems with a system; you guys seem to want to fight no matter what.

Jamie.

[Chris Aguilar]

Originally posted by Jamie Badman:
I simply don't see what's wrong with trying to warn people about problems with a system; you guys seem to want to fight no matter what.

Jamie.

Actually, there aren't any "problems" in the system if you properly read the rules and take the time to understand them. Upon proper understanding of said rules, one can choose not to use the service.

The validity of your complaint fades when one realizes that you're claiming ignorance of the terms and conditions as an excuse to cry about the situation.

[CHRIS]

Jamie,

I appreciate the part in your post where you described what happened and so informed us what kind of scam artists are out there. Very good and very helpful post.

However the part where you attacked PayPal was unjustified.

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

[Matt R]

The PayPal chargeback is another reason not
to "upgrade" to their "premium" account which
not only charges you fees but also subjects you to
possible fraud.

I accept the eCheck, e-transfers, and PayPal
balance trans only although this is tough for
the international guys.

If you accept credit cards from unknown parties
you must require that they pay for insurance
and tracking for your own protection.

[Robert Allen]

My final comment on scam'ness :) -

1) Perhaps I've missed it, but I don't see anywhere where they advise you that their "verification" scheme ends up giving them withdrawl access to your checking account.

2) Perhaps I've missed it, but I did not see anywhere where they advised you that credit card transations are one way only: they won't un-credit refunds, the money goes into your "account" where they draw interest on it.

'nuff said (by me anyway)

[Jamie Badman]

Wert; I'm not 'crying' about anything. Grow up.

Chris (and all) - something else you may or may not be aware of is that if you appeal against a chargeback to Paypal and they decide that fraudulent activity took place - albeit by the other party, there is a high chance they will freeze your account. Unfreezing your account is supposedly very difficult.

Robert - it doesn't say anywhere on the site that they have the right to reverse payments back out of your account. I was never aware this was even possible. It seems it's some implicit thing they can do based on any indication of fraudulent activity. Firstly, they do NOT consult you. They just take the money out. Then to discuss it with them, is very difficult - you lodge an appeal - which goes through an automated system - that doesn't actually appear to do very much at all. You just get an email a few days later saying the appeal failed. No indication as to why it failed. And it's automated email which is even more frustrating. By the accounts on www.paypalsucks.com no appeal has been successful.

Not much point in bickering any more about whether PayPal is or isn't a 'good thing' - it seems either you believe it is, or you believe it is not. Forewarned is forearmed, that's all.

Jamie.

[Chris Aguilar]

Originally posted by Jamie Badman:
Wert; I'm not 'crying' about anything. Grow up.

I beg to differ.

Originally posted by Jamie Badman:

THEY TOOK THEIR MONEY BACK OUT OF MY PAYPAL ACCOUNT! Can you believe that ?! No credit card company on the planet would do that.

Anyway, the upshot of it all is I'm never using PayPal again. And I recommend no one else does either.

It's so open for fraud because they ALWAYS side for the person paying the money when reversing funds.

Their whole approach sucks; be warned.

Sounds like crying to me. :)

[CHRIS]

Originally posted by Robert Allen:
1) Perhaps I've missed it, but I don't see anywhere where they advise you that their "verification" scheme ends up giving them withdrawl access to your checking account.

Robert,

as far as I know they can't do that without your approval. I can transfer money to and from my bank account from my PayPal account. In each case they need my explicit approval. I don't think they can simply withdraw from my account without my ok (an email or online form where I granted approval). But I will check with my bank if that is the case.

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

[Chris Aguilar]

Originally posted by Chris Wasshuber:
...
as far as I know they can't do that without your approval. .... I don't think they can simply withdraw from my account without my ok (an email or online form where I granted approval).

Chris Wasshuber

From re-reading the user agreement, I actually think it's possible that they can.

Check it out. (bold is mine)

Additionally, to secure your performance of this Agreement, you grant to PayPal a lien on and security interest in your account. In addition, you acknowledge that PayPal may setoff against any accounts you own for any obligation you owe PayPal at any time and for any reason allowed by law. These obligations include both secured and unsecured debts and debts you owe individually or together with someone else. PayPal may consider this Agreement as your consent to PayPal's asserting its security interest or exercising its right of setoff should any law require your consent. The rights described in this section are in addition to and apart from any other rights.

I'm not a lawyer and could easily be reading this wrong, but this section seems pertinent.

It is item eleven at the following link if anyone wants to see the whole thing.

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cm ... #section11

[Jamie Badman]

On www.paypalsucks.com the first recommendation to take in conflict with PayPal is to cancel your credit card (if that's how you've set it up). If you have a negative paypal balance they will eventually charge it to your card. Now in the case of a Debit card (which in the UK at least are also valid VISA/Mastercards and act for all intents and purposes like Credit Cards) this means they extract what they need directly from your bank account.

Anyway, don't take my word on PayPal. Why not check out what hundreds of other people have to say. I doubt we could ALL be stupid enough not to read all the fine print, right ?

Here's a law firm site - they've filed a first class action against PayPal regarding their right to entirely freeze accounts of innocent parties in scams and also to attempt to enforce them to compensate parties who are scammed through their system.

http://www.girardgibbs.com/paypal.html


Here's the site of someone who had big problems with PayPal - an interesting story:

http://www.sumcomputers.com/nomorepaypal.htm


Here's an interesting news story about someone else who had a run-in with PayPal:

http://dir.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/ ... index.html


Here's an MSN article, published on ZDNet regarding a scam and how it worked. More to the point, when asked why they did not help the people scammed, PayPal issued this statement:

"PayPal is not an escrow service, and cannot protect buyers from sellers with illegal or unsavory business practices."

