WHY THE GENERAL INDIFFERENCE TO MAGIC HISTORY?

[Guest]

Originally posted by Kevin Connolly:

Originally posted by mai-ling:
[b] magicians who perform have no regard,
and don't care about the past....

Off the top my head, Kellar, Houdini and Copperfield all/are interested in magic history. They were/are on the top of their field in their eras and still showed interest in magic history. [/b]

I wasn't clear when I wrote that.
Too early in the morning for when I
was thinking that. I type too fast
and when I think of things, i forget
the point of what I'm writing...


ANYWWAY!

I was thinking about the younger
magicians of today.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:

Originally posted by Stepanov Oleg:
[b] ...are not really interested in magic history, or dont agree about the important place of magic historians, etc"

[/b]

Dear Mr. Jonathan Townsend. It was not my words. It was just quoting from first message. This is such variant of sarcasm. Apologize for my bad English.

[Guest]

Oleg:

I admire you for participating using your non-native language.

You are correct. Those who have contributed to this thread seem to agree that magic history is an important part of our art. In a way, this is not surprising.

I tend to think that very few magicians would aggressively argue that magic history is not important, etc., and thus the reason why I used the word indifferent when titling this thread.

Magicians who are not students of magic history probably just dont see how it is relevant to them.

Clay

[Guest]

Dear Mr. Magicam.
Thanks for your respecting.
Until you do this I will try to help you because time after you can stop respect me. :-)

I understand why you use special word. You try use psychology to get information. But you still get not what you want. And I know how to change question to receive answer what you need. :-)

But first we should understand really what you want to know?
Yes, I am Russian. I should be polite here and I newer ask question "Why Americans interesting only American history of magic?" This is wrong question. I will try told with you on "indifferent" field. This is Russia. So, let suppose I use titled question on Russian Magician's Forum. Let suppose I get answer from Mr. Ponomaryov. This is respectable man. This man wrote books about history of magic. Of course, he interesting history. He read books of Kartashkin and Vadimov. He know that first inventor of "Sawing Woman on Half" was Torrini (he wrote it on his book). He know that first inventor of Okito Ball (looks at this picture from his book
http://stepanov.lk.net/magic/ponomary/39.gif ) was Nina Zubal, who demonstrate it on 1834 in Germany. He know Kempelen use Ezhi Wronsky inside Turk Automaton to play with Ekaterina II and won. So, this is very much informed man, and he can participate on my discussion and explain me, why peoples, not me and not him, so bad interesting history of magic. I repeat, I am Russian and I should be polite here. But Ponomaryon not American and I can tell all what I think about him. So, I do not want ask him "Why peoples not interesting history of magic?", I want ask him "Why YOU so stupid and absolutely not interesting history of magic?"

I can be not correct, but I suppose there are no such peoples who not interesting history. There are just different levels of this. Some of peoples watch "The Illusionist" and "The Prestige" and this is enough to believe "I am interesting on history".

So, my suggestion. If you want to know "Why the general indifference to magic history?" you should really ask "Why the general indifference to MORE HIGH LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE of magic history?" And you can answer by yourself. I hope this is will be more honest answer than you can hear.
I hope you understand I do not want say anything wrong about you. I am absolutely do not know who are you and absolutely there are no reason to me suppose that you do not interesting history of magic. This is just psychological trick (oriental method) - if you do not get answer, ask yourself and try understand why you do not want answering.

If your brain do not like abstract and prefer more concrete I will try give you example. Do you know mr. Todd Karr? Nobody can say this man do not interesting history. Everybody know how much he do for this. His Illusionata - most terrific source about history what I ever watch on Internet. The books what he print - most important to our subject. Please, do you know his "Essential Robert-Houdin" http://www.miraclefactory.net/essential.htm ? Unfortunately I have no this book. I looks only contents. Is it true he use shorted translation by Lascelles Wraxall, so without XVII chapter? I ask it because this chapter should be very much interesting to Americans - there are ONLY ONE AMERICAN MAGICIAN in full book. BTW, like man who interesting history - do you know who is this man? (Apologize, of course you should know... This is just rhetoric question.) Next. If I understand he use "Abridged" translation of "Card-Sharping Exposed". Do you know what it means: Abridged translation of Forster or he means that Forster's translation shorter than Smithson's translation? And last. When will be full translating of Rober-Houdin books on English? I mean with story about father of Robert-Houdin and soufflet, articles inside Cagliostro, poetry, names of first teacher, man who give wrong book, assistant of Comte...

