Cups, cups, cups

[Guest]

Mr. McGough--I certainly may not be as important as others on this site. I may not have the intricate knowledge that some of you have. But I assert that I was treated badly by Mike Brazill, and I can understand the positions of others on this site who have said similarly. I would appreciate if you would stop trying to discredit me. You were not there. I have done nothing to you to warrant such accusations. I've learned a lot from reading all of these posts.

As for the reply by RNT2, I appreciate the honesty. I understand if you don't want to post a public reply. It was none of my business to ask in the first place, but since so many other professed to have knowledge, I figured I'd get the information directly from you. I understand your position, and appreciate your cander. No further response is necessary to my inquiry. And honestly, when my son's birthday comes around, I will probably get a set of cups from you. Just keep the quality good!
Brandon

[Guest]

By the way... I would like to hear a response from Mr. Riser and Mr. Palmer regarding my previous question of the pre-Danny Dew Paul Fox Cups.
-B

[Guest]

Bill, again if you feel this was unfair, you are entitled to that opinion. It was my idea to issue the seconds after we decided that we were sending out the corrected items free of charge and with no prior notice, however your perpetual ranting and raving here left us no choice but to announce this. There were quite a few people that were made aware of this long before you started posting here. We are shipping new cups and not asking for the return of the others. Are you looking for an admission of making a mistake, well we did and we have taken "OUR" steps to correct it.

Mr. Riser, as for issuing seconds, I have to agree with you and had not thought of the points you did and agree with them completely. There will most certainly be no more seconds issues and you have given us some great insight on the matter. As for Bill rather then using anytype of educational approach, his posts have been harrassing, repetative and vindictive, nothing more.

As for Bill Palmer, never once did we recieve an email concerning any issues with your set of cups. The one email I did come across was one with a La Petite, where the only criticism was the hallmark was not perfectly centered. Gee Bill, I immediately went to you site and saw that Busby, Bertram, P&L and numerous other hallmarks are not perfectly centered but yet that was your only complaint to us. I can't help but think how funny and inane that email really was to the company.

Over all Bill, you intentions were not to educate or inform but to diminish the public view over the RNT II Magic Company. You failed miserably as we had tremendous sales since the forum thread began and numerous inquiries as well. If a company makes a mistake then hides away and does not return emails, phone calls and communicate with it's customers, then I would see that there was just cause for some public prodding to get them to respond. But RNT II Magic has handled each and every situation with respect, honesty and professionalism. How dare you publicly try to humilliate the company and the people that represent it when we were taking action over a sitution that was under control.

I will stand by this company and run it as we see fit with the guidence of our consumers, if we stumble along the way, I'm sure you will be there to kick us while we are down, but our loyal frined and customers will be there to support us and tell us were we went wrong.

Thank you again our supporters and customers.

Marcella Zimmerman
President/CEO
RNT II Magic, Inc.

[Bill Palmer]

Bob has a good point. I should have sent the cups back immediately upon noticing the defects.

Actually, that's not quite true. I should have sent them back immediately upon noticing that they were not to Paul Fox specs. But I cut RnT II some slack and even posted a review at the Magic Cafe that was fairly straightforward.

I can't make any excuses for not inspecting the cups more closely, except that I figured since they were presumably using the same spinner to do their cups that they had used when Mike was with them, that the quality would be the same. It wasn't.

I do not want to see RnT 2 go out of business. Not at all. I would like to see them live up to the potential that they have.

I'll make the same offer to Marcella and Jake that they made to me. You have my e-mail address. Drop me an e-mail and tell me how you plan to correct the situation.

[Bill Palmer]

Originally posted by MagicFan440:
By the way... I would like to hear a response from Mr. Riser and Mr. Palmer regarding my previous question of the pre-Danny Dew Paul Fox Cups.
-B

Most of that is covered to some degree on Jim's web site. However, here is a little information for you. Like Danny Dew, Paul Fox did not do his own metal spinning. He had the work done for him at a location that is not known to me. Very few sets of these "Pre Danny Dew Paul Fox cups" exist, that is, that are verifiable. I know of one set that is verifiable. But they are so rare that I would be violating a confidence if I let the information out regarding its location.