The link is http://zdnet.com.com/2100-11-502663.html?legacy=zdnn


And finally here's a scam people are using to obtain PayPal credentials - which is possibly what was used on the scam that took me for $250:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/29615.html

My point is, no matter how many people in this thread say I'm wrong, I deserve to lose my money, I'm whining or I'm crying, I'm just one of MANY, MANY people who have had BIG problems with PayPal - their system AND their customer service.

If you want to continue using them, by all means do so - but at least read some of those links above - then you won't be going ahead blindly.

I guess I'll make this my last post on the subject - it's not magic related, though it potentially affects many brother magicians - since Magic is very big online now. I feel I've done 'my bit' - the rest is up to you.

Jamie.

[Chris Aguilar]

Just think Jamie.

What if you had done all that research before you signed up with, and had your problems with Paypal... :)

[Jamie Badman]

Wert - you know what, you are 100% correct - I wish I had done. But while a system works for you, you tend not to question it - I didn't even realise people had problems with it. When it all went wrong for me, I checked it out a bit and found I was just one of many people who had been scammed on the net taking advantage of PayPal's chargeback system.

100% hindsight, eh ?!

Jamie.

[Bill Mullins]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Jamie is wrong in complaining about having had the $250 withdrawn from his account if he is making a complaint against PayPal because this can happen to ANY Visa or Mastercard merchant: the customer can always inform his credit card company that he either didn't order the merchandise or never received it, or whatever, and the company will reverse the charge. This is not exclusive to PayPal and is irrelevant to any discussion of how PayPal functions.

Richard, I'm not sure you are right here. If a charge appears on your credit card, you can contest it and if it is fraudulent or a mistake, you can typically get it reversed. If a charge appears in your Paypal account (as Jamie described), the credit/banking laws that protect you against bad credit card charges don't apply, since Paypal isn't a bank, and you lose this level of protection. (You also don't have this protection if you use a Visa or Mastercard debit card).

[Ryan Matney]

Regarding the original topic. I sell some things on ebay from time to time. Usually when I need extra money when going on a trip or something. I defintly do not want to wait for checks to get to me and clear and have boxes all around me in the meantime. Paypal is much much easier. I don't think thats bad salemanship. I've used paypal and the Debit card for quite awhile and had no problems so far.

Also, I have a friend who recently had a fairly large charge he didn't make appear on his paypal account. This was a fruadulant charge and despite all that's been said here, he DID get his money back in a week or so.

[Jamie Badman]

It's almost exclusively the seller who has the trouble, Ryan, not the buyer.

Jamie.

[Mark Jensen]

PayPal is a company that has made a decision not to focus on customer satisfaction. This doesn't mean that you can't use their system and find it fast, easy and convienient. A company's commitment to Customer Sat. is measured by 2 things:

1. How well they respond to customer issues and complaints.
2. What they do internally to prevent problems from reoccurring.

When you have a problem with PayPal and try to get it resolved their lack of commitment becomes clear to you.

Although I still use PayPal it is due more to people like Richard who prefer the convenience of using the PayPal system. It is a risk I accept as a service to my customers. However, I can tell you from 1st hand experience that PayPal is impossible to deal with if you have a problem.

As stated previously, it is very difficult to actually connect to a live person on their customer service number. Yes, they have a lot of information on-line, but it doesn't cover everything. When it doesn't, it should be easy for customers (and that is what every user of their system is) to get their issues resolved. The so called Customer Service reps are rude and are clearly not interested in customer satisfaction.

My issue should have been straight forward. I have a business account with them (for my company, That's Impossible Inc.). (I also have a merchant account, but added PayPal as a service for my customers). I usually fund payments made with that account with either existing balances or my company credit card. By mistake I attempted to fund a payment with my company bank account, which was refused. (Note: They automatically charged it to my credit card anyway).

They froze my account and stated that I needed to send them several pieces of information to get the account reinstated. One of the items they wanted was a notorized approval form for them to make withdrawls from our company bank account. I notified them by email, phone and letter that it is against our company policy to allow other entities to make debits directly against our account (this is part of our anti-fraud policy). I offered to provide them with everything else they requested as well as a notorized letter from our bank. They refused to even discuss the matter.

After going round and round with them for over 4 months, I spoke again with one of their Reps (for the 3rd time_ and I asked to talk with a supervisor and was told that their supervisors don't talk to customers. They then hung up on me. I finally gave up and submitted everything they requested and that still wasn't good enough for them. My account is in the company name. One of the items they requested was a copy of a recent utility bill. I sent them a recent utility bill (in the company name) and that wasn't good enough. They then wanted a mailing in my name to the company address. They already had a notorized affidavite from my bank that I was the president of the company and an authorized signitore on the account. They kept requesting additional information. It was a literal nightmare to get this issue resolved to that I could get the money that legally belonged to the company.

Personally I believe that they sell customers personal information. Why do I believe this? Well, I created a special email address that I registered with my account. I never used this email address. Not to make a payment, not to receive a payment, not to send an email. Yet, a few weeks after I registered that email I started receiving SPAM to that address. I suspose that their could be another explanation, but I sure can't think of it.

Just the views of one dissatisfied PayPal Customer. :mad:

Mark Jensen
That\'s Impossible Inc.

[scott snider]

I just came to this thread after leaving ebay and asking a seller of magic books if they would change their mind about their "pay pal only" policy. Boy, it is amazing and thankful this thread has done a loop. There is some great info to be learned here. I am one of those unfortunate folks that have had a bad experience with pay pal and theft identity also. I am still trying to straighten it out and don't know if I ever will. I saw the remark about Checks and MO's being so 20th century but then...just call me old fashion.

[Guest]

Mark:
I'm wondering if anything will change now that eBay has bought PayPal.