Please. I do not want to say I am really interesting magic history but another peoples not. My knowledge very much limited like my interests. I just want show - all peoples has different levels. Peoples who like books 50 years ago now prefer DVD. Just another level.

Apologize if my opinion not help or not interesting. Apologize for my bad English. I write this long message only because interesting this question. I know how difficult read big messages from peoples which native language not yours. I read Genii Forum every days.

[Guest]

Dear Oleg,

Thank you for your thoughtful post. Again, I admire your efforts on this forum and your obvious interest in all things related to magic history, something that we United States collectors and history buffs should observe, appreciate and try to follow.

Unfortunately, because of the language barrier, I probably dont fully understand your primary opinions, and this I deeply regret because you obviously took much time and care with your post. But I will try to respond to what I think are your principal comments in basic English.

I did not really use psychology to get information. I believe my questions were direct and easily understood. On internet forums, questions are sometimes not answered directly. People sometimes talk about other things. Sometimes this is a good thing, other times it is frustrating.

Please ask Mr. Ponomaryov if he thinks that most magicians know much about magic history. If he says nyet, then please ask him why is this? If Mr. Ponomaryov has written books on magic history, I would like to purchase them. Can you help me to purchase them? Maybe I can purchase something here that you would like and you could purchase the Russian books for me?

I agree that for some magicians, there are different levels of interest in magic history. But I also think that some magicians have no interest in magic history, and based on what has been written here on Genii Forum, other people agree.

Like you, I am a student of magic history in all cultures. My reference library probably contains nearly 2,000 volumes, all on magic history, biography and bibliography, and covers over 12 languages. I have very few trick books. Unfortunately, for most of the foreign languages, I can only look at the pictures! :( But I do try to learn something from every book I own.

I have my own opinions about the questions I asked here, but I started this discussion because I wanted to hear the opinions of others. Thank you for telling us your thoughts, and Im sorry if I have not understood your comments.

Clay

P.S. I would very much like to make friendships with Russian magic historians and learn more about Russian magic history. Do you have a Russian internet group for magic history and does anybody else in your group speak English?

[Guest]

Dear Mr. Magicam.
This is most sexual message what I get on last year. :-) Thanks for your interest. I will be happy help you to get all books.
This is absolutely not money problem, but we still have couple of them.
1. I do not know about old books. First Russian book about history was written by Oznobishin on 1929, and I do not know is it possible send such old books.
http://stepanov.lk.net/magic/oznobish/oznobish.html
Really this is very bad interpretation of Hoidini's "Unmasking of Robert-Houdin", what you can recognize by pictures. But, without language you can not realize that 6 pictures has wrong notes. On text looks like Oznobishin use your method - just watch pictures.
2. Russian post not American post. Half year ago my friend from USA send me some of books, but I still do not get them. I do not suppose it was American post problem, but Russian part of this trip will be "mysterious" for you.

If you ready to try solve such problems, we can go to next level. My e-mail olegstepanov@mail.ru and, if I understand well, next communication (your address) should be on private.

I invite you on my page. http://stepanov.lk.net/magic/magbooks.html
First two books where you see "250" is Hoffmann's "Modern Magic" without name of Hoffmann but Eliseenko instead. Last two - great books by Ponomaryov:
"Mysteries of Famous Magicians", 2006
http://stepanov.lk.net/magic/ponomary/houdin.html
and "Best book of Famous Tricks", 2007
http://stepanov.lk.net/magic/ponomar/gurido.html

To get both books will be easy. If you interesting another books we can told about it time after.

About Russian historians. You supposition that here a lot of historian, who know magic, have Internet and speak English very much pleasantly. Thanks that you so high think about my country. Unfortunately I can suggest you only myself. Problem with my English that on real life on Russian I use complicated sentences what difficult translate (I never study English, just one week before World Championship in New York on 1991). But you always can write me "Oleg, stop try looks clever, use basic English".

[Kevin Connolly]

Stepanov ,

Do you have the Ken Silverman book on Houdini in Russian? I know I ordered mine from your country and it arrived in about two weeks after I sent payment.