Until the owner of those cups decides to make the information public, there isn't much I can do about it.

I have not seen the cups in person, but have seen a photograph of them. The provenance of these cups is beyond question.

I should point out here that Tannen's is partially responsible for the existence of the Paul Fox/Danny Dew cups. Before Danny started producing the cups, Tannen's commissioned Connie Hayden to make some cups that looked like them. Paul was then moved to have someone who knew what he was doing and how to get it done make the cups.

I hate to be this vague, but that's the nature of the business.

The total number of these "Pre Danny Dew PF Cups" is not known.

[Guest]

Bill, I can't help but notice that your post seem contrary to what you have said in your last post. It seems you have gone our of your way to pick appart and attack RNT II Magic, Inc. It appears to initially started out over the incidents with Michael and escalated on from there. While Mr. Brazill might have had you in "the loop" so to speak you really were not aware of what was actually going on, this is not your fault as you knew only what he was telling you. But, based on that information I believe in my opinion you used to this to forge a sword against us. I as many others held you in a higher standard than this and quite frankly were disappointed in the posts you made. Attacking Jakes spelling? Cmon' Bill how silly was that?

Numerous posts have been made in regards to correcting the situation at hand with the cups and we are proceeding with that. The only ones that seem unhappy with our sollution are the ones following up with support to your posts. Bill, do you know what a bean count is? If you do you will understand what I am about to say and so will others and take it for the context that it is. We analyzed the amount of cups that went out, we analyzed what it would either take to do a recall ie. reimburse shipping fees etc. and we found it to adventageous to both the company and the consumer that we just send a new set of cups without asking for returns, not to mention many had indicated they wanted to keep the cups. So that is the plan we went with. In the interim if we lose you and your followers as customers that is a damage the company will have to accept for its mistake. It's not business, just a fact in business that no matter what you do to correct something there will still be people that will hold it against you and speak poorly of you. As a strong voice in the collectors community you have only strengthend that fact and again it is something as a company we will have to live with and deal with for quite a long time. There was no prior emails from you other than an off center hallmark in a petite cup. Based on this my only assumption could be you are trying to damage the company other than communicate and promote an educational level of the mistake that was made.

Mr. Riser. Both our attorney and I have reviewed the situation with Olive Vase posted on the RNT II site. The concept was presented by our client to you which was provided to us. Our attorney has informed us that we are not in violation of our pictures of our clients prototype nor have we committed any unethical conduct by posting such pictures. While our client can prove that the concept and idea was his and you were contracted by him to make the piece, unless a patent has been filed there is no reason for us to remove the pictures or stop the project. We polled quite a few of our customers and not one return stated that what is on our site was a ethical or patent violation. Both our council and our clients feel we were even fair stating that you made the first prototype. If you would like the reference to your name removed, simply email our webmaster, richard@rnt2.com and he will remove the mention of you manufacturing the prototype for our client.

Again our thanks go out to our supporters who greatly out number the posters here worldwide. People like McGough or Magoo who hide behind a simple signature of a first name hold no weight with the posts and I don't feel have posted a single valid point. Even when asked in a post are you a particular person they are spineless enough to simply post a smiley. In my opinion as with alot of others I am sure, if you want your posts and opinion to carry some weight or validity, you have to be man or woman enough to stand up for who you are. It is evident that the poster is a coward and as MJ put it, a "wagoneer" who just jumped on an out of control bandwagon campaign against RNT II Magic.

The outlook for RNT II is not bleak or uncertain. Over the past several months we have analyzed the market, approached copyright holders for permission to bring back older effects no longer on the market and to bring back a line of magic to the masses that everyone can afford and not target just the collectors.

Since the announcement of bringing a deluxe line of Ickle Pickle cups to the market in brass, chrome and copper the response was overwhelming from around the world, over 839 emails congratulating us such a bold move and they look foward to a deluxe line that they can afford. We did recieve a whopping 5 emails that called us everything from sellouts to duhs. What are duhs? Only one email had a signature the other 4 had no name or return email address, they could have been from Mr. Magoo or McGough in Texas for all we know.

