TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 17th, 2007, 2:16 pm

Your right, its a sad reality that they can do whatever they want with it. I'm not even worried so much about youtube though. People would need to search for a trick of mine, and maybe find something... so far nothing of mine is up there like that. But its when loosers like David J Castle make a site that literally organizes and encourages more... that screws things up for everyone! I'm just trying to put a stop to those horrible websites. They should not exist.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 17th, 2007, 3:15 pm

Originally posted by Jesse Feinberg:
..a site that literally organizes and encourages more... that screws things up for everyone! ...
It's a challenge to explain to them without loosing one's temper.

I can assure you though that in discussion with these people things will go better if you can put your awareness into their point of view. Not many people set out to do "bad" things by willful intent. As difficult as it may be to believe, most folks do what they feel is the best they can do, and so it becomes very awkward to tell them they are "wrong" from your point of view.

Whatever you do with this person and their site, remember that the law, the very spirit of the internet and common courtesy are on their side. To them and to the muggle world you are asking someone to give up what they believe to be the right thing. To the world at large, when WE accepted the "cash on the barrel" trade of money for magic, we also accepted the "bottom of the barrel" where folks sell copies of things and sell secrets for cut-rate prices ... even vanity.

No small trick to help someone find a better way of doing things without giving into your own anger, especially when they are stepping on your toes.

Sorry if I sound like Yoda about this. I have to side with civility here even with so many temptations toward Sith-like agendas.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 18th, 2007, 1:32 am

Say, for example, I was a spectator at a magic show. I saw a magician do a really impressive trick where he caused a dollar bill to float in the air. I was blown away and thought, "That guy is really good! How could he possibly do it?"

Later, sitting at home, I google the words MAGIC DOLLAR BILL TRICK.

Up comes a YouTube clip headed: 'Floating Levitation Magic Hummer Card Trick Dollar Bill'

The man in the clip is advertising to sell me the secret on eBay.

I'm tempted, but I see in the section headed 'Related Clips' another video from the same user 'Explanation of Floating Levitation Hummer Magic Card Trick'.

This isn't the explanation, but another ad, but now in the 'Related Clips' I see a video from a different user headed 'Hummer Levitation Trick revealed'

Now I know how the trick is done. I'm quite disappointed I was fooled by such a simple method.

My estimation of the performer drops and the mystery of magic is no longer as mysterious.


Getting back to Dave J Castle's site, if I stumble upon his site I can find the secret to just about any trick I want to. He even has a forum now where you can describe a trick you saw and a fellow forum member will tell you how it works.


I agree that, in the exposure of marketed effects, the exposers are stealing money from the creators and the retailers of those tricks.

But I also think that the intentional and deliberate exposure, on line, purely for the sake of exposure is really hurting magic.

When you perform, you might find your audience is baffled by your tricks and you can easily say the internet exposure doesn't hurt you. But it's AFTER they see you do your tricks that they might be curious enough to google a description of what you did, and there - for all to see - is your trick spread eagle for everyone to see.

Will they run back to you and say "I know how you did it!!!" Probably not. They may not run back to you at all.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 18th, 2007, 3:23 am

YES!!! Exactly, thank you Mr. Ellis! I know you've been on a quest to end this type of thing, let me know if there is anything I can do to help. I personally like calling these people at 4 in the morning with conversation :)

People like Davey J Classic suck. Bottom line. You're right Jon, he probably is doing the best he thinks he can. You nailed it. But to me, it is still no excuse. He sucks. I told him that. I also told him that hes ruining things, and he understood. But it doesn't get shut down? Someday, I will be an elite hacker, and totally ruin his moms vista junk box. ;)

Youtube is a whole different story. Impossible to fix...

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 18th, 2007, 10:26 am

Originally posted by Nathan Kranzo:
Just got off the phone with David Castle. He said anything that isn't public domain and is a blatant copyright infringement he will take down IF HE IS NOTIFIED. It was obvious from our conversation that he isn't going to go out of his way to research the effects and figure out whats ok to expose and whats not. But he will take it down if contacted.

It was also apparent that he is not the most well read magician so much of the material he might think is public domain but isn't. So he needs to be told what is.

All the best,

Kranzo
You have to understand that there are different definitions working here. Public Domain is a legal term. It refers to material that has either gone out of copyright (or patent protection) or was never copyrighted or patented in the first place, but was published without the benefit of either copyright or patent.

Modern Coin Magic is in the public domain, as are all of Hoffman, and many other sources we would like to have protection for.

