Piracy

[Bill Duncan]

It was ever thus...

Originally posted by Opie R.:
The old masters took enough pride in their secrets to take them to the grave and did not try to con great masses of young kids into buying them....

Perhaps the creators didnt but someone did:
Expert Card Technique.
Unauthorized speculation.

Is this worse or better than what Penguin has done? Does it matter?

We can and should boycott Penguin. The fact that others have done the same or worse does not mitigate their actions, nor should it give them a free pass.

[Steve V]

I am with Geno on the name...is it an attempt make folks think they are dealing with Maxwell or Murphy?
Steve V

[Guest]

Originally posted by Maxwell Murphy, Penguin Magic:
We would rather everyone bought Linking Lifesavers at $45 (we quite a bit more each time we sell one), but we understand that not everyone has $45 for a $.05 gimmick.

I do agree there, not everyone does have $45 for a $.05 gimmick. But you still charge upwards of $15 for a .05 gimmick. My, 'gimmick' on the other hand is worth far more than $.05 and you know it and I have it on good authority that it is one of MY lifesavers that you use in your advertising video. Yet again you are conning your customers. I am not giving away any secret here as the gimmick has been exposed in many reviews over the years, (and it's my secret to give away anyway). You say you haven't recieved any e.mails from me, that is another lie. To quote you from your earlier post you 'figured you would try to put a deal together with Colin before you started selling it.' So you intended selling it anyway? That is what this 'Check' is all about. You didn't boither to contact me at all, you didn't even reply to my e.mails after you realised that I knew. Only after all the flack you have recieved you probably sent a check for What amount? Who too? Who decided the value? This isn't the way to conduct a reputable business. The Genuine Lifesavers that you speak about, who supplies them to you? Certainly not me. Same rip-off different package? But customers go away with a clear concience thinking they have bought the genuine article.
Meanwhile you NOW KNOW I am not happy so why won't you stop selling Magic Mints? You will stop eventually and publish that you have done the honourable thing, but not untill you have flooded the market with inferior, cheap worthless tat and then laughed all the way to the bank. Not only laughing at me but also each and every customer you have ripped-off.
If you are an honest man with a reputable company as you say, withdraw Magic Mints today.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Maxwell Murphy, Penguin Magic:

But, we're actually not market vultures at all. We don't manufacture knock-offs. All of the products we manufacture are innovative. We do sell knock-offs, and we don't think they're wrong or bad for magic, but we don't manufacture them ourselves... that's just not what gets us excited. We're innovators. We like working extra hard and coming up with new stuff and better products.

Are faked Rolexes, Fendi bags etc. also acceptable. What if they would be sold by Tiffany?

I suggest everyone to real The Art of Steal book. There are some excellent thoughts on fake items that can also be connected to knock-off items.

I truly cannot follow your logic. You want to be innovative but if some one copies your idea and produces it in some 3rd world country very cheaply you are ok with that? You would not mind if I would take your ideas, find some poor kinds in Estonia to manufacture them, and sell them via ellusionist?

At the same time, if you could, as if Jay Sankey would mind that either? I am packing my bags and off to Estonia to find some employees, will take orders shortly.

[Guest]

I thought of one. Penguin sells Neil Tobin's The Xpert. Neil put a lot of time, effort, and thought into that product. He based it on Kenton Knepper's "X" manuscript, and made a real contribution to magic with this excellent product.

But, the gimmick it uses can be made easily by anyone, using common office supplies. What if I were to start cranking out the gimmicks, typed up some instructions that gave away all of the effects and routines in Neil's booklet and website, not as well-written and in my own words, then put it together in a package and called X-it? Would Penguin Magic sell that for $10 a pop?

That's a rhetorical question. Maxwell has just said that he would. "We do sell knock-offs." The new slogan for Penguin Magic. People, don't let Maxwell sugar-coat it: knock-offs are stolen goods. Pure and simple. In the scenario I outlined above, I would be stealing Neal Tobin's intellectual property. He did all the work, all I would be doing in such a case is cashing in on his work at his expense. He did the research and development, the marketing, the patient and generous donating of his time to answer questions asked by a bunch of kiddies at Penguin, and all I would have to do is crank out the cheap copies of his words and cobble together the same gimmicks he invented.

Maxwell Murphy wouldn't "get excited" enough to do that, but he admitted he has no scruples about selling it if I did.

Well, I do have ethics and I would never rip Neil Tobin off like that. I have too much respect for him, for the magic profession, and for myself to do that. Besides which I believe in God and would not knowingly violate the law, "You shall not steal." Number eight in the Ten Commandments, remember?

"Time will tell that we're an innovative and ethical company, and we'll win the confidence of the magic community." - Maxwell Murphy

God help us all if that prophecy comes true. If Maxwell's brand of "ethics" does win the confidence of the magic community, what incentive is there for the thinkers and creators of new magic to release it to anyone in any manner? If the magic community is okay with stealing such intellectual property, no sensible creator will release anything but junk that's so bad, he doesn't care whether it's stolen or not.

Robert V Frazier

P.S. I have read The Art of the Steal: How to Protect Yourself and Your Business from Fraud, America's #1 Crime by Frank W. Abagnale. (You may have heard of his first book, Catch Me If You Can, recently a movie was made from it staring Leonardo DeCaprio and Tom Hanks.) The Art of the Steal is an excellent book, and the chapter on knock-offs explains just what's wrong with selling them. It's just as much stealing as is making the knock-offs. Worse in some ways, because without retailers to sell them, the counterfeiters who crank out the knock-offs would have no market outside of back alleys and 7-11 parking lots.

