Piracy

[Guest]

I can gladly say that I don't. And it is besides the point, just because some people do things that are unethical does not justify our wrong doing. Even if we are acting unethically ourselves it does not mean that you can act unethically. (political reference could be the whole terrorism mess around the world. Only the victims are truly innocent)

Colin,

The only way I can see a cure for your headache is to license your products to someone. For instance, find a marketing guy and make a deal with him. He will then find the best way to produce your items and to sell them. You will simply forget it and receive your licensing fees.

I believe that one problem with creators is that they may be too close to the actual item they created. Thus, cost savings and distribution efficiency may not be their priority, hell, some engineers do not even believe in marketing (my former boss didn't understant to the need for a colour since grey worked just fine).

There is no real cure for piracy but as you can see there are a lot of people arounf who want to do the right thing. Hopefully you can take some comfort out of that and from the fact that these people are here for long-term.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by rnaviaux:
Thought I'd get this in before this thread gets locked.

How many of you that are complaining about Penguin have downloaded music from Napster back in the day? (Or other copyrighted items.)Be honest.

Sincerely,

Randy

No problem Randy, and may all your guilt be by association. Do you really want to know, or was this a demand that others feel bad about themselves?

The stated goal here is to find ways to do better than we have.

[Guest]

How many of you that are complaining about Penguin have downloaded music from Napster back in the day? (Or other copyrighted items.)Be honest.

Sincerely,

Randy

****************************************************************************************************

Randy,

I know what you are trying to say but this is something differend.
A couple of years ago we bought LP's, Singles and we listing music from a needle and had movie's from VHS tape.
There where complanes but it worked and everyone was happy.
Than there was "the industry" with a new technic!
It was digital,...much better then we used that days! We where "fools" if you did not chaged to CD and DVD!
And,....the most importand point,.....It was much cheaper to produce, so the prices where going to go down,...with a maximum of 40% in future! (first you had to pay high price's because of the new technics offcourse)
We are a couple of years further and is the price lower then the LP, VHS? Nope,...the price are much higher!
First the Industry oblige us consumers to buy new readingmachines for the new cd's and DVD and then they make the prices higher instead of lower!

Ofcourse I want a original CD from "my" populair band or artist but "my" money do not go to that artist, no it goes to the music industry bandids like SONY etc!
The music industry is complaning that nobody buy CD's and DVD anymore! Offcourse we don't! We are not stupid!
If the music industry lower there prices as promised then the most of the people wants the ORIGINAl!

So, back to magic,.....If an inventor has invented a trick with a match and a deck of cards, he can not ask for example $40.00 for it.
Simple! (I do not know the name now of that person, sorry,..this is also not personal,...I use this as an example)

Before I get lots of discusion about this,....think then what you do when you want to buy a car, chair, desk, hand tools etc.
If you want to pay lots of money for an item you want QUALITY, SERVICE and WARRANTY back for your money!
And here is the next problem,....when I by a trick and it is realy crap, I do not get my money back because of "knowing now the explanation of the effect"
This is not right also!!

make copy's of an effect? It is not right but I can "understand" why some people do this.

As mentioned before, there has to be a turn in inventing, bying and selling a magic effect.

The inventor has to make quality and stand for that with Waranty, money back when not satisfied etc. (Ther are gladly a couple of inventors/magicshops who do this allready)

Inventor has to ask a "fair" price. (Not ask $100.00 for a normal plastick box of tissue's)

Inventor has to listen to the buyers/customers so updating the effect is possible. (there are also gladly enough inventors who do this allready)

so there is more then only making rip-offs, this is "feeded" through history as described above.

Richard.

(for now an extra note,...I am not a "copyer", I allway's want the original effect but sometimes you must look further the black and white.)

[Guest]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rsmagic:
[QB] How many of you that are complaining about Penguin have downloaded music from Napster back in the day? (Or other copyrighted items.)Be honest.

Sincerely,

Randy

****************************************************************************************************

Randy,


So, back to magic,.....If an inventor has invented a trick with a match and a deck of cards, he can not ask for example $40.00 for it.
Simple! (I do not know the name now of that person, sorry,..this is also not personal,...I use this as an example)


And here is the next problem,....when I by a trick and it is realy crap, I do not get my money back because of "knowing now the explanation of the effect"
This is not right also!!