Copyright protection has become automatic in recent years, and does not expire as quickly as it did when MCM was published. Under the new law, this book would still be protected.

Copyright protection only applies to specific wording, drawing or anything that can be notated or represented by a graphic. For example, until Labanotation was invented, dances were not copyrightable. Specific performances of public domain material can be copyrighted and so can arrangements of public domain music. This is why you have to pay royalties on Sousa marches performed by the Eastman Symphony, but you don't have to pay them on synthesized sequences you work out yourself. That's complicated, but you will find that it's true.

The Criss Angel material on YouTube is copyrighted. He or his people will have to get that removed. None of us can do it, unless we work for him.

If I purchase a manuscript for a trick, and I rewrite the instructions so that I am not using the same terminology or wording that the copyrighted version uses, I can legally publish it. It's unethical, but legal.

And if you have invented a trick, but never published it, and someone else figures it out, then you don't have much you can do about it but whine.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 19th, 2007, 3:21 am

If someone changed the name of one of my tricks, made the gaffs themselves, and totally re-wrote the instructions... it would still be a copyright infringement. The inspiration could be proven, it would be a pain to defend, but even paraphrasing and changing things around is still a copyright infringement.

But it doesn't really matter what we think/know about these things... It's whats out there that you could be flagging as spam RIGHT NOW! Even wikipedia can be changed around a little. LETS GO!

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 19th, 2007, 12:50 pm

Jesse wrote:
If someone changed the name of one of my tricks, made the gaffs themselves, and totally re-wrote the instructions... it would still be a copyright infringement. The inspiration could be proven ... even paraphrasing and changing things around is still a copyright infringement...
Jesse:

All due respect, but I believe you have been badly misinformed. Based on my (only rudimentary) understanding, the scenario you paint is precisely the kind of thing that would not be a copyright infringement. It is the copyright holders particular expression of a concept that is protected, not the concept itself.

Think parody as an example.

If Im the one who is badly misinformed, someone please chime in with a concrete rebuttal.

Clay

[added by edit]

This from the federal copyright office: (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wnp)

"What Is Not Protected by Copyright?

Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal copyright protection. These include among others:
...
...
Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration [emphasis added].
..."

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 19th, 2007, 4:30 pm

Not so Jesse. I can point you to at least 3 card effects that do precisely what you say. The name of the effects have been changed but it is the same trick.

If what you say is true why aren't the magic vendors that sell these type of knock offs out of business for copyright infringements?

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 19th, 2007, 5:04 pm

I might be wrong, but it's what I had explained to me. Specifically that if things are paraphrased, they are still protected. I'm not as worried about someone ripping a full trick off and selling it as a knock off. It's generally a matter of keeping it in stock to avoid that. I can't go to china and tell them to stop. I just think ADVERTISING that you can make money exposing the latest greatest effect is absolutely insane. That's are money, not yours! haha

And pirating dvd material is scary! I just think we should all keep on top of this stuff... what can we do to end it?

FLAG YOUTUBE EXPOSURE VIDEOS!

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 19th, 2007, 5:32 pm

Originally posted by Jesse Feinberg:
I might be wrong, but it's what I had explained to me. ...
Ah... the old problem of the blind leading the naive.


The cogent adult side of this issue is like the parrot in the Monty Python sketch. It's and ex argument. It's gone moot. It's whining in the fjords. So to put this dead parrot of an argument to rest:

Jesse, if someone were to buy your items and then rewrite the instructions and offer them for sale - and then make videos teaching them - and then post video tutorials exposing the material... they would be doing nothing illegal.

Now were someone to do such thing and you took ofence and were to so much as make comment about them in public in a way that a judge could construe as disparaging them or their business (even if it's selling derivitives of your work) you may well find yourself the defendant of a legal action and perhaps also a civil rights suit.

If you sell any magic trick you are also selling the right to expose it and sell it to others and to alter it and sell an unlimited number of these altered items as well. And that's the law. I happen to sympathize with your position and also have to argue for what we currently have a legal system in our society.

I wish you the best. Give your participation in an open market of magic a good reconsideration.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 19th, 2007, 10:11 pm

Whatever. Your so negative all the time man. Im not even trying to get into a stupid debate about copyright stuff. This isn't about me either ok. I'm fine, trust.

Listen, it's a little like the environment. We need to do a little each day to try to clean things up. Flagging b/s youtube videos, calling jerk offs like David J Crapsickle, joining exposure sites to monitor and steer the crowd. Things need to be done. Some of us in here are lawyers, others here actually buy the Rip off magic tricks at Rip off stores. So lets do what we can. Give me some positive feedback please!

