Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
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Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
In putting together a little photographic history of the Houdini Water Torture Cell for my website, and I can across this interesting article from the Las Vegas Weekly, 2003. It talks about the discovery of a perfect replica of the USD, allegedly made by John Gaughan without Sid Radner's blessing, and that legal action was being taken.
http://www.lasvegasweekly.com/2003/12/11/upfront4.html
Does anyone have any follow-up information on this? I've seen pics of Sid and John standing together smiling in front of the one-and-only USD at the 2004 Great Houdini auction, so obviously something was resolved. Was this replica destroyed as Sid wanted?
:genii:
www.houdini-lives.com
http://www.lasvegasweekly.com/2003/12/11/upfront4.html
Does anyone have any follow-up information on this? I've seen pics of Sid and John standing together smiling in front of the one-and-only USD at the 2004 Great Houdini auction, so obviously something was resolved. Was this replica destroyed as Sid wanted?
:genii:
www.houdini-lives.com
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Interesting. That was a story from 2003, when the prop was valued at $1.5 million. At the auction it sold for $300,000.
Breach of contract -- that's a serious thing to accuse another of. Would you kindly refresh my memory as to what Houdini's will stated was to be the dispensation of the cell?
John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/
Breach of contract -- that's a serious thing to accuse another of. Would you kindly refresh my memory as to what Houdini's will stated was to be the dispensation of the cell?
John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Houdini's Will stipulated that all his magic apparatus go to his brother, Hardeen, and that they should be "burnt and destroyed" upon Hardeen's death. Hardeen instead gave and/or sold the props to Sid Radner.Originally posted by John LeBlanc:
Would you kindly refresh my memory as to what Houdini's will stated was to be the dispensation of the cell?
Ironically, the Houdini Magical Hall of Fame, where many of the props, including the USD, were on loan, burned down in the 1990s destroying the vast majority of themjust as Houdini wished.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
There was a rather lengthy discussion of the Water Torture Cell's history in the January 2005 Genii. Yes, there indeed has been some controversy about a reproduction that was made of the Water Torture Cell. The Las Vegas Weekly article is correct in who the players in this dispute are. I understand, however, that this replica was not an operational model, but rather designed as a unique piece of display furniture and is being used as a bookcase in the maker/owner's office. Sid Radner saw the situation differently.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Houdini's Will stipulated that all his magic apparatus go to his brother, Hardeen, and that they should be "burnt and destroyed" upon Hardeen's death. Hardeen instead gave and/or sold the props to Sid Radner. [/QB][/QUOTE]Originally posted by zencat:
Thanks to Hurricane Katrina, I can't check my own "archives" right now...but didn't Hardeen have a protege' (not Radner) who ended up with much of his show equipment? I seem to remember a young fellow working with Hardeen and even filling in for him at times during his run in "Hellzapoppin'".
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
John Gaughan did build a non-working replica of the Water Torture cell for himself when he restored it (prior to the fire).
I have no idea what the current status of Sid Radner's supposed legal action is. It's probably a dead issue.
It's my understanding that the bulk of the Houdini material in the Museum was not burned in the fire. Most of the good stuff is now in David Copperfield's posession, with the exception of Psycho, which is now owned by John Gaughan.
I have no idea what the current status of Sid Radner's supposed legal action is. It's probably a dead issue.
It's my understanding that the bulk of the Houdini material in the Museum was not burned in the fire. Most of the good stuff is now in David Copperfield's posession, with the exception of Psycho, which is now owned by John Gaughan.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
The items burned in the fire were reported to include 2 strait jackets, a "Plate Glass" box, the "Flight of Karma," "Sarcophogus" and "the Blue Room," some posters, including a perhaps unique 8 sheet, some small props, the sealed envelop containing Houdini's secret message, and the Water Torture Cell.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
It actually sold for $150,000.Originally posted by John LeBlanc:
[QB] Interesting. That was a story from 2003, when the prop was valued at $1.5 million. At the auction it sold for $300,000.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Now I'm confused. I was watching The History Channel's piece on Houdini, in which they featured lots of video from the Great Houdini Auction. The telephone bidder (who I understand turned out to be David Copperfield) won the auction with a $300,000 bid.Originally posted by Michael Edwards:
It actually sold for $150,000.
But a quick check shows that lot 379, the Water Torture Cell, did go for $150,000.
How is that?
UPDATE: Never mind. I used that swell feature here on Genii called "Search" and found your explanation from a year ago . I also see we are repeating here the same issue -- and answer -- that was raised a year ago.