I have a few things from Russia when Houdini appeared there in 1903. One piece is his pitchbook. I think the title is Harry Houdini - King Of Chains. I have a translation of it. From what I heard, the type of Russian language that it is written in, is no longer used. Is this true?

Kevin

[Guest]

Originally posted by Kevin Connolly:
Stepanov,
Do you have the Ken Silverman book on Houdini in Russian?

Yes. Last week I OCR it for myself.

I know I ordered mine from your country and it arrived in about two weeks after I sent payment.

Now this book possible buy on 150 roubles - 6$.

I have a few things from Russia when Houdini appeared there in 1903. One piece is his pitchbook. I think the title is Harry Houdini - King Of Chains.

On silverman's book there are page (from magazine "alarm clock") written: "On presentations near 'Yar' Garri Hudini, 'king of chairs and loocks'"

I have a translation of it. From what I heard, the type of Russian language that it is written in, is no longer used. Is this true?
Kevin

:-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I do not know how answering. Old language always not same like modern on every country. May be you mean that some of letters disappeared from that time. May be you hear that peoples what goes from Russia after Revolution do not change language but we still change it...

BTW. Translation - super. On one page "Houdini like meet with colored peoples". In Russian it means he like meet with afro-americans and asiats. "Nelson Downs was famous by his hands" - instead "was good on palming". "Houdini like wave by cards" - instead "Houdini like made passes"... Under communists translators was more correct. On bad translation you can go to prison. Now - fredom. Everybody translate like wish.

[Kevin Connolly]

If you have any Houdini material for sale, please let me know by e-mail. I can send money or the magic history books you want.

Kevin

[Guest]

Unless you're trying to get some rare Houdini Russian material for chump change, you're nuts risking good money in the Russian postal system. Did you not read what our friend in Russia had to say about the mails there?

But we digress ...

[Kevin Connolly]

Yes Clay, I did read it. Did you read my post?

:p

[Guest]

Yes. Russian post it is something special. Of course, time to time it work. My friend from England sent me "Memoirs" of Zerah Colborn 1833 and I get it. But two previous post I did not get.

So I suppose better use it on cheap books.

[Kevin Connolly]

Stepanov,


Do you have Houdini material from your country? From when he appeared there?

Kevin

[Guest]

Unfortunately no.
All information what we have about Russian visit Houdini from foreign books. I looks Houdini magazine. He wrote about Russian friend Mr. Bolin. Unfortunately nobody here know about this magician.

If you wish I can ask tomorrow most famous Russian collector Eygeny Yakovlivich Prokopov (now I call but he do not answer). He do not know foreighn languages, but he has museum of history of Russian magic. He is friend of President of MKF (Moscow Magic Club) and on every high conferences he present his stuffs.

[Kevin Connolly]

Sure. See what he has in his collection.

I'm sure that some material had to survive. Somewhere, someone has Houdini material over by you.

[Guest]

The reality is that many, maybe most, people don't know or care about stuff from the past, magic or otherwise, while there are others who are attracted to it.
TV networks/stations know B/W images will drive younger viewers away. ("Why do you want to watch that, it's OLD?!")
A producer of programs for The History Channel was told they want younger spokespeople, on programs about WWII, to attract younger viewers.(!)
A friend, who teaches at The Musician's Institute in Hollywood, says for them, Hall and Oates or Bruce Springsteen, are old history for them.
I remember talking to some twenty-something rockers about famous groups of the 60's and 70's, and may as well have been talking about Jolson or Cantor.
So accept/celebrate we are a selectively smaller group who enjoy going to Collectors Weekends or The Conference in Los Angeles.

[Charles McCall]

Diego, in support of your most recent post, see today's "Zits" comic strip in the daily papers.

[Guest]

Part of what Diego originally posted:
The reality is that many, maybe most, people don't know or care about stuff from the past, magic or otherwise, while there are others who are attracted to it.... So accept/celebrate we are a selectively smaller group who enjoy going to Collectors Weekends or The Conference in Los Angeles.

Alas, in the final analysis, I must agree with Diego.

But I remain the optimist. To the extent theres any life left in this thread, Id be grateful to those of you who are inclined to consider and respond to the questions in my original post.