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 20th, 2007, 3:47 am

Originally posted by Jesse Feinberg:
...Give me some positive feedback please!
I feel there is still hope that you have not entirely gone over to the dark side.

Consider how the rest of the world would look upon those who did the actions you suggest.

So far nobody has made the news for hacking websites in the name of your cause. And so far you have not gotten folks wearing brown shirts with double harry potter lightning bolt insignias marching down the streets intimidating magic vendors you don't like.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 20th, 2007, 5:34 pm

Jonathan, it looks as though you are playing devil's advocate to Jesse's gung ho approach. This is good because, to play on your analogy, "balance is needed in the Force".

What do YOU suggest we do though Jonathan? I came across a YouTube 'tutorial' for HEALED & SEALED here .

The videographer has many other exposures (sorry, tutorials) that he's created including FRAUD, PASSING THRU, SUPERMAN COIN BEND, D'LITE, PINNACLE, REVOLVER, HOVER CARD etc... and here's the interesting part.

He explains to another person in the COMMENTS section that he gets paid everytime someone views his tutorial at Dave J Castle's site:

"i said i havent been doing many videos after my check so they only OWE ME 10 cents and i get paid for views this one was like i forget but but about 170 something and over"

To give an idea of the mentality of the people who post these exposures. In the comments section of his FRAUD tutorial, someone suggests that he'll get in trouble for exposing Daniel Garcia's trick. The exposer replies:

they said the same when i revealed twinsplit remix and axis change nothing happend i just deleted twinsplit remix becuz i figered out dans username so i wanted to be friends with him so i deleted it

I'm at a loss as to what to think.

How do these hurt us? Well, if I send someone to look at the YouTube clip of me doing Healed & Sealed, in the RELATED column they'll see several HEALED & SEALED TUTORIALS.

It's just the same as performing a trick in a show and immediately someone stands up in the audience and explains how you did it.

We wouldn't tolerate it in real life, but somehow we seem to put up with it on the net.

Jonathan?

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 20th, 2007, 5:56 pm

Obviously my concerns are with the inventors here in magicdom and I prefer not to see anyone's works given away, taught and shown online without permission.

But how to communicate with the folks who put the material up there when

1) Sale of a trick gives the right to expose, teach and slightly modify and resell the work

2) The very spirit of the internet is to share information freely

3) The notion of legal "harm" is going to be a stretch to extend to include the monies from sales not made due to what we call 'exposure'.

My first instinct is to take the discussion with the Wiki folks as a test case and see how we can do helping the smart folks who do manage and edit the wiki understand our perspective.

My second and more somber solution is to seriously reconsider what it means to offer magic for sale as if one could sell secrets. We don't have legal IP protection for what we call secrets and non-magicians are not bound to preserve our "secrets" so we are in a moral bind between our internal ethos in magicom (which needs some improvement folks) and our relations with the rest of the world of commerce.

Now rather then pollute the Genii forum with diatribes I would prefer to take our strategzing offline into email so we write more freely and then post some options online for the group at large to consider.

Just to get our discussion going, what do you think these folks would make of it if the inventor of the work being exposed were to contact the site or clip poster and introduce themselves and ask politely that their work be kept secret?

As to asking hacker friends to do bad things or promoting censorship on the web... please let's not go there. We have enough troubles with 'big brother' already.

Easily reached at j0ntown@yahoo.com (j zero n)

Jon

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 20th, 2007, 6:46 pm

I have contacted Dave J Castle and asked him to remove the various HEALED & SEALED clips (as I have a financial stake in the trick as does Anders Moden).

However, even if inventors don't release their tricks, it still doesn't stop people offering 'tutorials'. I've seen several YouTube tutorials and exposures on other sites of Cyril effects that have never been marketed.

As an inventor, you can offer your new trick for sale and get some profits (sharing them with the exposers) or keep the trick to yourself while the exposers get 100% of the profits.

Anders only released HEALED & SEALED as a response to people who were selling their "versions" of his trick after it aired on a David Blaine special. It was either he release it and makes some money, or he doesn't and other profit from his creation.

It's almost impossible to keep secrets in magic these days...

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 20th, 2007, 7:26 pm

I personally think the problem is more complex and widespread that a simple youtube or Mr. Little Castle website.

Magic tutorials have become like a virus in these years.
But i don't think the blame is on Mr. Castle Website or youtube.

