Houdini's Height

Discuss the historical aspects of magic, including memories, or favorite stories.
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JohnCox
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby JohnCox » February 5th, 2011, 3:55 pm

houdini's ghost wrote:I think the article in which Okito talks about hearing Houdini and his mother speak to each other in a language Bamberg who was familiar with most European languages had never heard--I think he said it sounded almost Oriental--was in MUM, but, I'm not sure.

Interesting. I'd like to track that article down.
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby Kevin Connolly » February 5th, 2011, 3:59 pm

Thanks Richard! That's better than magic!
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby houdini's ghost » February 5th, 2011, 4:26 pm

Kevin,
I couldn't disagree more.
"With all he lacked as a man, husband and father"
Wow!
David,
Let's take a deeper look at the May 26, 1900 US Passport application. On that date Houdini appeared in person, with a witness, to apply for a Passport. He swore an oath of allegiance witnessed by Frederick C. Campbell. His witness, who attests that he knows the applicant and that he is who he says he is, is Leo Newman, who was either his uncle or his cousin--One of Bessie's older sisters married a Schonberger, the other married a Newman. (Moe Howard married one of the Newmans. His daughter Joan Maurer's great grandmother was Cecelia Steiner Weiss's sister).
Houdini says he arrived in the US on or about July 14, 1878.
On or about--finally, we get a little slack.
Ronald J. Hilgert and Benjamin Filene's terrific little book reveals from the ship's records that he arrived on the Hamburg-American steamship Frisia on July 3, 1878.
I wonder if the disparity comes from a lag time before the family was processed through Ellis Island?
His mother said, on arrival in America, he was three years old.
On the passport application, He gives his birthdate as April 6, 1873 AS PER THE CERTIFICATE OF NATURALIZATION AS SHOWN (the certificate of naturalization is based on Rabbi Weiss being granted citizenship and the date for that is noted as June 6, 1882).
All his underage children became citizens that day.
Someone thought back then that Ehrich was born in 1873. Whoever it was was wrong. Mrs. Weiss was mistaken when she said Ehrich was 3 in 1878.
There were no passport photos. I don't think Houdini wrote the description of himself. That had to have been done by an objective observer. That was a physical ID. That section had to have been written by a clerk. And the clerk made a mis-observation about the eyes.
There is a world of information in the Houdini passport applications. In this one, he appears to me to be doing his best to be accurate with the information he has.
Why he signed it after the clerk wrongly mis-identified the color of his eyes, I don't know. He might not have noticed the mistake. He wasn't trying to pretend his eyes were a different color from what they were.
That ID is how you cross borders and enter countries.
It was in Houdini's interest to be accurate.
Three months later, in London, when he surrendered that passport and applied for a new one, it was in somebody's interest for him to be deliberately deceptive.

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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby houdini's ghost » February 5th, 2011, 4:44 pm

And, David, what was that you said about the fact that Houdini's mother always wrote to him on April 6 doesn't prove she actually thought that was his birthday?
When you read the letter, it is absolutely clear that Houdini is saying she did believe his birthday was April 6.
I don't have it in front of me but it says something like "Re the birthday. I shall always celebrate mine April 6. Mother always wrote me on that date."
What did she always write him on that date for? To tell him to have a nice day?
Now, I have seen threads on the Okito dynasty, here's a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamberg_Magical_Dynasty
http://www.geniimagazine.com/magicpedia ... rt_Bamberg

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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby Edward » February 5th, 2011, 5:28 pm

Does anyone here know that Houdini used Handcuff as his middle name?

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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby houdini's ghost » February 5th, 2011, 6:58 pm

He had tried and failed to patent his handcuff act. All kinds of people were stealing his act and calling themselves "Handcuff Kings," so he tried to make the link between himself and the handcuff act indelible by legally changing his name to Harry Handcuff Houdini.

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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby JohnCox » February 5th, 2011, 7:11 pm

He wrote "Harry Handcuff Houdini" on his draft card. Maybe he was hoping they'd think he was nuts. :p
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby houdini's ghost » February 5th, 2011, 7:20 pm

He had to sign it Harry Handcuff Houdini--it was his legal name.

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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby David Byron » February 5th, 2011, 8:33 pm

houdini's ghost wrote:And, David, what was that you said about the fact that Houdini's mother always wrote to him on April 6 doesn't prove she actually thought that was his birthday?
When you read the letter, it is absolutely clear that Houdini is saying she did believe his birthday was April 6.
I don't have it in front of me but it says something like "Re the birthday. I shall always celebrate mine April 6. Mother always wrote me on that date."
What did she always write him on that date for? To tell him to have a nice day?


If you mean the one in Gibson, Original Houdini Scrapbook, p. 174, it says:
Re the Birthdays, I shall celebrate mine? always APRIL 6th.

It hurts me to think I cant talkit over with Darling Mother and as SHE always wrote me on April 6th, that will be my adopted birthdate.

Now, perhaps this means that CSW believed that this was his birthday. But perhaps this means that, whatever she believed/knew, she chose to observe his birthday on this day.

If she truly believed 06 April to be correct, it's rather difficult to account for the existence of documents that precede this letter (from 22 Nov 1913) and use a March birthday. And yet, there they are.

I also find it a bit difficult to believe, though not impossible, that a mother would be off by a year regarding when her child was born-- especially when the memory was fresh.

Perhaps she was simply unusually ill suited to telling one year or one month from another, but I'm not aware of any independent reason to think this of her. So I infer that something else must be in play.

Yes, she observed his birthday in April. Whether this was a matter of her belief or her choice is unclear to me.