CHS

[Guest]

Originally posted by Magicam:
...inclined to consider and respond to the questions in my original post.

Would you rephrase your question in terms of your objectives?

[Guest]

Jonathan:

Mea culpa if my objectives arent clear from my original questions. I can simply only repeat my core query:

What concepts or kinds of information would need to be communicated to prompt more performers to take a more active interest in magic history (or at least to appreciate that some knowledge of magic history is important), or to conclude that magic historians play a vital role in the health of our art?

Clay

[Guest]

Originally posted by Magicam:
"What concepts or kinds of information would need to be communicated to prompt more performers to take a more active interest in magic history (or at least to appreciate that some knowledge of magic history is important), or to conclude that magic historians play a vital role in the health of our art?"

1. Give impactful examples not just of magic mysteries finally solved over the years, and some of the current topics being pursued (we still don't know who wrote the most famous card book...), but the legendary anecdotes as well (funny, shocking, the rivalries, the relationships, the torch being passed; A "card trick" from 100 years ago JUST fooled the best minds in magic...)--i.e., convey the idea that it's not all stodgy research, but new information is always coming to light...It's an interesting, inspiring if not exciting, zazzy field--perhaps Mr. Kalush and his Research Center could cite specific, nutty examples that would impress even the most jaded...I also believe that glamorous movies like "The Illusionist" definitely help people imagine what it was like in the past as opposed to assigning reading...

2. Hint at or expose people to the idea of the untold riches waiting to be discovered if they ARE willing to read.

3. Try to convey the idea that even the old material still kills...cite examples of really old tricks still currently performed by hip dudes, (maybe perform a good coins across and then quote the excellent olde language where it first appeared in print 400 years ago, "Making a tester flye acrosse invisiblie")...
As Abe Lincoln said (paraphrase), "Books serve to show you that those original thoughts of yours aren't so original after all".

4. Cite examples of guys who absolutely are among the best of the best, who have obvious understanding and appreciation of the depth of history, and whose work is unrivaled because of that knowledge and appeciation--David Ben, Steve Cohen, Max Maven, Ricky Jay--stellar, inspiring--thoroughly "modern"--proofs of the power of vast knowledge.

Get quotes even from ultra-hipsters like Blaine and Angel describing how important their magic educations have been. We stand on the shoulders of giants, and whatever else, even those chaps certainly pay homage to the past.

All you can do is enthusiastically present the best of what you know.

Some will love you: :o

Some will hate you: :p

But THAT'S not the issue... ;)

[Guest]

Dave,

My sincere thanks. While (as you correctly observe) some may not agree with such approach(es) - or may believe that my hopes/goals are futile - yours is the kind of input I hoped for in starting this thread. That said, all of those (including our Russian colleague) who have kindly posted to this thread have IMO provided valuable food for thought, and I hope that other will contribute additional comments.

Thanks again!

Clay

[Philippe Billot]

Sooner or later, even the less interested magician, regarding Magic History, asks a question about the origin of a trick or sleight.
The common question is : Who invented the double lift ?

It's for that we have created a site in which we "try" to present chronologically what happens with a theme or a sleight.

At the begining, we had 400 persons by month and actually between 4000 and 7000 as we presented at least one or two articles by week.

But the more curious (and funny) thing is that in the other french forums, we are seldom quoted or solicited.

And the kind of request we have is :

I know and I have all these references about this trick or sleight but I have no time to make an article myself. May I copy your article for my DVD ?

Aside from that, I think it's long and difficult to study Magic History and needs a lot of money. Perhaps it's also for that only few peoples are really interested in Magic History.

As usual, sorry for my schoolish english.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Magicam:
Jonathan:

Mea culpa if my objectives arent clear from my original questions. I can simply only repeat my core query:

[b] What concepts or kinds of information would need to be communicated to prompt more performers to take a more active interest in magic history (or at least to appreciate that some knowledge of magic history is important), or to conclude that magic historians play a vital role in the health of our art?

Clay [/b]

Here is a short list explicitly stated (sorry to see Borges, Gaiman et al did not suffice earlier - my bad)

An objective might be to communicate without distracting the would-be customer for this service with:

the self (author)
the readers presumed lack of knowledge
the presumed significance of the data to the reader
the readers presumed background and beliefs

Another applicable concept would be that of relevance - How specifically does this data pertain to the world in which they live?