Let's begin to say that i personally have shivers when i see those horrible magic tutorials done by kids on youtube.
But they're just kids!
We can't blame them.

I think the problem maybe has begun with the thousands and thousands of magic clips and tutorials that are sold on magic websites.
I mean on the websites of magic houses etc..
thousands of video of Jay Sankey and more, which spread the notion that every stupid could do magic by simply watching a 2 minute tutorial by Jay Sankey.
Thousands of variations of the same trick done badly and fastly from these magicians, in order to commercialize their poor thought tricks.

So what could the kids do?

I think that the example should at first be given by the magicians.
If the magicians want to make easy money and they distribute fast food and junkie food magic videos like nuts, what could a kid do?

If a kid for mistake goes on the penguin magic site and he sees all these hundreds of videos done by Oz Pearlman and the like..without having the slightest idea of what magic really is..
what could these kid do?

So the Mr. Castle site is only the tip of the iceberg.

Maybe the bulk of the iceberg and where the real problem is..is that nowadays magicians prefer to do easy money.

But i think that all these exposures sure are bad and make me shiver..
but probably the real magic secrets will never be exposed in this way!
Better..all these ugly tutorials are only smoke in the face.
The real secret of magic are well hidden between the lovers of magic.

I would have been more worried if other magic secrets would have been exposed.

For example all the psychological subtleties Mr. Tommy Wonder (the great Mr. Wonder) explained in his beautiful books "The books of Wonder".
But as all of you realize, those secrets can't be transmitted in this internet fashion.
They need care and love and most importantly hours of thought on magic, done alone and with others who love magic.

Sure i regret that the healed and sealed secret is widespread in this silly and easy way through youtube..
since i bought one for money in a legal way two years ago.
But maybe if this trick was released in 50 copies signed limited at 100 dollar a copy..
probably(i say probably this would haven't happened).
But this is just a speculation.

I think magic secrets should be guarded better by magicians.
Years ago if a kid entered in a magic house..
they would teach him the easiest trick after months..
they would have guarded the secret.
Nowadays every one could buy every trick!
Also a lay person.
The only thing he is asked for is some MONEY!

MONEY is maybe the problem!!
In the past magicians made a living with their secrets.
They guarded them even from their assistents.

At the end i think everyone shouldn't blame Mr.Castle if he is doing wrong.
He had just a bad example.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 20th, 2007, 8:50 pm

Interesting thoughts Crimson King.

But maybe if this trick was released in 50 copies signed limited at 100 dollar a copy..
probably(i say probably this would haven't happened).
Ask Ben Harris about this. That's how he released COSMOSIS (The Floating Match) way back in 1987. It's since become the most ripped-off magic trick in history. He had to go back on his word and start selling it again because rip-off artists were selling copies... and the people (including me) who paid $50 for the exclusive trick felt doubly ripped-off.


Your point about people like Jay Sankey setting a bad example by selling their tricks as download tutorials is interesting but not correct. Those people have created tricks so they can do what they like with them, but that doesn't excuse the "kids" from copying them and releasing their own tutorials of their heroes tricks.

When you say:
If the magicians want to make easy money and they distribute fast food and junkie food magic videos like nuts, what could a kid do? If a kid for mistake goes on the penguin magic site and he sees all these hundreds of videos done by Oz Pearlman and the like..without having the slightest idea of what magic really is.. what could these kid do?
It's as though you are blaming Oz and the others for NOT teeaching the "real secrets" of presentation, misdirection etc and you're inferring that Oz and the others are getting what they deserve... a generation of uneducated magicians who will expose as readily as they will perform.

Yes, one could argue that there is too much commercialisation of magic as magicians flood the market with a mixture of good, bad and downright awful effects.

But you seem to be suggesting that THAT is the reason for the exposure...?

The reason for the exposure is twofold:
1 - The desire inbuilt in young boys to look "cool" to their friends by telling them how magic tricks are done.
2 - The easy accessibility kids now have to the tools (the internet, webcams etc) to spread their "knowledge" far beyond their small circle of friends and family.

What should we blame Dave J Castle for? For creating a website that calls all of these "Masked Magicians" together and gives them safe haven. He's created a place that not only encourages exposure (in the guise of "tutorials") but actively rewards people for shouting out the secrets.

Not only that, but Dave J Castle makes his living as a "professional" magician, performing shows.

Does he reward kids who jump up during his shows and explain how his tricks are done?

I doubt it.