Hypatheticaly, if you invented, say an 'invisible from all angles' gimmick, that when added to your shoes, enabled you to 'levitate' surrounded, in the open, yet only cost a couple of dollars to produce. What would you consider a 'fair' price for an effect such as that?

[David Mitchell]

Thought I would copy this from penguin before it was closed or deleted. Every time I post something it vanishes. This is apparently a response from one of the people from P-Magic regarding the MM debacle.

Hi Pat,

Thanks for the email. There has been a lot of *unnecessary* controversy over the magic mints effect. We have publicly stated that our version is authorized. That is our word. That's us saying to the world, "we have made an agreement with the inventor." Now, someone on the internet is saying that we're lying. Regardless of what anyone may think of Penguin Magic, we would never lie about having an agreement with someone. What surprises me is that NO ONE has all the information, but they keep building it up and up and it's been snowballing now for a week without a straight answer. The bottom line is, we made an agreement involving payment with the inventor of the Linking Lifesavers, confirmed through the exclusive US distributor of the effect, Magic City. If after the fact, the inventor has a problem with this, he can feel free to contact me personally. There was some mention of the inventor attempting to contact Maxwell, but he did not receive any emails. If he wants to talk personally, I'm in London at the moment, I can call him directly.

I'm not sure if it'll do any good, but feel free to pass this along to anyone that wants the truth.

Acar

You know. I'm not entirely satisfied with this. It still leaves issues open and untouched, and in some cases, makes things worse. Who made an agreement with whom, and if there was one made, why is the creator not aware of it.

David.

[Guest]

Acar[/QUOTE]You know. I'm not entirely satisfied with this. It still leaves issues open and untouched, and in some cases, makes things worse. Who made an agreement with whom, and if there was one made, why is the creator not aware of it.

David. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I have tried to post a reply but I get the message: INVALID SESSION. They will not let me post a response. Maxwell and all at Penguin have got my e.mail add. and my home phone number etc. etc. but I get nothing. No replies to e.mails and no Phone call's are returned.

[Jonathan Townsend]

As one inventor whose work has been taken public without permission, to another whose work is being copied, Colin...

It makes us look more like sane citizens when we state our desires, and intentions in a way that folks can understand. It also helps to phrase these sentiments in a way that allows the rest of the community to sympathize and perhaps be moved to assist in the efforts.

What would you like to happen? What does your authorized vendor want to happen?

Okay, enough sanity for one day ... back to my usual ranting about abstract stuff.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
As one inventor whose work has been taken public without permission, to another whose work is being copied, Colin...

It makes us look more like sane citizens when we state our desires, and intentions in a way that folks can understand. It also helps to phrase these sentiments in a way that allows the rest of the community to sympathize and perhaps be moved to assist in the efforts.

What would you like to happen? What does your authorized vendor want to happen?

I would like to stop the sale of Magic Mints.
If by my Authorised vendor you mean Martin Breese then I imagine he would like the same. I hope thats what you needed to know, I'm sorry if it isn't but (I don't want to apper dumb here) I don't really understand the question.

[Guest]

Colin, what is your's and/or Martin's affiliation with Magic City? How do they come into play in this issue?

[David Scollnik]

Originally posted by Colin Gilbert:
I have tried to post a reply but I get the message: INVALID SESSION. They will not let me post a response. Maxwell and all at Penguin have got my e.mail add. and my home phone number etc. etc. but I get nothing. No replies to e.mails and no Phone call's are returned.

Did you register on the Penguin forums, first? It is easy to do; otherwise, I can't imagine why you are unable to post there.

[Guest]

Colin Gilbert and Penguin have no agreement whatsoever. I can not believe the lies that are spread about a simple magic trick. What is Magic City's involvement? Magic City are my exclusive US distributors and they sell Linking Lifesavers that I buy from Colin Gilbert. I have made Penguin an offer to purchase the US manufacturing rights from Colin for the sum of $5000 to end this problem and we await and answer. Let me repeat that Colin and Penguin have not entered into any agreement so far. Colin has not authorised the production of this rip off item. Magic Makers are presumably making this for Penguin on Penguin's instructions which allow Penguin to say that they are not making this trick and just selling it. What a devious way to do business! The mind boggles.
Martin

[Guest]

Originally posted by Martin R Breese:
What is Magic City's involvement? Magic City are my exclusive US distributors and they sell Linking Lifesavers that I buy from Colin Gilbert. I have made Penguin an offer to purchase the US manufacturing rights from Colin for the sum of $5000 to end this problem and we await and answer.