Then we get to the character of the communication itself - how to present the data in a way which is demonstrably useful (already did relevant) to the student without pandering to pre-existing yet nonconstructive interests in our craft. For example, what possible use is it to explain a tricks base methodology while leaving out a discussion of the implementation and performance related issues? Surely such only grates on the student's credulity and all but forces the student to reframe the author as one who wishes to browbeat or show off rather then educate.

A list of suggestions could go on but as mentioned earlier by others including Jules Henry and Ms Charlotte Iserbyt - a discussion of rhetorical technique is likely far less than useful at this time.

Or as might be posted at the cafe:

About YOU - bad. About THEM - worse.

About stuff that THEY can USE to do BETTER - hopeful. :)

[Guest]

Whatever lack of greater interest in magic history there is, it is not the fault of magic magazines or organizations. All of the major magazines, regulary feature articles of historical interest and the organizations often reference/note those who came before.

I couldn't believe if I recently heard correctly: That the Milo and Rogers autobiography, has sold less than 1,000 copies, when it is the most MARVELOUS read ever.
I have given copies to those who don't care about/like magic, and were entralled by it.
It has always been my belief, that if it was published by a mainstream publisher, it could be a national bestseller.

QUOTE: "Diego, I as a young kid, in the magic club, I said I never wanted to be one of those "old" guys, who talked about members/magicians I never met or heard about, and now, hear I am!"

[Guest]

Originally posted by Diego Domingo:
Whatever lack of greater interest in magic history there is, it is not the fault of magic magazines or organizations. ...

Unfortunately I have to disagree about that and cite the reasons made explicit above.

Is there really a pony under there?

[Guest]

Part of something written by JT:
I ... cite the reasons made explicit above.

My physics professor often said that precision and accuracy are two very different concepts.

[We now return to the Land O' Less Obtuse]

I'm sorry to say, Jonathan, that I have no clue what you are saying or trying to say.

Clay

[Guest]

Originally posted by Magicam:
...that I have no clue what you are saying or trying to say.

Clay

Clay, we are likely on the same side. Sure the "converted or choir" will want history in some form - we covered that way up top - but what about the rest of the market?

Rhetorical question: What distinguishes history from trivia?

IMHO, when history is presented with a presupposition that the reader should be of the opinion that it and its offering is important- rather than with context and format appropriate to its intended audience (not the choir- not the converted - the rest please) the offerings are not so likely to reach those who might gain the most from the education.

Rhetorical answers for the literate (phrased as a questions to keep this in lite humor) - Has Swift's The Battle of the Books been won by TV Guide and Entertainment Weekly? Has My Weekly Reader turned two generations away from nontrivial reading?

Anyone else here read Ms. Iserbyt\'s book or seen the video interviews with her?

On precision versus accuracy - for those who don't know the difference.

And thanks, that's a great example of what distinguishes the current audience for history - the inquisitiveness and confidence in the process yeilding a reward of knowlege - that has been taught out of our culture this last few generations.

[Dustin Stinett]

I find myself having to push Jonathans confusing posts aside as my head is still awash in knowledge garnered from viewing many magic DVDs over the last several days (for review). Interestingly, some of theseas well as many I have watched during my career as a reviewerare, in my opinion, fine examples of what happens when a study of history is neglected by a performer. (And in this case, Im just speaking about the historic record of methodologya small but no less important facet of the whole history of our craft.)

But we already believe all that, dont we? We believe we understand the importance of history and how it can enhance ones ability to learn and perform magic. A music teacher makes their students learn the classics for a reason.

But none of the above has a thing to do with Clays question. His question presupposes that these things that we know and believe are false. He wants to hear from those who agree with the notion that history is unnecessary and/or boring. Hearing from those who disagree and only have an opinion as to why they think that those who are indifferent to history and historians are so isnt really all that helpful. I suspect Clay already has his own thoughts about that.

I also suspect that those who feel as such will not post out of fear of being publicly chastised here. They might not even answer offline out of fear of being seen as ignorant by Clay (and I mean the vulgar definition of ignorant: stupid). I know from past conversations with Clay that this would not happen. Clay is a highly inquisitive individual. His goalI believeis to learn from those who feel that knowledge of history is immaterial to the performance of modern magic. With that informationinformation only someone who is actually indifferent about magic history can provideClay would then work toward making the subject more palatable to these people.