John
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Most importantly, forgot to add that David Copperfield had the Water Torture again restored with the wood and hardware from the period. Had the chance to spend sometime seeing the new restoration and David pointed out something very eerie, in one of the interior walls a clear silhoutte of Houdini's profile could be clearly seen shaped by the outside light. Sometimes you wonder.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Well, I wouldn't kill to be admitted to lay hands on Copperfield's collection of magic, but I could be persuaded to maim someone pretty good to have a shot at spending a day or two among the pieces.Originally posted by Mario Carrandi:
Most importantly, forgot to add that David Copperfield had the Water Torture again restored with the wood and hardware from the period. Had the chance to spend sometime seeing the new restoration and David pointed out something very eerie, in one of the interior walls a clear silhoutte of Houdini's profile could be clearly seen shaped by the outside light. Sometimes you wonder.
John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Very interesting! Thank you, Mario. :)Originally posted by Mario Carrandi:
Most importantly, forgot to add that David Copperfield had the Water Torture again restored with the wood and hardware from the period. Had the chance to spend sometime seeing the new restoration and David pointed out something very eerie, in one of the interior walls a clear silhoutte of Houdini's profile could be clearly seen shaped by the outside light. Sometimes you wonder.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
A postscript to Mario's message. As you know, after the fire at the Houdini Museum virtually destroyed the apparatus, Sid Radner had a reconstructed Water Torture Cell fashioned from the little bits and pieces remaining from the original apparatus. That WTC was subsequently bought by David Copperfield (see the January 2005 issue of Genii for a full report on that auction and the history of the WTC). At that time, the chamber looked absolutely pristine...like a piece of beautiful new furniture. It doesn't look like that any more. David -- as Mario notes -- had the apparatus renovated once again...replacing elements of the WTC with hundred year-old wood and metal and giving the cell an aged and distressed look...It certainly makes a striking display.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
I cannot help but paraphrase the old joke:
I had to replace all of the wood, the steel, and the glass; but it occupies the same space!
Dustin
PS: John Gaughan was on Visiting with Huell Howser (a PBS show) last night. They toured his shop. His WTC was shown, but the name Houdini was not mentioned at all. It was described as an old illusion.
I had to replace all of the wood, the steel, and the glass; but it occupies the same space!
Dustin
PS: John Gaughan was on Visiting with Huell Howser (a PBS show) last night. They toured his shop. His WTC was shown, but the name Houdini was not mentioned at all. It was described as an old illusion.
Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Anent Dustins paraphrase, I tend to like what David did with the WTC. Since virtually nothing survives of the original piece of apparatus, why not make it look old for an interesting display. Of course, it would be interesting to know in the coming millennia if records are lost and somehow Davids WTC comes to be regarded as the only surviving (albeit aged) WTC! Clay
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Here's a (possible) wrinkle to the replica story. When I visited the Houdini Historical Center in Appleton in Sept 1998, they told me they had a replica USD up in the archives. I asked why it wasn't on display and they said they had broken the handles off when they were moving it and needed to get them fixed. I'm not sure if they ever did display it or if this was the Gaughan replica...but if Sid (who was in town at this same time) only discovered the Gaughan copy in '03, this certainly couldn't have been the same one.
I didn't push for details, so I don't know if what they had has a working replica or even a full size one. But there you go.
I didn't push for details, so I don't know if what they had has a working replica or even a full size one. But there you go.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
GatorGas:
" didn't Hardeen have a protege' (not Radner) who ended up with much of his show equipment? I seem to remember a young fellow working with Hardeen and even filling in for him at times during his run in "Hellzapoppin'".
>>>>>>That was Douglas Geoffrey.
My understanding is that he performed as Hardeen's "Successor" for only a few years during the 1940's. I had never heard of him performing the WTC.
" didn't Hardeen have a protege' (not Radner) who ended up with much of his show equipment? I seem to remember a young fellow working with Hardeen and even filling in for him at times during his run in "Hellzapoppin'".
>>>>>>That was Douglas Geoffrey.
My understanding is that he performed as Hardeen's "Successor" for only a few years during the 1940's. I had never heard of him performing the WTC.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
It's not clear that the water torture cell David Copperfield has actually "works." The restored model that was sold at auction had not been filled with water. I do not know if David did so after he had it restored once again (which was actually the third time the cell had been rebuilt). In any case, the apparatus is certainly too small for David himself to ever use.Originally posted by zencat:
I didn't push for details, so I don't know if what they had has a working replica or even a full size one. But there you go.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Okay, here's something that I noticed just last night (I've been driving my poor girlfriend crazy with WTC talk, so I will instead drive my fellow Genii-ites crazy :p ).