Origionally, (from what I recall) Penguin had stated that Magic City was the manufacturer of Magic Mints. Have you or Colin contacted them?

[Guest]

Originally posted by Wayno:

Originally posted by Martin R Breese:
[b] What is Magic City's involvement? Magic City are my exclusive US distributors and they sell Linking Lifesavers that I buy from Colin Gilbert. I have made Penguin an offer to purchase the US manufacturing rights from Colin for the sum of $5000 to end this problem and we await and answer.

Origionally, (from what I recall) Penguin had stated that Magic City was the manufacturer of Magic Mints. Have you or Colin contacted them? [/b]

Sorry, this is what Maxwell had stated.
"I have never spoken with Colin directly. The deal was put together through Magic City (the US distributor of the Linking Lifesavers item). (That's where I sent your check, Colin.)"

Has anyone asked Magic City what they have to say about this?

[Guest]

Stop! Stop! Stop!This is getting confusing now.
I supply Martin
Martin supplies Magic city.
Magic Maker's make the rip-off's and supply Penguin. Who Incendentally on this forum, Maxwell state's he has never had contact or spoken to me personaly, and now you have paste/quote from 'Acar' stating they 'made an agreement with the inventor'.

[David Scollnik]

I would think that if Penguin really is in the clear on this one, that they would IMMEDIATELY PROVE it to Genii and then DEMAND that this topic be locked down, or else IMMEDIATELY withdraw all future advertising from that magazine.

I wonder if such discussions are presently ongoing?

[Richard Kaufman]

I'm not going to make any comments about this thread at the moment other than to say this (and my statement is not meant to indicate that I'm "siding" with either party):

Penguin have publicly stated that they have paid Magic City (who is in fact the authorized distributor of this trick in the United States) a sum of money that is designated for the inventor.

I'm not really sure what that means, since the person who invented the trick, Colin Gilbert, and the person who supplies Magic City, Martin Breese, don't seem to know anything about this payment.

Someone DIRECTLY INVOLVED in this should really call Magic City and talk to one of the Kirchners and get a clear picture of exactly what's going on before going ballistic on this Forum.

So I would greatly appreciate if everyone just cools it for a while until this vital piece of information has been obtained.

[John LeBlanc]

Originally posted by Colin Gilbert:
Can we all agree that patents are of little use for the majority of magic effects? If so what I mean when I say a 'governing body' is, not the patent office as we know it but more on the lines of a group of people within the magic community where effects could be sent (similar to sending one for a review) where the effect would be given a registration date/number etc. and then simply filed as proof of ownership.(without being published of course).
Any infringements on this would result in the necessary actions being taken by this committee to stop the violators advertising etc. Obviously money for damages would be down to the individual inventor to pursue. But with some sort of proof from the 'committee' a charge of fraud may carry more weight. But at least the violators would be stopped in their tracks. If all agreed from the start - each magic magazine, convention organisers, links on web-sites etc. surely it would go a long way to stopping the rip-off merchants?

Colin, I've read this thread twice now, and I truly feel for your position.

The problem with any set of internal "laws" or governing body is it finds itself in the same sort of situation as do gun control laws. The premise behind them is noble, but the object of the law -- both literally and figuratively -- seeks to modify the behavior of people who have already shown a propensity to ignore laws in the first place.

It's like threatening to kick Penn & Teller out of the IBM when they are not a member in the first place.

We cannot shame pirates into compliance. The only thing we can do is encourage other like minded people to avoid doing business with pirates. And that goes for people who support pirates, too.

What's left is fighting the good fight. Telling your story and relying on good and decent people to do what's right. That's the council Jim Steinmeyer gave to me ten or twelve or so years ago and it's as relevant today as it was then.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX

[Chris Aguilar]

Originally posted by Colin Gilbert:

I have tried to post a reply but I get the message: INVALID SESSION. They will not let me post a response.

Actually, it's due to the fact that they haven't updated their forums software (I know because I do official tech support for phpBB) and you're likely using something like aol or another isp that causes problems with their out of date forums software. (this being the main cause of the "invalid session" issue) It's likely not anything insidious, just plain laziness on the part of their tech person.