Many people have tried to explain to Dave that what he is doing is not exactly the best thing for magic... but Dave's site is making him "popular" with a lot of people. He is a big man in the empire he has created, and he won't give that up easily.

Crimsonking I agree with your opinion that the real secrets of magic aren't found in the tricks, but in the presentation and everything that Tommy Wonder spoke about, and it's interesting that you say "I would have been more worried if other secrets of magic had been exposed" (referring to those secrets) yet it's because the Jay Sankey's DIDN'T teach those secrets that you criticised them.

Like many other magicians who perform AND have released tricks and DVDs, I earn a lot more money by performing than I do selling to other magicians. Many of us sell to other magicians as a way of giving back to the art that has given us so much, others do so that their contributions to the art won't be forgotten (ie: so there will be an historical record of who created what). We're not all in it for the money.

However, the longer the magic community tolerates this sort of behaviour (both in exposure sites and rip-off magic dealers) the more segmented the community will become. Creators will keep to themselves, innovative performers will refuse to appear at conventions, magicians will refuse to allow anyone to film them, the magic world will change.

Maybe it is starting to change already. Whether this is good or bad is yet to be seen...

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 20th, 2007, 8:57 pm

Thank you Jonathan for your help! You have some great ideas and direction, and I will email you this week. I really want to team up with some people to monitor and control this. We could literally build a list of "offenders" and call them weekly to make sure certain secrets are maintained as much as possible. As long as we have this open forum for discussion, and we team up, we can do something about this.

As for DJ C, he is just a misinformed person with no direction. We can help him by telling him which videos to take off, he said he would. This is exactly what we need to be doing with all the rest out there.

Is there any way we can try to change the laws regarding magic secrets and copyrights. Can we petition? I am totally clueless about this sort of thing... Thanks guys!

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 21st, 2007, 5:15 am

Well..
Mr. Ellis,
some of your thoughts are correct.

First of all, let me say that i don't have nothing against Mr.Sankey or Mr. Perlman.

What i wanted to stress was the fact that all these internet tutorials on youtube done by kids,
and the Mr. Castle website, are just the tip of the iceberg.

This doesn't at all mean that i tolerate this tip of the iceberg.
As i said, i'm saddened and depressed and angry when i see all these tricks explained to laymen.
But as i said, probably the cause is not on the tip..
probably the cause must be searched on the bulk of the iceberg.

And for me the bulk of the iceberg is:
1)lots and lots of magic clips sold on magic house sites, which for little bicks, explain tricks in the same tutorial style as the one adopted by the youtube kids.
The
2)A new reborn of " street magic" and tons of tv magic specials on street magic done by young stupid magicians (i'm not referring to Angel, Blaine or Brown)that as parrots want to imitate the just mentioned Blaine, Angel, Brown.
And subsequently the kids at home watching all these stupid tv specials with tons of special effects and editing, want to imitate the magicians in the shows, and as mads go to the internet to search for the secrets.
Meanwhile, at the same time, the magic houses, or at least some, open internet sites, where they will explain those tricks just for easy money.
This creats a sort of cyclical mechanism, where magic sites, like ellusionist etc.. give away the secrets on the tv specials for money and the kids buy them and spread them on the net, just not knowing nothing about magic.
3)Magic is an art based on SECRETS.
But it semms that today magicians don't care at all to spread their secrets for money also to lay people.
There were times where a magician would never have taught one of his tricks to a layperson even for a million dollar.
Sometimes magicians even died bringing their secrets with them.

How come no one on the net is making tutorials on David Berglas tricks?
Or on Mr. Jay tricks?
Becuase these clever magicinas and educated persons, would never give away their secrets for easy money.
Mr.Berglas made a book where even to the magicians who bought it(becuase with the price of that book, it is unlikely that kids bought it), he doesn't explain in toto his secrets, but he wrote it in a way, that a magician must think a lot in order to appreciate the writing.

So these kids are taking example from someone, or not?
I think that if instead of all these magic tutorials that magic sites sell, they would sell books on magic, on magic presentation, on magic theory..
and if these kids would need hours and hours of study in order to learn and master the simplest of the magic tricks..
first of all only few would resist.
Only the one who really cares for magic.
And the kids which would resist and would study a lot..
they would bever give away so easily the secrets the took hours to learn.

So these kids are learning the bad example from magicians.
We are giving the bad example.
The message in the magic sites tutorials is always the same:
"Look kids how easy it is to learn this.
Look how easy it is to amaze people.
If you buy this tutorial, in only 2 minutes you will be ready to amaze your friends, like Blaine did on his tv shows".