Making history come alive for someone who simply doesnt care is not an easy task; but its not impossible. But to learn how to do it, we must first learn why some people see history as dead.

Im sorry I cannot answer your question Clay. As you well know, history is a part of my life and as such, it lives.

Dustin

[Guest]

Originally posted by DustinStinett:
...He wants to hear from those who agree with the notion that history is unnecessary and/or boring. ...I also suspect that those who feel as such will not post out of fear of being publicly chastised here....to learn from those who feel that knowledge of history is immaterial to the performance of modern magic. With that informationinformation only someone who is actually indifferent about magic history can provideClay would then work toward making the subject more palatable to these people.

Making history come alive for someone who simply doesnt care is not an easy task; but its not impossible. But to learn how to do it, we must first learn why some people see history as dead....

How about taking it for granted that to reach an audience you must be relevant, pertinant and even for children - congruent. What specifically do you want them to believe and what would you like them to accept from you? Given that - what would you like to say to them?

Offering "history" as fluff and fetish simply does not work for real people.

Compare Plutarch's Lives to I Claudius - the latter is more fleshed out and relatable even though less provably accurate right? Something about sex and intreague in ancient times helped make all that historically accurate background to life for audiences.

Do we really need folks to state directly that hundred year old stories about guys dressing in asian-drag while allegorically flaunting some social taboos of the time seems somehow lacking in utility and relavance?

BTW Confusion is a good place to start. It helps folks know that they are unprepared to look at a thing. The question though is whether they wish to learn. Most prefer not - as evidenced by the lack of reading even when spoon-fed.

Okay it can be fun to go on ignoring the obvious - elephant sized obvious - and maybe wonder where the peanuts are going. ;) Or to decry the loss of buggy whips and somehow miss that they are just sold in different shops for a different use today.

[Dustin Stinett]

And so it continues...

[Guest]

Originally posted by Kevin Connolly:
Sure. See what he has in his collection.

I'm sure that some material had to survive. Somewhere, someone has Houdini material over by you.

Yesterday Yevgeny Yakovlivich slipped (he is ill) and he connected with me only today.

He confirm my information. There are no any matherials about visit of Harry Houdiny on Russia in 1903. Unfortunately his level so hign on this subject and he so much closed with highest Russian magicians, museum workers and collectors, that we can suppose there are no stuffs from visit of Houdini in Russia. Most famous thing - "Houdini's handcuffs", but this is just handcuffs what Vadimov get on Germany where he study magic on Conradi-Horsten Academy on 20th. It is "handcuffs with Houdini's secret" made by Conradi-Horsten firm. Now, after death of Vadimov, that handcuffs on collection of Eugeny Yakovlivich.

Apologize if this information not good.

[Guest]

I've long believed that the famous "escape" that Houdini did in Russia never happened. I think he came into the country and did a run of the mill vaudeville tour and left. The "escape" from the Siberian Transport Van was a story he cooked up that sounded great and added to his legend.

There was almost no international press at the time and little to no way of determining that it really happened...and if the Russians claimed it was a lie, who would have believed them at the time?

Smart guy that Houdini.

[Guest]

David's post makes a good illustration of a reason some people may not like to delve into history: they hate seeing their sacred cows punctured...they can't deal with the discomfort of learning that what they always thought they knew wasn't so glamorous or true at all...

If Houdini didn't escape by prying up the lead floor in the transport vehicle (isn't that right?) then I will be bummed.

But that won't scare me away from the REST of "history"...

Dustin, as ALWAYS is the voice of reason--the people who WOULD help Mr. Tustin the most, are obviously the people who have absolutely no interest in history, were secure in that, and could eloquently explain why.

In trying to imagine what a conversation with such a person would be like, it becomes excruciating, because you want to pop them after only about 3 or 4 sentences:

Joe: "I have no interest in nor need for knowing history".

Moe: "You're not even the slightest bit curious about even important, relevant things like Pearl Harbor, the Declaration of Independence, or the struggle for Civil Rights?"

Joe: "Pshaw--who needs to know worthless b.s. like that?"