However, phpBB is an open source project (read free) and in return for its use, the developers ask only that those running the script keep the phpBB copyright link (in tiny text) at the bottom of each forum. I notice that the penguin forums (which use phpBB) have made sure to remove that copyright notice. I guess this disrespect for the developers of a script they use for free should not come as a surprise.


______________________________________________________
www.conjurenation.com - 'Cards Only' Forums'

[Guest]

"Colin" (if it is really you) :rolleyes:

even if your accusations are true.....why not be a gentlemen about it and go about this whole situation more civilized?

Instead you would prefer to stir up controversy on the genii forums?

The smarter move would have been to try harder to contact Max or Acar......they are both very busy guys and it is understandable that phone messages can be forgotten. Don't you think?

[Guest]

Originally posted by Chris Aguilar:

Originally posted by Colin Gilbert:

I have tried to post a reply but I get the message: INVALID SESSION. They will not let me post a response.

Actually, it's due to the fact that they haven't updated their forums software (I know because I do official tech support for phpBB) and you're likely using something like aol or another isp that causes problems with their out of date forums software. (this being the main cause of the "invalid session" issue) It's likely not anything insidious, just plain laziness on the part of their tech person.

However, phpBB is an open source project (read free) and in return for its use, the developers ask only that those running the script keep the phpBB copyright link (in tiny text) at the bottom of each forum. I notice that the penguin forums (which use phpBB) have made sure to remove that copyright notice. I guess this disrespect for the developers of a script they use for free should not come as a surprise.


______________________________________________________
[b] www.conjurenation.com - 'Cards Only' Forums' [/b]

did you ever consider the fact that they could very well be paying php for such thing?

[Guest]

stealing is stealing, magic or mp3, there is no justification for stealing anything...ever.

now that we have that solved....

Penguin magic are a group of good guys (they're human and mistakes like all of us do)

I've known them for a long time now and they have the best intensions. If they say they paid to have it then they did, if not then it's a simple missunderstanding... put down the rope..

It's amazing how often forums are used to bitch about things when a simple conversation with the person themselves would have solved the problem.

Instead we like to smear people through the gutter while bitching back and forth with stupid points with no REAL value to each other (because nobody listens in these sorts of conversations)just so that we can become a pack of wolves!

So.. please... contact these people, be polite to them when you talk, your limited "perspectives" can make you look very small in the end when you're wrong.

-Joel Payne

[Chris Aguilar]

Originally posted by cowboy4ever:
did you ever consider the fact that they could very well be paying php for such thing?

Did you ever consider that I work for the developers of phpBB in an offical capacity and can state with some authority that no such option has ever been offered? We (the official support team) are even instructed to withold support for those rude enough to begrudge the creators their very small copyright notice. (You know, folks like Penguin) ;) It's not technically illegal to remove it, but it is a crappy thing to do, depriving the creators of even the most cursory credit (said ity bitsy copyright line) for something they kindly offer for free.

To wit (from the official phpBB site)

Members who remove (or fail to display on their own template) this message will receive no support here.

Quite simply put, you don't know what you're talking about. I've spoken with the developers and they take a very strong view against those who can't even be bothered to credit them (in a way that cost the user nothing) for their hard work.

And like some others here, I'm not about to take folks seriously who have need to hide behind a pseudonym. Merely saying "well, it's the pseudonym I use on all the other forums" does not lend you one iota of additional credibility.

[David Scollnik]

I remember several months ago when someone from the phpBB developers group or support team showed up on the Penguin boards, making the point that Penguin had removed their copyright notice. Actually, here is the thread:

http://www.penguinmagic.com/discuss/vie ... hp?t=48663

Check cowboy's response back then. At least his ignorance on the matter is consistent.

[Edwin Corrie]

This may or may not be relevant, but on browsing through some old Geniis last night I saw a product review of Colin Gilbert's Linking Lifesavers, and the supplier was Tannens. It must have been a 1980s or early 1990s issue - I can check again if it's of any interest. If not, just ignore this post.

[Guest]

Originally posted by cowboy4ever:
"Colin" (if it is really you)

The smarter move would have been to try harder to contact Max or Acar......they are both very busy guys and it is understandable that phone messages can be forgotten. Don't you think?