Those four ringlets that extend out from the four corners near the top of the cell just below the stocks...clearly these are where the block and tackle attaches to hoist Houdini into the air. In photos, you can see Houdini hanging above the cell with ropes attached to these ringlets. There are no ringlets attached to the cell itself.
However, in examining the Radner cell, and, most critically, the burnt ruins in 1999, it's clear that the ringlets are built into this cell's superstructure.
So my question is, if this is a working cell, how can the ringlets be built into the cell when the purpose of these ringlets is to lift the stocks?
P.S. I always presumed that the ringlets and metal frame were attached to the stocks. But if they were, the stocks wouldn't be able to "scissor" open (if you look closely, the metal frame crosses over the bottom of the hinge). I concluded that the metal frame must be a stand-alone part. Houdini is scissored into the stocks, which are then placed inside this solid metal frame with ringlets. This serves to securely lift the stocks and Houdini up and over the cell. The stocks and metal frame are then dropped down over the lip of the cell and secured via the "flip-up" clasps. This is my theory, anyway.
Those four ringlets that extend out from the four corners near the top of the cell just below the stocks...clearly these are where the block and tackle attaches to hoist Houdini into the air. In photos, you can see Houdini hanging above the cell with ropes attached to these ringlets. There are no ringlets attached to the cell itself.
However, in examining the Radner cell, and, most critically, the burnt ruins in 1999, it's clear that the ringlets are built into this cell's superstructure.
So my question is, if this is a working cell, how can the ringlets be built into the cell when the purpose of these ringlets is to lift the stocks?
P.S. I always presumed that the ringlets and metal frame were attached to the stocks. But if they were, the stocks wouldn't be able to "scissor" open (if you look closely, the metal frame crosses over the bottom of the hinge). I concluded that the metal frame must be a stand-alone part. Houdini is scissored into the stocks, which are then placed inside this solid metal frame with ringlets. This serves to securely lift the stocks and Houdini up and over the cell. The stocks and metal frame are then dropped down over the lip of the cell and secured via the "flip-up" clasps. This is my theory, anyway.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
The rings or handles near the bottom, I believe, were valves to release the water from the tank after the performance.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Whoops! I see I said "base" of cell. Sorry. I corrected it.
I'm talking about the four ringlets in each corner near the TOP of the cell, base of the stocks.
I'm talking about the four ringlets in each corner near the TOP of the cell, base of the stocks.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
It is John Gaughn's belief that the WTC he restored was never actually used by Houdini. He said there was no evidence that it had ever held any water, and it doesn't match photos of the cells which were used.
There has never been more than one real cell--the museum des not have one.
There has never been more than one real cell--the museum des not have one.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Hmmm...I wonder if he's right. Those built-in ringlets trouble me. And while it's true the pics of Houdini in the cell make it look like a much larger cell (and the handles on the stocks seem further apart) there is a pic of him onstage in his full evening show with the WTC in the background and it looks a lot like the Radner cell--small, stock handles close together. Of course, in this pic, the cell is just sitting onstage with other props as a decorative background. Could that have been this cell's purpose? A purely decorative display cell? Or one that could be examined, and then the gaffed one would be switched out come time for the escape?Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
It is John Gaughn's belief that the WTC he restored was never actually used by Houdini. He said there was no evidence that it had ever held any water, and it doesn't match photos of the cells which were used.
There has never been more than one real cell--the museum des not have one.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
If the restored WTC never had water in it and there was only "one" ever made, something does not jive here. Was the restored version a duplicate (for lobby display) of the model which was actually used? Did Houdini use dry water so as not to damage the WTC? In any event, I do like the idea of making one for use as a bookcase. I can do that. Now where in my cramped shop could I put it?