So if the kid hear this, what would be his first thought?
Obviously that magic is easy and everyone in 2 minutes could do it.

It's like if we give 1.000 dollars to a kid without him having worked for earning those money.
More than probably, he'll spend those money in one minute.
But if he must work months to gain those money.
More than probably, he will think twice before spending them!! ;)

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 21st, 2007, 5:00 pm

I got this response from Dave J Castle

Hi Tim!

Received your e-mail.

We will remove those videos from our website today.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Dave J. Castle
President
[url=http://www.learnmagictricks.org
]http://www.learnmagictricks.org[/I][/url]

AND he has removed the video clips from his site.

Based on this action I recommend that people email him regarding the other marketed effects being exposed on his site and, hopefully, they will be removed too. (It's a start!)

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 21st, 2007, 5:34 pm

Crimsonking, I understand what you're saying, but I do think you're getting a little off topic.

Jesse started this thread talking about Dave J Castle's exposure site.

Your points are worthy of discussion, but perhaps you could start a new thread talking about the rampant over commercialisation of magic.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 22nd, 2007, 2:01 am

Yeah, exactly, lets stay focused on cleaning up the exposure little by little. I am so glad you got your requests taken care of Tim! He did keep his word which I am very happy about.

I feel that if other owners of exposure sites are contacted, they might be willing to cooperate to. It's just a matter of keeping up with everything, and making the contacts quickly. Can anyone else email or pm similar sites and contacts? Lets get a list offline going. This same list should be forwarded to magic shops, clubs, and even conventions. Who wants these people hanging around in the Magic world??? Not me! :cool:

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 22nd, 2007, 3:12 am

O.K,
i'll take your suggestion Tim.
Maybe one of these days i'll start another topic.
Just to conclude, i'm happy you had success with Mr.Castle.
But these websites and the youtube tutorials are like mushrooms.
Whenever you pick up one, other two will grow!!
What about youtube?
Could one email all the kids who expose magic on youtube?
Isn't it too long?
The web is just so big!!

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 22nd, 2007, 11:51 am

Youtube is to much to take on, at least for right now. Were more interested in finding the "learnmagic" exposure sites, etc... Then you just need to look up who the websites are registered to and that starts the search.

Please let me know if anyone has any other sites we should be "working" on. Thanks!

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 22nd, 2007, 4:33 pm

I have a question. Now that we have all these 12 year old kids exposing magic on the internet because they think it is a cool thing to do,

DO WE STILL THINK THAT HAVING SAM SYM GROUPS IS STILL A GOOD THING?

DO WE STILL THINK THAT TEACHING MAGIC TO KIDS IN AFTER SCHOOL CLASSES IS A GOOD THING?

WE ARE THE ONES THAT ARE TO BLAME FOR WHAT IS HAPPENING.

BEFORE THE INTERNET, SOME THINGS GOT AROUND. BUT NOT TO THE EXTENT THEY ARE TODAY.

MAYBE I AM JUST OLD, BUT WHEN I WAS A KID, IT WAS HARDER TO LEARN. AN INVESTMENT IN TIME, MONEY, MONEY AND READING WERE THE WAY WE LEARNED. IF WE WERE LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE SOMEONE TO TEACH US, THEY WOULD GIVE US A LITTLE AT TIME. THEY ALSO TAUGHT US TO RESPECT MAGIC AND IT'S SECRETS.

While some of these kids will stay with and become lifelong magicians, I think that 95% or more will just expose the things they learn.

It is hard now to go into a Mall without seeing a magic Kiosk or a section filled with MAGIC SECRETS at bottom basement prices.

In many respects, we have ourselves to blame for what is going on. I have seen this coming for a long time. There was a time that magic shops were not at street level. We had to seek them out. We had to work hard to learn a little. Now it is out there for everyone to see.

I think it is now too late to do anything about it. If there is a buck to be made, there will be a long line of folks out there trying to make it.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 22nd, 2007, 4:47 pm

Originally posted by MGM:
... DO WE STILL THINK THAT TEACHING MAGIC TO KIDS IN AFTER SCHOOL CLASSES IS A GOOD THING? ...If there is a buck to be made, there will be a long line of folks out there trying to make it.
The internet and our current culture of online gossip etc is what it is.

Some of us have moved our work offline and only put data online in a semi-coded form so that only other students of the craft can make ready sense of it.

Some of us have eschewed selling ANYTHING for exactly the property=right of exposure reason outlined earlier.