I have tried a lot harder to contact them than they EVER tried to contact me. If you found out you were being 'robbed' would you wait for the people responsible to contact you? They have got all the contact info they require to contact me-if they had done so, do you really believe I would waste mine or anybody else's time with this? Don't you think?
Why don't you send a message to Max and Acar and 'jog' their memories for me?

[Richard Kaufman]

Since no one has paid any attention to my post, I'm locking this thread.
I will open the thread again once one of the people directly involved contacts Magic City and gets a straight answer regarding Penguin's claim of sending them a check for the inventor. So, once that's been done, e-mail me privately with the request to unlock the thread and post the result of the phone call.

[Richard Kaufman]

This message just in from Maxwell Murphy of Penguin:

I'm sorry I haven't been able to address this sooner and in more detail.
I've been out of town at a funeral. Here's exactly what happened.

I became aware that the Magic Mints product was about to be released
by Magic Makers.

I called up Gerald at Magic City and told him about the product. Magic City is the US distributor of the Linking Lifesavers effect so I figured he was in communication with the people producing Linking Lifesavers. I told Gerald that I wanted to carry the Magic Mints because it's a great trick and at $14.95 it would be a great value for our customers. I asked Gerald to contact Colin Gilbert to see if he could put together a deal to give us permission to market Magic Mints as an authorized version of Linking Lifesavers.

Gerald got back to me a couple of days later with a dollar figure. If we paid Colin Gilbert x dollars he would "authorize" the new less expensive version of the Linking Lifesavers effect.

As soon as I had this authorization I contacted Magic Makers, Inc. and informed them that I had purchased the rights to sell Magic Mints as an
authorized version of Linking Lifesavers, and I purchased their entire stock on the item. That's why you don't currently see Magic Mints on
their website--they're out of stock.

I sent the check to Colin Gilbert (through Magic City), and I made a special trip to New York to film the demo of Magic Mints with Oz. We got
great footage and released the product with great excitement. Everything was perfect. I felt great about the deal.

The next thing I heard was that Martin Breeze (Colin's UK distributor of Linking Lifesavers) was upset. I called Gerald and asked him why we were
taking heat from Martin. He said that Martin wasn't happy about the deal we made with Colin. I didn't pay too much attention to it because Colin
was our guy and he had made a deal with us.

I was busy working for the next few days... Focusing on the show we're producing and putting together the final details for our Escape for the
Troops fund raiser.

Finally, yesterday, I heard that someone claiming he was Colin had posted saying that he had never heard of us and that we never made a deal with
him. My first response was to call Gerald at Magic City. I told Gerald what I had read on the Genii forum. Gerald said "that's crazy". I said,
"do we have a deal with Colin?" He said, "yes".

Gerald is one of the most honorable people in the magic world. He runs one of the top distributors of magic in the world. I don't think he's
lying to me. He has nothing to gain by lying to me.

We tried to do it right by paying for permission to sell the item, and it just went wrong. I have been in e-mail communication with Colin as of two
days ago, and I'm working with Gerald to find out how the deal ended up looking so different from each side.

Sincerely,

Maxwell Murphy
Penguin Magic

[Guest]

So why don't you contact ME direct? Why do I have to keep going on about it on here? There are more interesting things going on in the Magic World than you getting 'free' publicity on here. From my point of view and many others that actually know you, it appears that YOU ARE A LIAR AND A CHEAT and have no place within the magic community.This isn't the first case you have had to defend. Yes you may do charitable things, but you make sure everyone gets to know about it. Genuine charitable workers do not broadcast their good work at every opportunity. One last time, Withdraw Magic Mints or contact me direct. No more posting on here what you supposedly did what with who-ever and when, people want to see this resolved. So resolve it with the correct person.

[Guest]

Why would Colin Gilbert the inventor of Linking Lifesavers ever accept the idea of endorsing Magic Mints as an authorised version of his own effect? Maxwell is talking a lot of nonsense.

Where is the cheque that Maxwell has supposedly given to Colin Gilbert? Colin hasn't seen it.

I have had enough of this subject and hope that Penguin take themselves off to hibernate whilst they think about how stocking and selling rip-off products encourages piracy!

[Jonathan Townsend]

If I'm reading the discussion correctly, we are now looking at Magic City and pondering a break in communications between Colin and the folks at Penguin. Martin is also surprised as he was not informed of any new distribution agreement by Colin.