Earlier this morning on our website we posted the Limited edition Nickel Chrome series, the response was overwhelming as we have not even released a newsletter yet and most sets are already near the sell out point. We again send thanks to all our customers and supporters who have seen through and past some of these hateful opinion based posts. It is our customers that have taken us over 47% of our projected forecast for 2005 and 2006 is loooking even better.

Best wishes to everyone, this has been an enlightening thread and a very imformative one as well. I persoanllly think it is time we all get back to our business and our real lives for awhile and make some magic in lives of others with the talents you have been blessed with.

Sincerely,
Marcell Zimmerman
President/CEO
RNT II Magic, Inc.

[Guest]

Bill, in just out of curiosity did the Pre-Danny Dew cup that you saw a photograph of resemble the Type 1 style or the Type 2 Style. Just wondering since the "Pre-Danny Dew" Paul Fox cups on Jim Riser's site are clearly style 2.
-B

[Bill Palmer]

They looked more like type 2 than type 1 in the photos. Sometimes lighting, etc. can make the contours of cups look a bit different than they actually are.

You should check with James Riser about which of the PF cups in his photos are actually Pre-Danny Dew. There aren't many sets of those at all. I know what it says on David Ben's page and the link to it, but that reference can be read more than one way.

Bear in mind that the reason there were two styles of Danny Dew small cups was that the cups in the first run had a smaller dimple in the bottom than Paul wanted.

[Bill Palmer]

Bill, I can't help but notice that your post seem contrary to what you have said in your last post. It seems you have gone our of your way to pick appart and attack RNT II Magic, Inc. It appears to initially started out over the incidents with Michael and escalated on from there. While Mr. Brazill might have had you in "the loop" so to speak you really were not aware of what was actually going on, this is not your fault as you knew only what he was telling you. But, based on that information I believe in my opinion you used to this to forge a sword against us. I as many others held you in a higher standard than this and quite frankly were disappointed in the posts you made. Attacking Jakes spelling? Cmon' Bill how silly was that?

I was not attacking Jake's spelling. I was pointing out that he was misusing a word. Look up "divot" or "divet" and see specifically what it means. Regarding the rest of the situation between you and Mike, I have deliberately shown a lot of restraint. If I had really wanted to go on an attack, which I have neither the time nor the inclination to do, I could have done so quite easily.

Numerous posts have been made in regards to correcting the situation at hand with the cups and we are proceeding with that. The only ones that seem unhappy with our sollution are the ones following up with support to your posts. Bill, do you know what a bean count is? If you do you will understand what I am about to say and so will others and take it for the context that it is. We analyzed the amount of cups that went out, we analyzed what it would either take to do a recall ie. reimburse shipping fees etc. and we found it to adventageous to both the company and the consumer that we just send a new set of cups without asking for returns, not to mention many had indicated they wanted to keep the cups. So that is the plan we went with. In the interim if we lose you and your followers as customers that is a damage the company will have to accept for its mistake.

Followers?! What do I have? An ARMY? I don't think so.

And you must admit that even after Mike and RnT II parted ways, I still supported your company by making major purchases from you. These included 2 LePetite cups, a Mini Don Alan Chop Cup and this set of stainless steel "Paul Fox Cups."

It's not business, just a fact in business that no matter what you do to correct something there will still be people that will hold it against you and speak poorly of you.

Something would have been better than nothing.

As a strong voice in the collectors community you have only strengthend that fact and again it is something as a company we will have to live with and deal with for quite a long time. There was no prior emails from you other than an off center hallmark in a petite cup. Based on this my only assumption could be you are trying to damage the company other than communicate and promote an educational level of the mistake that was made.

Your response when I pointed out the off-center hallmark and engraving was less than gracious. I sat on this information about the defective "Paul Fox" cups as long as I felt was prudent. Then the information came in about the quality of the "factory seconds." When I actually saw them and compared them to my cups, I was definitely not happy.

As the CEO of RnT II Magic, you are the only one who can correct the situation.

[Guest]

Hey Bill,

If Dumbledore can have an army, so can you. Sign me up.

