Desperately Seeking Meaning

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Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 14th, 2005, 12:07 pm

Originally posted by Werner G. Seitz:
Wrong Jon, read between the lines! :p
I said *do the best you can*...that means, nobody can do better!!!
Looks like I have to explain better what I mean..

*Do the best you can* is ment *you*/one should do the best one can do, one never can do better then so, but this also means, one does the best one can as a result of all the study, after NOT having spend too much time on the intellectual c**p, but instead concentrated to 'learn' and 'study' *the best* and then taking this into praxis..
One never can do better then the best 'one' can, nobody can that in fact, think about the frasing!!!..that was the spirit of my original posting! :D

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 14th, 2005, 12:25 pm

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
Apes and pigeons do the best they can. Humans can do better, based upon the lessons learned by others,
I thought we did better because we had opposible thumbs

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 14th, 2005, 12:59 pm

It's interesting how many people despise the concept of magic having meaning.

Originally, magic existed to appease the gods and aid the shaman in his duties.

Later, it became a performance art, complete with plots like "Will, The Witch, and the Watchman."

Now, apparently, it's nothing more than fooling people with sleights, with no regard whatever for petty things like "meaning" and "entertainment".

How sad.

I think another question might be: Why did magic LOSE it's meaning? And the follow up question: Why do we tolerate those who would devalue it, thus?

M.E.

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 14th, 2005, 1:34 pm

Fred Zimmerman,

Thanks for your "meaning" vs. "relevance" argument. It has helped me clear my head on a lot of these issues.

Searching for meaning in magic has become an object lesson in futility for me. What something means to me won't be the same as what it means to anyone else. It is just too hard to quantify. I lack the tools.

Relevance, on the other hand, is much easier for me to grasp. It is relevant or it isn't. It pertains to the matter at hand, or it doesn't. People relate to it or they don't.

Thanks again.

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 14th, 2005, 1:34 pm

Seems to me that 'doing the best you can' and 'forgetting' what has been called "the intellectual crap" are mutually exclusive.

- entity

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 14th, 2005, 1:38 pm

Pete Seeger said it already...

Where is all the magic gone?
Long time passing.
Where is all the meaning gone?
Long time ago.
Where is all the magic gone?
They've gone to graveyards, every one.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?

Terrence
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Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Terrence » December 14th, 2005, 1:53 pm

Thank you Patrick.

I prefer 'meaningful' over 'meaning' - 'relevance' is an even better word.

Can definitely relate to this.

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 14th, 2005, 1:55 pm

Right, Werner. Your last post convinced me. Lack of intellectual insight is definitely the way to go.

If I had a hammer...

-entity

Bill Duncan
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Joined: March 13th, 2008, 11:33 pm

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Bill Duncan » December 14th, 2005, 2:17 pm

Originally posted by Werner G. Seitz:
Instead stick to the basics outlined by the one and only Albert Goshman :

THE MAGIC IS YOU!!!

and forget the intellectual c**p!
I'm sorry Werner, but since you insist on using people's names for examples, I don't know how else to answer this point. I dont wish to dismiss the talents of Mr. Goshman but I've seen Albert Goshman. And I've seen Tommy Wonder, Max Maven and Peter Samuleson.

I think the "intellectual crap" is superior.

Lisa Cousins
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Location: Hollywood

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Lisa Cousins » December 14th, 2005, 3:01 pm

THE MAGIC IS YOU!!! , eh?

Well, what if YOU are intellectual?

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 15th, 2005, 12:02 am

Originally posted by Bill Duncan:
.... I dont wish to dismiss the talents of Mr. Goshman but I've seen Albert Goshman. And I've seen Tommy Wonder, Max Maven and Peter Samuleson.

I think the "intellectual crap" is superior. [/QB]
Bill, you misunderstood!
I am and was talking about the intellectual crap posted here in this topic, and not at all of the *MAGIC*/*way of presentation* any of the by you mentioned performers bring forward!
I was talking about the wording, not the magic!

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 15th, 2005, 12:03 am

Originally posted by entity:
Right, Werner. Your last post convinced me.
I really doubt you got the point!
BUT, let it be, I'm out of this....I'll not participate in a discussion where ppl are using 'wordings' that most others will make to run to the dictionairy to get something meaningsfull out of it..

THAT is my point..they are talking in a way here, they couldn't 'adress their audience with, because IF they did, they would loose them the second they opend their mouth..

Maybe the above explanation brings my 'point' forward a little better!
Enjoy..and watch out not to break a leg when running getting the dictonairy from the shelf..I didn't because I didn't went for it..

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 15th, 2005, 12:26 am

Originally posted by Lisa Cousins:
[b]THE MAGIC IS YOU!!! , eh?