For those interested, these sites might be of interest:
http://www.andywhitecreative.com/Houdini.html
http://www.cjh.org/about/news/view_arch ... ?newsid=49
http://www.americaslibrary.gov/cgi-bin/ ... ni/magic_2
http://members.tripod.com/~Houdinez/hou17.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/houdini/fi ... ndi10.html
http://www.magicgallery.com/images/HouWTCuk.jpg
http://www.akahoudini.org/htdocs/videol ... =audio.mp3
http://www.robertfellows.com/magic.htm
Jim
For those interested, these sites might be of interest:
http://www.andywhitecreative.com/Houdini.html
http://www.cjh.org/about/news/view_arch ... ?newsid=49
http://www.americaslibrary.gov/cgi-bin/ ... ni/magic_2
http://members.tripod.com/~Houdinez/hou17.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/houdini/fi ... ndi10.html
http://www.magicgallery.com/images/HouWTCuk.jpg
http://www.akahoudini.org/htdocs/videol ... =audio.mp3
http://www.robertfellows.com/magic.htm
Jim
Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Jim: By use of "real," I think Kaufman meant "used by Houdini." If the restored WTC recently purchased by Copperfield was never used by Houdini, then Richard's statement makes sense. It shows the extremely powerful pull of Houdini when someone will lay out big bucks for a bunch of burnt brass scrap which may or may not have been touched by Houdini. Clay
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
If memory serves, there have been several Cells made over the years. One for the Tony Curtis Houdini film (although I don't know if that was a set piece or if it actually worked), one for a Doug Henning TV special, and then there were at least one copiest of Houdini who had her own Water Torture Cell and was working it during his lifetime. What was her name? Miss Undina? Or something like that. I think her poster was in one of the books.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Houdini himself had a number of cells built over his lifetime, and they went through some structural evolution as he improved the apparatus and his presentation of the escape. Keep in mind that he performed the escape almost continuously from 1912 until the end of his life. However, it is believed that he had any previous cells destroyed (to protect his secrets) as he had replacements built. Miss Undina indeed had a WTC and Houdini himself had a WTC cell made for Miss Trixy, the escape artist who Houdini sponsored to compete with her. It is believed that Houdini eventually took possession of both these cells, though their ultimate fate remains unknown. Hardeen also had a number of additional WTC parts (which must have come from other versions) and had hoped to build another WTC with them as a base, but was never able to do so. (Houdini's cell was far too small for Hardeen to ever use). And yes, other modern performers -- and cinema and stage productions --have built their versions of the apparatus over the years as well though all of these differed in many respects from the actual Houdini apparatus. Regardless, the Hardeen-Radner-Copperfield Water Torture Cell remains the only upside down that can be traced back to Houdini.
By the way, an extra Water Torture Cell isn't something that one has sitting around unnoticed. It took five trunks and three crates weighing over 1600 pounds to hold the WTC and accompanying equipment that Hardeen shipped to Sid Radner.
As for the cell's original condition, that has been a matter of some controversy for a while. It should be noted, however, that it is said that Houdini kept the cell in pristine condition (the trunks used for its storage and transporation were very impressive), it was stored without any use or anyone seeing it (outside a few magicians who visited Sid Radner's mother's basement in Holyoke, Massachusetts) for almost five decades (the ceiling in the room was too low for the lid to even be removed), and that the cell was restored and refinished once before (in 1991) prior to it being rebuilt again after the 1995 fire.
Once again, let me suggest that those interested in these matters take a look at the January 2005 Genii. I think you'll find that these matters are explored in some detail.
By the way, an extra Water Torture Cell isn't something that one has sitting around unnoticed. It took five trunks and three crates weighing over 1600 pounds to hold the WTC and accompanying equipment that Hardeen shipped to Sid Radner.
As for the cell's original condition, that has been a matter of some controversy for a while. It should be noted, however, that it is said that Houdini kept the cell in pristine condition (the trunks used for its storage and transporation were very impressive), it was stored without any use or anyone seeing it (outside a few magicians who visited Sid Radner's mother's basement in Holyoke, Massachusetts) for almost five decades (the ceiling in the room was too low for the lid to even be removed), and that the cell was restored and refinished once before (in 1991) prior to it being rebuilt again after the 1995 fire.
Once again, let me suggest that those interested in these matters take a look at the January 2005 Genii. I think you'll find that these matters are explored in some detail.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
I didn't make myself clear when I wrote this:
"There has never been more than one real cell--the museum des not have one."
What I meant was, there is only one real cell of Houdini's extant today. Assuming you can call the bits that were put back together after the fire a real cell of Houdini's. Copperfield paid only $150,000 for it. Prior to the fire its value had been estimated at one million dollars. There are no other Water Torture Cells of Houdini's anyplace.
"There has never been more than one real cell--the museum des not have one."
What I meant was, there is only one real cell of Houdini's extant today. Assuming you can call the bits that were put back together after the fire a real cell of Houdini's. Copperfield paid only $150,000 for it. Prior to the fire its value had been estimated at one million dollars. There are no other Water Torture Cells of Houdini's anyplace.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Absolute fact.