Mark

[Jonathan Townsend]

Given how important cups are to those who use the things, I'd like to believe the things are also well made.

Originally posted by lastnitesfun:
Hey Bill,

If Dumbledore can have an army, so can you. Sign me up.

Mark

Funny how defense against the dark arts (DA) became Dumbledore's Army to the paranoid and to what seems no avail two books later. Then again anyone attempting to keep the bride from being stripped bare by her suitors/bachelors is considered odd these days. Yes, I know that glass is cracked.

[Richard Evans]

Originally posted by brownbeauty:
I thought I would add to the PF discussion by showing a piece of Paul Fox Stationary that his daughter (Margaret Fox Mandel) was kind enough to send me. The front of the stationary has the Paul Fox Letterhead and the reverse side at the bottom on all of this style stationary has a reverse P and a forward F.

Rudy

Paul Fox Stationary

Please excuse the slight diversion here. Maybe it will serve as light relief.

I understand that Paul Fox was a talented monogrammist, but have it on good authority that he didn't design the 'PF' logo. Nevertheless, it seems to exist pre-Busby. It's interesting to see that the matchbook cover in the link above has 'Patent pending' printed on it: any idea what this was for?

If anyone can tell me the answers to these questions, I'd be grateful:

Who designed the logo & roughly when?
Was the 'PF' registered as a trademark or patent before Busby? (What about those matchbooks?)

Thanks

Richard

[brownbeauty]

Hi Richard,
I think I can answer your question later tonight. I have a letter from Margaret (Pauls Daughter) and she explains her fathers interest in this and other print/logo items. I will post some more pictures of these later also.

Rudy

[Richard Evans]

Originally posted by brownbeauty:
Hi Richard,
I can answer your question later tonight. I have a letter from Margaret (Pauls Daughter) and she explains her fathers interest in this and other printed items.

Rudy

Thanks, Rudy
Much appreciated.

Richard

[Tabman]

Originally posted by Steve V': Very appreciated. Be kinda neat working out cup moves with real cups. Steve V

Bad luck, I can't put my hands on those crummy old aluminum cups but theres a nice set of well patina'd copper Phoenix cups and balls that I am going to ship out to you. They are much cooler, to my eye anyway. Give me a few days or a week to get them in the mail.

-=tabman

[Guest]

Thank you sir, the cups will be greatly appreciated. Email me your address and which item I refered to in my email (I can't figure this PM stuff out). It's a Southern Georgia thing.
Steve V <--Formery of Camden County

[brownbeauty]

Originally posted by Richard Evans:

Originally posted by brownbeauty:
[b] Hi Richard,
I can answer your question later tonight. I have a letter from Margaret (Pauls Daughter) and she explains her fathers interest in this and other printed items.

Rudy

Thanks, Rudy
Much appreciated.

Richard [/b]

This letter I am quoting from was sent to me from Margaret Mandel (Pauls Daughter).

Dear Rudy,
Recently I found the enclosed Paul Fox memorabilia. Thought that you would appreciate having the beautiful layouts done very late in his life. He never stopped thinking.

My father had a burning desire to improve upon the matchbook. He had more than several patents to this end. He also had a great fondness for Coca Cola. You will probably like the cardboard blanks for one of the matchbook patents-the New Angle--best. The memo pad "Pause for a COKE with your smoke" is interesting. I guess the long sheet is a conglomerate prototype of the advertising possible on the matchbooks. This includes the Palmer House where he performed. He designed a logo for it too!

Daddy did all of the lettering himself. Having much less than full use of his hands, it was difficult. He had to do it all with his left hand-he was right handed.

Sincerely,

Margaret Mandel

I have added pictures of the items she describes in the letter @ www.brownbeauty.org

Rudy

[Pete Biro]

Rudy... great stuff. I too have several of Paul's early letterheads, etc. His artistic sense and design had to be as good or better than anyone in magic. Thanks for posting the images.

[Richard Evans]

Thanks Rudy. From that letter it looks as though Paul Fox was the originator of the logo. But never registered? Very interesting - thanks for sharing that.