Well, what if YOU are intellectual? [/b]
That's OK! :D
Then you just have MORE work to do, in order to adjust your magic and presentation to FIT your audiences!!! :p

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 15th, 2005, 2:47 am

Originally posted by Werner G. Seitz:
...Bill, you misunderstood!...
The meaning of your words (to that reader) is evident in the response your words elicited.

If you want to communicate something that will have a different meaning (to that reader) then you might want to express yourself differently.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 15th, 2005, 3:12 am

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
If you want to communicate something that will have a different meaning (to that reader) then you might want to express yourself differently.
You are correct!

What I posted should have looked like this:

Originally posted by Werner G. Seitz:
Look no further!

Instead stick to the basics outlined by the one and only Albert Goshman :

[b]THE MAGIC IS YOU!!!


and forget the intellectual c**p mentioned here in this topic re the diff. definitions of the *meaning*! ;) :p [/b]

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 15th, 2005, 5:54 am

Originally posted by Werner G. Seitz:
Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
[b]If you want to communicate something that will have a different meaning (to that reader) then you might want to express yourself differently.
You are correct!

What I posted should have looked like this:

Originally posted by Werner G. Seitz:
Look no further!

Instead stick to the basics outlined by the one and only Albert Goshman :

[b]THE MAGIC IS YOU!!!


and forget the intellectual c**p mentioned here in this topic re the diff. definitions of the *meaning*! ;) :p [/b]
[/b]
Wow. Amazing. Yes, by all means, eliminate all 'intellectual c**p'! Dumb this discussion down until it hits the level of a network sitcom.

M.E.

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 15th, 2005, 6:24 am

Originally posted by MagicalElder:
Wow. Amazing. Yes, by all means, eliminate all 'intellectual c**p'! Dumb this discussion down until it hits the level of a network sitcom.
M.E.
Wrong, just express yourself using words anybody with a normal IQ level and normal education can understand...it's actually the same 'system' one should use when putting an (meaningfull/artfull) act together, adress your specs so they understand you, make it easy for them and don't stress their mind with ununderstandable words -leave that to the deceptive magic you hopefully deliver-, then they'll understand, and probably like your magic too!

Many of the postings here are screwd up to a metaphysical state -whatever that means- instead of putting ones opinion forward plain and clear.

This doesn't prevent from getting misunderstood- as I experienced myself a couple of times in this thread, but the intention was there, anybody should be able to understand what's meant.

Reading most of the postings in this thread, this is not the case.

Lack of 'intelligence'?
Lack of education?
I doubt it..just both feets planted solid onto the ground.
:D

And, pls. forgive me any spelling errors, I'm at least using my 'real' name and don't hide behind some 'pseudoname', I'm not using a spellchecker, I don't use a dictionairy and english is not my native language.. :p

I'm definitively out of this discussion now!
Have fun and good luck!

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 15th, 2005, 6:28 am

Originally posted by MagicalElder:
... Dumb this discussion down until it hits the level of a network sitcom.
The meaning of a self indulgent display of skill or talent followed by a request for approval from those watching is almost self evident in our culture. It's an attempt to trade a display for approval. Not a bad thing for a child learning social graces.

There comes a time when social feedback needs to be part of the process lest one slide into behavior similar to autism.

Competant entertainers demonstrate some impressive social skills. How to know what routine would be special for the audience. How to know how to present that routine in a way to make it special for the audience. All about context.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 15th, 2005, 7:42 am

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
The meaning of a self indulgent display of skill or talent followed by a request for approval from those watching is almost self evident in our culture. It's an attempt to trade a display for approval. Not a bad thing for a child learning social graces.
[/QB][/QUOTE]


...or a juggler.

M.E.

Fred Zimmerman
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Location: Chicago

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Fred Zimmerman » December 15th, 2005, 1:51 pm

To Patrick Differ:

You're welcome. I can totally understand your grappling with "meaning" in magic, and I agree that's what's meaningful to you will not necessarily be meaningful to another. However, this feeling lies at the threshhold of Artistic expression.

When you express an inner thought, either visually, physically, or through the written word, within that expression lies what you find meaningful. And when you do this, you are laying yourself on the line. You are exposing a part of yourself - leaving your ideas open to judgement, ridicule, or acceptance. This is art. Again, the viewer can like it, be indifferent to it, or find it repugnant, but at least it contains something that is intrinsically YOU.

Now, in the commercial world, this kind of "personal expression and meaning" exists on a razor's edge. I want to be meaningful, certainly, but then again, I want to make a living. The two do not necessarily go hand in hand. I have been in coutless new productions where the author wants to communicate one thing, the director has different feelings, the actors are rudderless, and the producer just wants it to make money. Or, nobody in the process has a clear idea of what they want to say, and the results are justifiably predictable.