Moe: [bashes Joe with whatever happens to be at hand, a la Jason Bourne/Krav Maga.] "IDIOT!"

[Now THERE'S a good reason why I could never be a high school teacher...]

[Guest]

Originally posted by castawaydave:
...
Joe: "Pshaw--who needs to know worthless b.s. like that?"...

Or risk a repeat of all that mind numbing experience from school where you were tested on things like the name of the ship where Francis Scott Key was arrested just before he penned the words to "the star spangled banner" - and maybe also the name of the traditional drinking song and its words too. American history - important (to Americans - supposedly) :)

Yeah, you don't know do you? The ship name starts with a "T". Anyone... Anyone... Bueller?

Now don't you want to know? Come on - history doesn't bite.

No?

Gee- why not?

Does all this start to sound familiar now? And what are historians willing to offer to bring relevance, utility and pertinence to the disillusioned and historically abused student?

[Guest]

[understanding that someday the same message may be directed at me ...]

Some of what J. Townsend wrote:
IMHO, when history is presented with a presupposition that the reader should be of the opinion that it and its offering is important- rather than with context and format appropriate to its intended audience (not the choir- not the converted - the rest please) the offerings are not so likely to reach those who might gain the most from the education.

JT, you have successfully paraphrased much of the key premise in my first post. With the substance of your paraphrase in mind, have you asked yourself if your posts on this thread presuppose an interest in certain concepts youve espoused, Swift, et al., and are important/relevant in the context of this thread? Have you responded on point to those who have expressed clear interest in what you have written?

Have you thoughtfully crafted your words in an effort to reach your audience?

Who is your audience?

At some point, like all threads, this one will die. Jonathan, I am asking you to let it die with dignity, not with the penultimate images herein being of imaginary and incomprehensible elephants and wondering where the peanuts are going. Etc.

And for those who would like to offer their concrete and pragmatic thoughts to my original query, I would be most grateful to hear from you. This topic is somewhat important, IMHO, and the more we hear from folks who have given it some thought, the better. And, as Dustin suggested, I do hope to use this valuable input in a productive manner.

Thanks to all.

CHS

[Guest]

This from Dan Magyari, posted with his permission:


Some thoughts on magic history.

Who are the current teachers of magic history? The folks on this thread that are interested and see value in it should be right up there at the top of the list (if not here, where?). McBrides classes - anyone here attended one of his classes recently - how much history is discussed (esp. as it pertains to each individual performer)? Folks like Carney and Cellini (through there DVDs and lectures) who infuse the classics that they present with a sense of historical importance and make you want to go back and seek further information on these classics.

Are private teachers providing history? My sense is that, not only is this not happening, but it is very difficult to even find a private teacher comparable to many high level teachers available in the other arts. When I was a youngster studying music privately, rarely was there any discussion of history. It wasnt until the high school level at the specialized arts school that history was formally introduced (you got it whether you wanted it or not). Private lessons on into conservatory years rarely included history. The history passed on was more in the lineage of the performer.

I personally discovered the importance of history late in my musical education (and I suspect this is par for the course for those similarly educated as myself). After specializing in chamber music I found a new understanding in the works I performed, by knowing about the composer who wrote the work, what was his mentality during the composition of the specific work, what was going on his life, what was going on in the world, what kinds of emotions and influences caused this composer to write this particular work the way he did. Having this information truly colors ones own performance - only for the better. Is magical history knowledge able to color our performances in the same way - maybe - maybe not.

I believe that a standard pedagogy for teaching magic should include the mechanics, theory and history. After all, magic performance does not exist without any one of these. The level of inclusion of each and/or every one of these can and will be dependent on the knowledge and ability of the teacher. A good teacher will pass along these skills and understandings without the student resisting because they are seamlessly delivered. Students deserve to get this information. If they receive it in the normal course of their development, there would never be a question about resistance and lack of importance on their part. But, of course, we in the magic community lack teachers period. So, this is unlikely to happen to any significant degree in the near future.

We have lecturers, but they dont do too much teaching these days. Unless one thinks demonstrating tricks for a roomful of people is teaching. If lecturers got folks up from the audience to perform a piece that they have been preparing, and commented on the piece/performance: technically, theoretically and historically - if done in an entertaining, yet informed way there is value to all present. Of course, this puts a tremendous burden on the lecturer-they can no longer just think of themselves, and what they do, but what do others do and why and what would help form and define others work in magic.