I'm not good at following complicated stories. Is the plot status above about right? I get confused.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
If I'm reading the discussion correctly, we are now looking at Magic City and pondering a break in communications between Colin and the folks at Penguin. Martin is also surprised as he was not informed of any new distribution agreement by Colin.

I'm not good at following complicated stories. Is the plot status above about right? I get confused.

I was contacted by Martin to inform me that he had been informed that Penguin were selling a rip-off of my effect. He had contacted them and they had offered me $1000 'damages'. I told Martin I wasn't inerested in any 'pay-off' (please read Martins original post that started this topic) I also contacted Penguin by 'phone and e.mail but no response. They continue to advertise and still use my name. They now say they did a 'deal' in my absence with Magic city, (though not Martin personally). They state that they put this so called 'deal' together and sent the check and then bought out the entire stock from Magic Makers. I asked 'Max' when he started selling magic mints and what was the date on the check. Surely the date on the check should be at least a couple of days prior to when they started selling Magic Mints? In the one short e.mail I recieved back he stated that couldn't remember when he started to sell them and he couldn't remember what the date on the check was. This 'Check' that he supposedly sent to Magic city has still yet to arrive. Anywhere.

[Jamie Badman]

Surely if Penguin have obtained the rights to sell this version of Magic Mints, via Colin Gilbert or Martin Breese (it seems that one of these two would be the correct person to obtain the rights from, not Magic City who appear to be simply a distributor) then... there's a contract ?!

If there's no contract or anything similarly binding then I don't see how Penguin can lay claim to anything. Isn't it that simple - or have I misunderstood something here ?

Penguin could settle this here and now by declaring the existence of this contract. If there isn't a contract and Penguin continue to sell without permission then I imagine it's headed to the courts.

BTW, Max... just a thought - if you DID send a cheque payable to Colin Gilbert, you may want to check if it's been cashed and if it has, find out what bank the cheque was paid in to. I imagine it should be a UK bank but if it's a U.S. bank perhaps something murkier is going on ;-)

Let us know... this beats any soap opera on TV at the moment!

Jamie.

[Guest]

Max has my B.S. detector going off big time. Magic City agreed to let another company produce a knock off that sales at a much lower cost? That defies logic.
Steve V

[Randy Naviaux]

"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by rnaviaux:
Thought I'd get this in before this thread gets locked.

How many of you that are complaining about Penguin have downloaded music from Napster back in the day? (Or other copyrighted items.)Be honest.

Sincerely,

Randy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No problem Randy, and may all your guilt be by association. Do you really want to know, or was this a demand that others feel bad about themselves?

The stated goal here is to find ways to do better than we have. "


Jonathan Townsend

My point was this: I have met several magicians that have explained how stealing magic is bad. All of them had downloaded music from Napster and freely admitted it to me. They didn't seem contrite to say the least. In fact they bragged about how many songs they had in their "collection".

Personally, if you are stealing I find it hard to take you seriously when you start to complain about someone else doing it. (Double Standard?)


Sincerely,

Randy

Edited for clarity

[Guest]

Im sure max is lying ALL the way.

This is NOT the only knock off item penguin is selling.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Change happens at the insistence of those who will it.
Significant change requires more commitment than righteousness.

Beyond open discourse, what would serve to get us further along toward a positive outcome here?

[Guest]

Ethics! That's the answer.

But let us not cover ourselves with a warm nice blanket of being small individuals versus large corporations etc.

Being ethical is not doing more good than harm or stealing only from those who can affoard it. But we use that logic, don't we? It is okay to download music sold by Sony because it doesn't hurt anyone. How many has used that argument?

It is okay to advertise an effect with hyperbole because the reader should know better. Sounds familiar?

Everybody is doing it. I spend so much money on crap I deserve to copy this. I didn't know. There is no law agaist it. It all just sounds so very familiar (and I plead guilty for all counts).

Ethics starts from doing what is required by regulations, norms, and social contracts. But it does not stop there, it will continue by doing what one thinks is right. If in doubt, don't do it.

I am upset when I read a description of an effect and after buying it I see that it was all just a well written copy. Where is the ethics in that?
Or when I receive an expensive item that is readily being sold in a hardware store across the road for a fraction of the price. Now is that fair?