Richard

[brownbeauty]

I just added one of Paul Fox business cards before he was Paul Fox. His birth name is Paul Fuchs and he was a Designer and Engraver/Instructor at the Chicago School of Engraving. See pic at www.brownbeauty.org

Rudy

[Richard Kaufman]

He's got a trick in The Tarbell Course in Magic under the name Paul Fuchs--I think it's a card manipulation of some sort.

[Richard Evans]

Originally posted by brownbeauty:
I just added one of Paul Fox business cards before he was Paul Fox. His birth name is Paul Fuchs and he was a Designer and Engraver/Instructor at the Chicago School of Engraving. See pic at www.brownbeauty.org

Rudy

Tiffany & Co. in New York apparently had a silver plaque in their store window saying, "This is the finest script ever wrought by human hands" - it featured the work of Paul Fox.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Pete is correct. He and Joe Porper have a signed license from the Paul Fox estate giving them the sole ability to use Paul Fox's name in the marketing of magic. Anyone else who's using Paul Fox's name is doing so in violation of that agreement.

Im a bit worried about the price of the new Paul Fox product line that will be coming out. As we have seen in the past, along with the high quality of the Porper cups comes a hefty price tag. The price will probably be out of the reach of most working performers. The Paul Fox line used to be within the price range of the average working magician. A product like the cups, which tends to get dinged up in the course of regular use, should be in a price range so that you can replace them without a second thought.

Ben

[Pete Biro]

Why not wait and see what we produce and the pricing before you comment?

[Guest]

Well then that sounds very promising and Im look forward. Making a comment after the product is released would just be whining and would do nothing to role back the price.

Ben

[Guest]

He's got a point. Some of the Porper stuff is way overpriced. Some of it, however, is very reasonable - like the dye tube.

[Guest]

If, in fact, you feel there is a better, cheaper (sorry Jay Marshall) way to deliver a product of EQUAL or BETTER quality than Mr. Porper you ought to step up. Undoubtedly the (magic)world would beat a path to your door.

The problem here is there is no room for the Wal*Mart model. You can't sell a million widgets making a nickel or penny of profit on each one. The magic world, for all its sound and fury on boards like this one, is the "nichest" of niche markets. Runs tend to be short, time and labor intensive and there are few people to make the purchases.

[Pete Biro]

One of the things one does not know until you get involved deeply is how much time and effort is spent to make the first of anything.

We have had a few things wind up in the trash because they didn't live up to our standards, or did not do what they were supposed to.

Sometimes a thousandths of an inch one way or the other, in machining, can screw up several hundred dollars worth of material.

I remember Mike Caveney telling me once about going to Johnson Products (he worked there) and one of the machines had gone off the slightest amount and they had to junk HUNDREDS of gaffed coins.

[Guest]

Well it seems that Johnson Product for their cups have come up with the formula to balance both the precision and cost.

Ben

[Guest]

Originally posted by Dave_Dorsett:
If, in fact, you feel there is a better, cheaper (sorry Jay Marshall) way to deliver a product of EQUAL or BETTER quality than Mr. Porper you ought to step up. Undoubtedly the (magic)world would beat a path to your door.

The problem here is there is no room for the Wal*Mart model. You can't sell a million widgets making a nickel or penny of profit on each one. The magic world, for all its sound and fury on boards like this one, is the "nichest" of niche markets. Runs tend to be short, time and labor intensive and there are few people to make the purchases.

It seems that some people have found a way to deliver products of equal quality at a lesser price. Contrast the price of a set of copper Porper cups to a set of copper Sherwood, Riser or JESmagic cups. Are the latter three cups of a lesser quality? I don't think so. Is there a profit margin? Undoubtedly.

The wee box and wand don't justify the Porper mark up, so there must be some serious Porper magical mystery mojo going into those cups; that unquantifiable quality that just means: you pay more.

[Pete Biro]

The wands sell for $200 without cups. If you saw how much care and work went into them you would wonder how Joe makes any money off them.

Johnson's cups are CNC carved by a big machine, hence less labor cost and I "believe" brass is a lot less expensive than copper.