However later this year we are putting out a Houdini Water Torture Cell limited edition collector's piece.
What was left from the original water torture cell after the fire, that could not be used in reconstruction of the original, will be mounted in a unique frame with a picture of Houdini performing with the water torture cell. There are actual pieces of glass, charred wood, etc. All authentic and will come with a Certificate of Authenticity.
However later this year we are putting out a Houdini Water Torture Cell limited edition collector's piece.
What was left from the original water torture cell after the fire, that could not be used in reconstruction of the original, will be mounted in a unique frame with a picture of Houdini performing with the water torture cell. There are actual pieces of glass, charred wood, etc. All authentic and will come with a Certificate of Authenticity.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
I have two questions. Did anyone tape the Huell Howser program with John Gaughan?
Jim Riser:
Jim Riser:
I can only imagine that's a joke, but in the context of your post, it does not read as a joke. What did you mean?Did Houdini use dry water so as not to damage the WTC?
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
"I bought some instant water one time but I didn't know what to add to it."Originally posted by John Lovick:
Jim Riser:
I can only imagine that's a joke, but in the context of your post, it does not read as a joke. What did you mean?Did Houdini use dry water so as not to damage the WTC?
--Steven Wright
Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Richard: What was the WTC that we photographed at Gaughan's? Henning's? I remember the guy in it having a problem?
Then there was one a Canadian guy did at FISM and the glass broke flooding the theater?
Then there was one a Canadian guy did at FISM and the glass broke flooding the theater?
Stay tooned.
Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
You can check with your vending machine friends to make sure, but I believe that soft water is preferred for any type of machinery as it doesn't leave any residue. Hard water, on the other hand, will corrode working parts in a machine that works with/by water and needs to be constantly cleaned.
Happy New Year to all,
Jack
Happy New Year to all,
Jack
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Hey, now there's something I would like to know. Where is the Henning cell? That special was one of the things that first got me into magic/Houdini, so that cell holds great meaning for me. I love to see it.Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Richard: What was the WTC that we photographed at Gaughan's? Henning's? I remember the guy in it having a problem?
BTW, I've posted my little WTC pictorial history here:
http://homepage.mac.com/zencato/houdini ... bum53.html
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Doug's was in the Museum of Magic and Illusion in Manitoba.
Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
I believe this is the same Huell Howser program with Gaughan that was mentioned. It seems to still be available for sale.
http://www.calgold.com/visiting/Default ... 0&Show=590
Best,
Chuck Romano
http://www.calgold.com/visiting/Default ... 0&Show=590
Best,
Chuck Romano
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Thanks, Michael.Originally posted by Michael Edwards:
Doug's was in the Museum of Magic and Illusion in Manitoba.
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Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
John Lovick
Member # 3340 posted January 06, 2006 10:11 AM
Jim Riser:
quote:
Did Houdini use dry water so as not to damage the WTC?
-------------------------------------------------I can only imagine that's a joke, but in the context of your post, it does not read as a joke. What did you mean?
John;
Yes, it was a joke in a weak attempt to "explain" how, if the surviving WTC showed no evidence of water damage, it could have been actually used by Houdini. Dry water is dehydrated water - the kind we have here in Tucson :cool:
zencat;
Thanks for posting all of the Houdini info - very nice :D
Jim
Member # 3340 posted January 06, 2006 10:11 AM
Jim Riser:
quote:
Did Houdini use dry water so as not to damage the WTC?
-------------------------------------------------I can only imagine that's a joke, but in the context of your post, it does not read as a joke. What did you mean?
John;
Yes, it was a joke in a weak attempt to "explain" how, if the surviving WTC showed no evidence of water damage, it could have been actually used by Houdini. Dry water is dehydrated water - the kind we have here in Tucson :cool:
zencat;
Thanks for posting all of the Houdini info - very nice :D
Jim
Re: Water Torture Cell replica controversy?
Although very litigious, Houdini couldn't sue everyone. Other performers, especially in Europe, started employing WTCs during Houdini's lifetime and, of course, after Houdini died. Perhaps some of the ones from ca.1920's survived.
If you look at the classic STEEN "Plays with Death"(The Man who laughs at Death)
2 sheeter litho ca. 1922 you can see the performer
being lowered into a WTC.
I can email a photo of same to anyone who wants it.
If you look at the classic STEEN "Plays with Death"(The Man who laughs at Death)
2 sheeter litho ca. 1922 you can see the performer
being lowered into a WTC.
I can email a photo of same to anyone who wants it.