And I was truly sickened to find that creative folks are retreating from our commons for fear of having their works taken and dying off without so much as leaving students or a legacy of their wisdom for those of us who will miss them.

So while you have my sympathies I also feel that we need to discuss some options on how to proceed in ways that acknowledge the realities of the world as it is and somehow make sure our craft does not continue to lag our culture by a generation or more. We USED TO BE early adopters and secrets keepers for the HOW TO of our cultures. What the heck are we doing now???

Would somebody have a look at that guy's site in a week or so and see if any market items are on their still... and IMHO any tutorial of book items are also worth asking that they be removed (again IMHO).

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 23rd, 2007, 1:51 am

MGM,

Teaching kids in classes after school or at SYM is one thing, kids posting tutorials on the net is another.

I would be willing to bet that the kids who post tutorials on the net were NOT taught by anyone but simply bought or discovered the secrets.

I am 100% in favour of teaching students magic. You can control what they learn and mix in ethics and presentation with the secrets.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 23rd, 2007, 8:30 am

When kids seek out magic lessons because of a desire to learn magic, that is one thing. When it is offered in school, it is the parent that usually makes the decision of what subject they sign their kids up for. Todays parents want to expose their kids to a little of everything. The kids then decide what really interests them from all the things they have tried. The investment in money for the parents is probably $35-$40 dollars. It is very small. The kids learn & then expose. It is part of being a kid.

Most exposures on the web are done by kids. Some of the teachers stress keeping the secrets some probably do not. When the child looses interest, they still know the secrets, but they lose the respect & keeping the secrets is no longer important.

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Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby NCMarsh » August 23rd, 2007, 9:50 am

MGM,

How much of this is hypothetical, and how much is based on real experience with magic classes?

Brad Henderson has been teaching magic classes in Summer Camps for 18 years. I can say, from personal experience, that his students are the kind of audience that every magician dreams of. The kids soak in his passion for magic, and his respect for it. They aren't just handed a bunch of secrets..

The vast majority won't be magicians (and this, I think, is a good thing), but they come away loving magic; knowing the difference between good magic and bad magic; and seeing it as a cool, respectable thing.

Because of the kind of camps Brad works, as well, these kids -- if they follow in their family's footsteps -- are going to be very affluent. And, to be totally frank, well-off people who love good magic is a very good thing for magic and for those of us who need it to pay the bills.

It is the kids who are on their own, the ones who don't have an experienced guide to put the secrets in context and to learn magic the right way, who are posting to youtube etc.

Best,

N.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 23rd, 2007, 8:32 pm

I did not say anything about magic camps, that is a much higher investment in both time and money. My problem is that magic is almost given away to anyone with a few bucks in there pocket.

I know of some magic teachers that instill respect of magic to their students, I also know of some that don't. I know that some teachers move the kids along very slowly. They give them secrets a little bit at a time. There are other magic teachers that only take on the job in order to get the pay check. They teach things that should not IMHO be taught . That is where we get into trouble. Some of the kids will stay with magic most will not. When the interest goes, very often so does the respect.

I see it all the time, while I don't perform for kids, when I do perform and kids are present, they try as hard as they can to expose the magic and that is normal. I ask them where they got the knowledge they are spouting, and a large percentage of the time, they tell me about the magic classes they have attended. While they are usually applying what they learned incorrectly, it does not matter, it is just a bad situation.

The statements I have made come from my own experiences. We may each have different opinions about this subject, and we are each entitled to them. There is no one opinion that accurately covers all situation. I am sure that a good number of times my opinion is correct and I am sure that there are a good number of times that the opposite opinion is also correct. There is no right or wrong answer to this problem, but I still feel that it has become too easy for our secrets to get out by making it too easy for anyone to find out about them.

When so many only care about money, there are bound to be problem.

I respect your opinions and I hope you respect mine.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 24th, 2007, 6:04 am

MGM, folks

IMHO the exposure happens when someone decides to publish and offer for sale magic data in an open market. The data was exposed to the public. Whether the data was initially shrink wrapped or not seems impertinent. It was sent out there unattended in the muggle world like a child abandoned to the streets.

We are starting to hear the voices of some of those abandoned children which have grown up on the streets and may even have kids of their own now. We get to see them on YouTube and on their websites. Sorry they did not make it to never-never land. They can be found on the internet.

IMHO If one sends data out into muggledom, they have abandoned their responsibility to magicdom and have may well have created a nemesis.