[Guest]

Didn't know that about the wands. Sorry,

[Wolfgang]

The CNC machine would not be a good argument for the lower cost in this case. The runs in magic are so small that you would have to figure in the cost of programming and set-up. In addition those CNC lathes are relatively expensive to purchase so you would have to add amortisation cost to the price. Given the small run size this factors will certainly belittle the difference to the cost in manual labor.
Having said that I do feel that the Porper material I have seen so far is outstanding in quality and certainly demands a premium. It is like everywhere in the world: There is Hyundai but if you can affort it you will buy a BMW. :)

[Guest]

Riser and Sherwood aren't manufacturers of Hyundais...

[Guest]

What is the real purpose of these products? Is it for the working professional?

These products are not for regular magicians if they, in the end, will cost too much to produce and in turn cause a high retail price. I would rather see the product remain as a collectable on E-Bay. But, if you truly are trying to revive an old product to market for working Magicians and not Collectors, then it must fall in the range of the working professional.

It would just be a shame to take a product meant the regular working man and put out another museum piece (which I believe also has its place) but this was my original fear when I heard the news.

Ben

[Jeffrey Cowan]

If one were to consider what a genuine "working professional magician" charges for a performance and earns over the course of the lifetime of a typical prop, there is no basis to find that Joe Porper's products are "overpriced". Especially if you consider the cost on an after-tax basis -- which a true "working" professional is entitled to do.

Think about how much money it takes to start most businesses. The costs of props for a "working magician" pale in comparison.

By the way, I've seen the time and effort that Joe Porper puts into making his products (including R&D). It's substantial. Considering his deserved status as a master craftsman and the relatively small numbers that he can sell in this "cottage industry", Joe's prices are hardly out of line.

[Pete Biro]

I would guess a goodly amount of what Porper makes is gotten by collectors that want the stuff becaue HE made it.

The other group of buyers are those that want something that is well made and they can be proud of using... the look, feel, etc. are what many of us consider.

Another aspect, and this goes way back to Ken Brooke... he felt that if it was low priced everyone in your neighborhood would have one, hence he made limited numbers of items and kept them exclusive.

There is nothing worse than working a gig and all the audience has already seen what you are using.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Jeffrey Cowan:
If one were to consider what a genuine "working professional magician" charges for a performance and earns over the course of the lifetime of a typical prop, there is no basis to find that Joe Porper's products are "overpriced". Especially if you consider the cost on an after-tax basis -- which a true "working" professional is entitled to do.

Think about how much money it takes to start most businesses. The costs of props for a "working magician" pale in comparison.

By the way, I've seen the time and effort that Joe Porper puts into making his products (including R&D). It's substantial. Considering his deserved status as a master craftsman and the relatively small numbers that he can sell in this "cottage industry", Joe's prices are hardly out of line.

I dont disagree with you, yet there are also Working Magicians making a living but who cant, do to their market; charge the amounts you allude to. These people are no less professional. Cups when used, are not a once in a lifetime purchase. I would imagine if you ask Paul Gertner how long his cups last and how many sets he has gone through in his career thus far, after the abuse his routine puts his cups through; it would be more than one set. So costs dont pale when you have to repurchase an item.

How many of you have torn through your straight jacket from use? Had to replace a set of cups because as much as we personally like to see the battle scars on them, realize the general public only sees a marred set of cups? How about the three-inch chrome jumbo coins? I know my multiplying bottles have seen better days and theyre only a year old!
Ben

[Guest]

Another aspect, and this goes way back to Ken Brooke... he felt that if it was low priced everyone in your neighborhood would have one, hence he made limited numbers of items and kept them exclusive.

There is nothing worse than working a gig and all the audience has already seen what you are using.


The public just sees your set of linking rings and does not know how much you paid for them. The same is true with cups and yes they could probably tell that they are nice cups but have no idea the cost. Cups and balls is something in the public domain so chances are they have seen the trick at another magic show. It is our performance that sets professionals apart from the amateur.


Ben

[Chris Aguilar]

Originally posted by hpcman:
[QB] ... he felt that if it was low priced everyone in your neighborhood would have one,....

Wow! Everyone in my neighborhood wants to own a set of cups and balls?
;)