Yick.

Sometimes, the union of all these elements results in a wonderful piece of work.

Other times, they are a living and breathing nightmare - a week in, week out reminder of how ignorant people can be.

But most of the time, it's a balance. Working in the trenches of restaurants or cocktail parties, you generally have to keep the "meaning" to a minimum. This is not only expedient, but it's generally the only way to go if you actually want to get return clients.

However, even though the "meaning" may be at a minimum, you always have to dial up the "relevance." When you're competing with countless distractions, you have to cut through it all. The power of personality can get you 99% of the way there, and then actually doing something that connects to the audience and is interesting and relevant - bang, you're there.

Now, I agree, when you want to do something that has a little more depth, you have to have more control over the venue. And by depth, I don't necessarily mean dramatic and heart wrenching. What I mean by depth is communicating a personal point-of-view, a unique outlook on life translated into artistic expression. Funny, sad, quirky, whatever.

One of the movements in magic has been to mount magic within a theatrical presentation. This, I see, as very healthy. It allows many magicians who have chosen to work their whole careers under more restrictive circumstances to experience a vehicle where they have some control and can communicate some of their own personal thoughts and ideas.

Is this is ONLY way magic should be presented? Absolutely not, and to categorize these productions as "meaningful crap" is to stifle the growth of the art of magic. Do Broadway Producers look down their nose at street theatre? No way, because it's this kind of gritty, take-chances, no-holds-barred kind of performance that energizes the entire scene, and eventually results in shifting a paradigm.

I was born, grew up, and currently live in Chicago, and we're very proud of our theatrical heritage and how the off-Loop scene has made an enormous impact on the Amercian theatre.

We are equally proud of our magical heritage. Close-up magic made enormous strides and grew exponentially in the magical hothouse that was Chicago in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. Bizarre Magic has firm roots here, and certainly the effect of that movement on magic-at-large has been enormous (and may lie at the root of much of this "meaning in magic" contraversey).

Certainly, Chicago was not the only place where magic grew and evolved. However, had dissenting voices kept this from happening, we would all be the poorer.

The point is, when it rains, everyone gets wet. When a magical idea breaks new ground or develops an existing idea, everyone benefits, and woe be us all if we hold these new ideas in contempt.

Just remember, an idea is a very dangerous thing ... when it's the only one you have.

Fred Zimmerman

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 15th, 2005, 3:53 pm

I suspect that some of Werner's frustration stems from things being "lost in the translation". I respect his multi-lingual abilities, and hope that I haven't offended.

However, in what is essentially an academic discussion, we musn't be held to the same boundaries of speech or dialogue that we are when we are performing.

When discussing card effects amongst ourselves, we speak in technical and academic terms that we wouldn't use in front of an audience. Why then must we limit ourselves in an academic discussion of meaning in Magic?

- entity

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 15th, 2005, 11:40 pm

Fred Zimmerman,

That was a truly great post.

The meaning I've found, after 30 years of searching, is that the whole universe is astonishing.

And that's relevant.

I hope we meet one day.

Guest

Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Guest » December 16th, 2005, 7:33 am

>>>Now, in the commercial world, this kind of "personal expression and meaning" exists on a razor's edge. I want to be meaningful, certainly, but then again, I want to make a living. The two do not necessarily go hand in hand.>>>

So by definition, what you do is entertaining because you get paid, but meaningless. Hmmm, let's think a moment...what other type of "entertainment" fits these criteria? Oh yeah, I remember! Hint: It's legal in Nevada, except in counties with a population over a certain number.

Not that that's a bad thing.

M.E.

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Desperately Seeking Meaning

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 16th, 2005, 8:55 am

Originally posted by MagicalElder:
...what other type of "entertainment" fits these criteria? Oh yeah, I remember! Hint: It's legal in Nevada, except in counties with a population over a certain number.

Not that that's a bad thing.

M.E.
uh oh... now we are gonna get into crediting issues for the Karma Sutra and certain magazine photos.

I thought the basic meaning of a performance (for its audience) is its entertainment value for that venue and time. The questions: "Did you enjoy the show?" and "Did you enjoy your time attending the show?" seem appropriate.

Deeper meaning? You want to touch base with the part of our souls that experiences "mystery", "wonder", "surprise" etc... go for it.

As Al pointed out above, gotta keep in mind that people respond to things differently, ie some people find clowns scary. Some people respond to our tricks as a mockery of (or an attack upon) their faith. That goes back to context, like trying to serve bacon cheeseburgers at a Jewish/Muslim interfaith convention.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time


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