Every video and book provides some historical documentation. The video aspect is particularly scary, especially when you think of the YouTube performances for all to consider and their historical significance to our future.

Lastly, it would be nice if those of us without any credentials in regards to "the history of magic" were welcomed to the "magic historical societies". My impression is that the information and gatherings are for the "select" few. Who knows what undiscovered talent/historian may exist, but cannot exist because of exclusivity.

[Guest]

IMHO, Dan makes some interesting and thoughtful points, so thank you, Dan!

A few thoughts:

Is magical history knowledge able to color our [magic] performances maybe maybe not.

I believe so, on many levels. At a creative level, knowledge of magic history allows one to create. For example, consider Jim Steinmeyers thoughtful obituary of John McKinven in the February 2007 Genii, wherein Jim made it clear that Johns knowledge of magic history was a key influence on Jim. Jim writes, Through his [McKinvens] research, he recreated and demonstrated important principles responsible for the illusions of Doug Henning, David Copperfield, and other popular magicians. Jims point, I believe, was that a thorough understanding of magic history and its principles dramatically broadens and deepens the creative resource pool from which to draw.

At a performance level, consider how Ricky Jay draws on his knowledge of magic history to provide patter and other verbal and visual background to his performances.

Lastly, it would be nice if those of us without any credentials in regards to "the history of magic" were welcomed to the "magic historical societies". My impression is that the information and gatherings are for the "select" few. Who knows what undiscovered talent/historian may exist, but cannot exist because of exclusivity.

There is, alas, a certain degree of elitism in magic, including in its collecting and history sub-groups (really, this seems the case regardless of the field of interest, profession, etc.), and Dan is correct in observing that such elitism (real or perceived) could cause the loss of a potential contributor. I could write a ton on this pet peeve, but a polemic probably wont be helpful. On this point, Dan, perhaps a constructive response is to encourage those without credentials to take a baby step by joining the Magic Collectors Association. In that regard, this thread might be helpful.

If you are a member of the MCA, you automatically get to go to their annual get-together. You cant be excluded. Yes, there are some snobs out there, but in my experience the vast majority of fellow collectors and history lovers are very approachable. And I can virtually guaranty that newbies who attend will soon find themselves immersed in history and collecting chat. And before you go, strike up a conversation or two with MCA members on this board, which should insure a friendly face to meet upon your arrival at the annual get-together.

Clay

[Guest]

Besides making me a better performer, my on-going study of magic history has protected me from having to re-invent the wheel each time I wanted to do something. How can you do the Malini Egg Bag with full entertainment potential without studying how Malini performed?

The fantasy that what we do must be original is nonsense. Really great "new" effects only come along rarely. Take the classics, study them, adapt and adopt them as your own and you'll have far better trick plots than anything you can dream up on your own.

The reading of magic history - well-researched and well-written articles and books - brings those people alive for me, makes them real as persons, not two-dimensional characters, but people who performed theatrically under a variety of conditions.

It all comes down to what Gene Roddenberry once asked me when we were talking about his "secret" to good writing. He said, "What's more interesting than people?"

[Guest]

Originally posted by David Alexander:
The "escape" from the Siberian Transport Van was a story he cooked up that sounded great and added to his legend.

We even nothing know about Siberian Transport Van. In Russian books it was "cell inside Buturian Jail". "Buturka" was most famous Russian prison and we supposed it was there. BTW. On first Russian book with this escape there is note about place where author take it: Seldow, Michel, Les illusionistes et leur secrets, Paris, 1959. So, first time we read it on French book...

...and if the Russians claimed it was a lie, who would have believed them at the time?

I am so apologize. If you means me, I never claim Harry Houdini lied. Of course, I suppose it, but I never claim it. You can take my sources and made your decision like me.

One information what show that probably Harry Houdini can be not correct is method of transporting to Sibiria. Trip was 2-3 month long and nobody use handcuffs. We used "candales". Difference - on handcuffs use lock, but candales closed by blacksmith. It is impossible open, only broke it. It made second blacksmith on finis point. Looks like Russians read Seldow, understand that situation not possible and change "Siberian Transport Van" to "Buthurian cell".

Apologize if this information not interesting.