I'm glad the web site owners contacted so far have not simply laughed at the requests to take down clips and instead taken legal action.

So far.

Copyright does not protect magic data. We lose all claim to any data published into the muggle world. To be perfectly legal about it we lose all claim with the first sale of the data as product. From that moment on anyone can post an exposure clip or sell competing descriptions as long as the competing item was clean-room engineered so as not to violate the copyright of the source work.

The war will not be televised. It will we streamed for free and the internet will be strewn with casualties taken from magicdom and abandoned into muggledom by short sighted magicians. The spread of magic data is not a cancer in the local bookstore. It has metastized into viral videos and innocently hosted sites.

Anyone still cheering for Hoffmann? Was Expert Card Technique really a noble idea?

I'm cool with folks wanting to make a quick buck exposing some magic data. Just not so cool about offering them sympathy when someone else decides to go for a popularity boost using that same magic data.

Funny thing about cakes, you can't have them, eat them and also burn them at both ends. Or was that secrets?

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 24th, 2007, 7:00 am

Jonathan, what about the exposure sites featuring tricks that were NOT offered for sale to "muggledom"?

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 24th, 2007, 7:24 am

By the way, we've had an instance of exposure on TV by a professional magician here in Aus that's lead to some interesting discussions on our blog:
www.MagicUnlimited.Typepad.com

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 24th, 2007, 7:25 am

Originally posted by Tim Ellis:
Jonathan, what about the exposure sites featuring tricks that were NOT offered for sale to "muggledom"?
IMHO If a muggle can buy it, it's in muggledom.

If muggles are taking it upon themselves to deconstruct or offer explainations of tricks performed on TV shows... sad but it is their right.

Think of the internet as the corner news stand which now offers home-made magazines. You can pay for things with your attention which is also a valuable commoditiy. To be fair it's the most valuable thing you have... the moments of your life.

When it comes to magicians offering tricks which are not theirs to teach I have to call that a foul and suggest that folks not buy from them, sell to them or include them in discussions of new material under development. IMHO if you are knowingly buying from or selling to someone who has made a practice of offering material against the wishes of the artist who developed that material... not such a good thing either.


* ethical disclaimer * if you can obtain a work without direct contact with the inventor or their delegate and offering your word that the work will be kept as secret (informal ND/NC)... it gets tough to complain later when that work is offered to all and sundry on a web page.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 27th, 2007, 5:44 pm

Jesse,

With all the talk about exposure how do you feel about this?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/scien ... ef=science

I would be interested in reading your comments.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 27th, 2007, 6:12 pm

This was brought up in our blog here last week.

My comment was:

Done in private, in the context of the symposium it's teaching. Posting the explanations in an article on the web it's exposure.

Others may disagree

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 27th, 2007, 6:14 pm

Oh, and getting back to the original post, here's one of the "tutorials" featured on Dave J Castle's site. THIS is our future generation of magic lecturers....

CLIP HERE

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 28th, 2007, 4:56 am

A working theory:

secrecy in magic fosters stagnation in magic.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 28th, 2007, 5:04 am

Originally posted by Magicam:
A working theory:

secrecy in magic fosters stagnation in magic.
Secrecy on what level? From potential audiences? From peers?

What is secrecy to you and what led you to offer that theory you posted above?

IMHO it's not secrecy among peers that has us lagging the arts by a generation or two but instead a tolerance for copyists. Look at what happened to Germain's works. Or Hofzinser's. So much put up for sale by those who traded cash for integrity.

****

Here's a follow-up on the offer to discuss strategy to handle online exposure sites and those who teach the works of others in pubic. There were NO emails. Not even Tim Ellis.

Given that actions speak for values one could now argue that there is no concern over exposure and there are no ethical issues with giving magic data to the public over the internet via YouTube or any other means.

Guest

Re: TAKE DOWN EXPOSURE!!!

Postby Guest » August 28th, 2007, 1:13 pm

JT

I would expect you especially to revel in the abstract nature of my post, and to run with it. Nows not the time to get Clay on me! 

As to your alternative views, consider how different copyists are from those who are unoriginal (i.e., stagnant) performers. Are you really expressing a different idea here?

How does secrecy foster stagnation? Ask folks who are experts in magic theory. But let me offer a thought by using a different concept. Do we not all generally endorse the concept that the free flow of information fosters creativity and innovation?

As a side note, folks like Jim Steinmeyer might argue that our art has lagged for 6 or 7 generations, not 1 or 2. But you and he are better qualified than I am to argue this point.

-- CHS


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