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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby houdini's ghost » February 5th, 2011, 10:12 pm

What documents that predate the 22 Nov 1913 letter to Hardeen could have hipped Mrs. Weiss to the right date?

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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby David Byron » February 6th, 2011, 5:07 pm

My mistake. I thought I heard the whisper of an earlier reference, but can't chase down the phantom. So I herewith embrace the date-confuddled Ma cohort.

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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby David Byron » March 6th, 2012, 1:58 pm

According to the Smithsonian Institution's physical anthropologist, Ale Hrdlička, Houdini (just shy of his 52nd birthday)

was 165.8 cm (5' 5.276") tall, with
a wingspan of 172.8 cm,
medium blue eyes with brown flecks around the pupils,
black hair (graying),
a resting pulse of 72+,
very asymmetrical grip strength,
awful back teeth, and
prehensile toes.

I guess that's the best info we'll ever have on Houdini's height!

See http://siarchives.si.edu/blog/harry-houdini-escapes-smithsonian-ii-magic-numbers (posted by Christopher Heaney, 02 February 2012, at my request.)

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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby JohnCox » March 6th, 2012, 6:27 pm

Oh, my, I had missed this. Thanks, David.

Where do you see "black" teeth? I see his rear upper teeth are in poor condition. Does that bottom bit refer to them being "black"? I see the word "backwards".
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby Joe Pecore » March 6th, 2012, 6:48 pm

John, where do you see David writing "black" teeth?
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby David Byron » March 6th, 2012, 7:17 pm

Back teeth, John. Back teeth.

Don't you speak Southern? :)

From the 50% grip strength in the left hand, it appears that the broken wrist continued to give him trouble for years.

(Also: Ale Hrdlička is how that name should've come out.)

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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby JohnCox » March 6th, 2012, 7:50 pm

Oh my gosh, what's wrong me... BACK teeth. I see it now. :)
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby JohnCox » March 7th, 2012, 1:40 pm

David Byron wrote:was 165.8 cm (5' 5.276") tall, with
a wingspan of 172.8 cm...


Can this be correct? His armspan is wider than he is tall?
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby JohnCox » March 7th, 2012, 2:23 pm

BTW, I love that this proves he was indeed 5' 5". People have been trying to shrink Houdini over the years. But this shows he was 5' 5" as he and all the early bios said.
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 7th, 2012, 2:45 pm

If Thurston was indeed 5'6", then there's just no way Houdini could have been only 1 inch shorter. At least not from the evidence I've seen in photos of them.
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby JohnCox » March 7th, 2012, 3:02 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:If Thurston was indeed 5'6", then there's just no way Houdini could have been only 1 inch shorter. At least not from the evidence I've seen in photos of them.

What photos are you talking about, Richard? There are the portrait shots of both men, but those are from the waist up and HH does look about an inch shorter. There's also a shot of them sitting together on steps. I can't recall any photo of Houdini and Thurston where you can gauge their respective height in a direct comparison. But maybe I'm just not recalling them?
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 7th, 2012, 3:05 pm

Photos I think I've seen. Can't recall more than that.
Do we know how tall T. Nelson Downs was? There's that photo of Houdini standing next to Downs, but up on his tiptoes so he doesn't look so short.
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby JohnCox » March 7th, 2012, 3:08 pm

Here's the famous pic. That could be an inch. Also might depend on what kind of shoes they are wearing.
Image

But for me this Smithsonian doctor's report is pretty darn good evidence that Houdini was indeed 5' 5". The whole point of this report was to make precise measurements.

BTW, a huge thanks to David for getting them to publish this.
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 7th, 2012, 3:49 pm

Looks more like two inches to me.
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby Richard Hatch » March 7th, 2012, 4:04 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Looks more like two inches to me.

Wonder if Thurston's hairdo could explain the extra inch? Their mouths, noses and eyes seem less apart than the tops of the heads as measured by their hair height. Houdini's hair seems pretty much pressed against his skull, while Thurston's puffs up more...

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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby David Byron » March 7th, 2012, 4:08 pm

Let's not discount Thurston's interest in levitation....

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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby Kevin Connolly » March 7th, 2012, 5:01 pm

The photo with Downs, as I remember it, was taken on a slope. Houdini most likely knew of the angle of the photograph, since he was hamming-it-up for the camera. I think that "Houdini didn't want to appear short" was from Christopher and his line of thinking.

The photo above might not be the one to judge their heights, as one or both, may be wearing lifts.
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby Kevin Connolly » March 7th, 2012, 5:08 pm

Here's Houdini with three other magicians, including Downs.

http://houdinihimself.com/?p=3210

Now it should be clear as mud. :)
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 7th, 2012, 5:09 pm

Houdini's on his tiptoes there.
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Re: Houdini's Height

Postby houdini's ghost » March 7th, 2012, 9:51 pm

Excellent work by David Byron.
In the Christopher book, Milbourne showed the cropped photo of Houdini and Downs and said in the caption, "Houdini was not aware he was being photographed from head to toe"--or words to that effect. Only when Houdini published that photo himself in MUM, they are both shown full length and Houdini is standing on tiptoes and resting a forearm on Down's shoulder.
As for Houdini and Thurston--could have been that Thurston was wearing his lifts and Houdini wasn't.
I think that Houdini gained that extra inch at the Smithsonian by straightening out his bowed legs and stretching.
I think he was 5'4" as he stated on his first passport application. I saw a friend stretch himself (by straightening out his entire frame) about three inches.
And then there was Clarence Willard!


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