I think everyone should take a good look into the mirror and consider their own actions. After that, go and do business with those who you believe has also been staring at their mirror.

In defence of magazines:
That all being said I would still like to defend Genii and Magic magazine. Why? Because I am also involved with media related business, I can truly feel for them. Magazines are not selling any items directly. They need people to buy the magazine and companies to advertise in them. That way we can get quality writing (dare I say journalism) for a reasonable price every month. With such a business it is crucial to get those advertisers because otherwise there would be no readers. So what can they do? With a magic store the business is different.They can make their profits by selling original items, there should be no real reason for knock-offs other than greed (that is, if the original seller are holding their end of the bargain and constantly try to find ways of producing the items effectively).

In my pecking order, in this case, for ethical behaviour the first one is the maker, then the dealer, thirdly the customer (yes, we do have responsibilities), and only the fourt place would be reserved for any sort of advertising medium.

Naturally I would find it odd if after this discussion there would be ads specifically dedicated to knock-off items but I cannot see how a magazine could survive without 4-6 pages of advertisements (I don't believe there is a long waiting list for the advertisement space in any magic medium).

What's the point of my rant? We should all act ethically. The dealers, the creators, the customers, and the supporting media. Yes, naive isn't it? But it is the only way out of this mess and it will serve everyone. That way we would have more inventions available, and better prices. As a magician and a customer, would you relese an invention you made? Soon most people may say no.

Please note, I did not want to refer to any specific company or person because I think this is valid no matter the outcome of the current debate. I also believe this "bigger picture" is the reason this thread is so heated.

[Jonathan Townsend]

in answer to Randy,

Yes Randy, I have done stupid and regrettable things. I have met few people who have not done stupid and regrettable things. I have also met some people who have moved ahead and now choose not to do stupid and regrettable things.

Rather than wallow in the past, I am suggesting we spend some time focusing on the benefits of moving forward.

While we await clarification on the particular issue that brought forth these threads, we can consider what the issue means to us, and how we might like to see these issues handled in the future. I've invested some effort posting some options and suggestions.

What are your thoughts?

[Richard Kaufman]

I have reopened this topic at the request of Gerald Kirchner of Magic City, who has this to add:

Hello, my name is Gerald Kirchner. I work for Magic City, an L.A. based magic distributor.
http://www.magicity.com

I recently became aware of this thread, and would like to make some comments. I might be able to shed light on the subject. A week or so ago, I
was informed Penguin Magic was selling an item that we distribute, "Linking Lifesavers," retitled "Magic Mints."

I called Maxwell, the owner of Penguin Magic, to ask what was up. Maxwell said he didn't know there was a debate with this item. I explained that we
distribute Linking Lifesavers for Martin Breese and Collin Gilbert and that Magic Mints was clearly the same trick published later. Maxwell wanted to fix the problem and agreed to remove Magic Mints from his site until we could reach an accord. Maxwell later agreed to pay Collin a sum of money, to include his name in the Magic Mints product description, and sell both tricks.

Shortly after that initial contact, I e-mailed Martin Breese about the deal and he talked with Collin. Martin wrote back and agreed to the terms.
Maxwell placed the item back on his web site conforming to the agreement and bought the remaining stock of Linking Lifesavers.

In the meantime, Martin and Collin discussed the matter further, and Collin decided that he didn't like the deal. As of now, there is no agreement
between Collin and Penguin. Penguin has marked Magic Mints out of stock on their web site.

I see this happen all the time, and knew Collin wouldn't be able to legally protect Linking Lifesavers. I was trying to get him some money as I figured he deserved as much compensation as possible. Penguin was the only company to stand up and offer Collin money, when in fact other stores carry Magic Mints too.

I don't know about the other problems discussed here regarding Penguin, but I felt the need to make these few comments to try and clear up an otherwise murky issue. I do not condone the actions of Magic Makers - the manufacturer
of Magic Mints.

Best wishes,
Gerald Kirchner

[Bill Palmer]

Originally posted by Opie R.:

The individual creator just does not have enough power to frighten anybody. WAM tried to stop thefts, but it died for lack of long-term support of the major magic clubs and the knowledge of violators that nobody could touch them.

opie

That is not the complete reason that WAM "died" as you say. If you want the real reason, I suggest you contact Walter Blaney.