[CHRIS]

Reminds me on a recent NBC Dateline report about the knock off market and producers in China. The bottom line was that it is extremely tough to counter such widespread activities.

Chris Wasshuber
Lybrary.com preserving magic one book at a time.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Robert_V_Frazier:
... "We do sell knock-offs." The new slogan for [STOP! ABEND!]...

This path is just a step away from making the argument that anyone selling a zombie, chop cup, glorpy, invisible deck, 3fly, ... is no better, and that once muddied, only the waters of commerce in our free market can clean our hands again. Shades of Macbeth! Will not an internet of knowledge wash this mud from our faces?

If the guy and 'that company' can reach an agreement about the manufacture and distribution of HIS trick... great.

Let's work with the positive things here. Their discussion seems to have started and we can support their efforts to seek a win/win outcome. I for one have no idea how this situation evolved, so will not offer comment beyond suggesting that a roll of lifesavers seems a pretty cool substitute for a purse full of coins. Jumbo lifesavers? Explosion made from lifesavers? Lots of options here.

* yes i did mention my coin trick above. I do not recall being asked or giving permission for that thing to go public. I feel there is nothing to be gained by stopping/reversing the wheels of the machine ... and instead am suggesting we replace some parts of that machine.

Can we have some more space in print for those who wish to announce/perform novel effects? Beyond first showing the thing in front of magicians, wouldn't it be great to get public notice? Perhaps we can institutionalize this process of recognizing novelty and honoring those who have realized these novel conceptions.

Richard, does this work for you in the magazine? As part of the write ups for conventions and meetings etc?

[Guest]

Bill, I do not like companies which PREY ON KIDS. Most of them will also not hesitate to rip off new routines and effects that enter the market. It is the nature of that type of beast.

The most-obvious solutions are to boycott them, publically ridicule them, or take them on legally...The latter solution is usually not cost effective; ridicule just fills threads like this and gets them more business; and boycotting them does not work, because starry-eyed young kids, with more money than they need, seldom know about nor care about the boycott.

In the meantime, "inventers" see in the kiddie webs an opportunity to peddle a two-dollar trick for fifty bucks. Now, I don't have any problem with people making money, but I really do have a problem with exploitation. It only serves to attract more and more rip-off magic shops, and the wide-eyed kids just keep buying the crap, most of which has appeared in books and magazines of yesterday.

Hey, let us all recall what we should have learned in kindergarden; we are not supposed to touch other people's things, and we are supposed to look after one another, not exploit each other.

If the shoe fits......

opie

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Opie R.:
...If the shoe fits...

Wear it?
Buy it?
Make your own?
Mass produce them?

How do you feel about the use of magazines to announce new stuff, and a policy of making such novelties hands off in the market place?

Yes folks, this is an ethical question. Does this suggested policy make good sense to you?

[Guest]

The problem of setting up a police force in a free-enterprise system is that there is a tendency for the peer pigs on the force to become more equal than the others.

Jonathan, I have read enough of your stuff to know that you are not naive enough to think that you can stop a money-making practice in a free-enterprise system. Remember how the government announced that it was going to cut out booze and drugs?

We do not differ in our abhorrence of the topics addressed here.

One of my favorite characters is Don Quixote, and I love a person who won't give up; keep on keeping on!

opie

[Jonathan Townsend]

I'm suggesting that there are some benefits to publishing findings of novelties as they are presented. It might make a nice column in the magazine and could even be popular... kind of like when discoveries are shown on the news.

And that THOSE WHO CARE will notice these things and respect the inventor's wishes about the material. This could lead to a publication of the full item/method, a small private market for the item or a larger manufacturing setup.

Sure, there will always be copyists and profiteers. The free market supports the demand as presented. Ultimately it is the responsibility of us as adults to own the effects of our demand.

The good habits of MOST of the community will probably provide for most inventors.

[Guest]

Just to let you all know I am still e.mailing the relevant people at Penguin and the magazines and the web sites that penguin advertise on but as yet only Phil Wilmarth of the linking ring has replied. Nothing from any of the others. not even a reply to say the are considering my particular case. I hope I'm wrong but it appears to be a case of 'Honour amongst thieves'. Penguin steal from me and their advertisers share the spoils. So up until now ethics and honest living I suppose have stopped me from copying other peoples effects. It is wrong, but through these forums I have read comments like 'you're on you're own kid' and 'don't whine or whinge if you haven't spent a fortune protecting it' and 'What's wrong if someone improves on your idea?' So who can stop me from selling any copy of any effect on e.bay? Twisted sisters? NFW? etc. etc. If theres no patent etc. on the effect what are you going to do. Get in touch with ebay to stop me? why, what am I legaly doing wrong? How can they stop me 'fair trade' (as was also quoted) as what Legal offence would I be commiting? Belive me, judging by the e.mails I have recieved I am not the only one beginning to think this way. There is a lot of 'would be rip-off merchants' watching and waiting for the outcome on this.
As a final note, to quote Maxwell 'a $.05 gimmick' If the gimmicks he is selling cost him that much how good is it? a faked (double faced) card for example would cost considerably more than that.

[Guest]

Jonathan and Colin:

The windmills are winning....keep on hacking...I admire your energy.....opie

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Colin Gilbert:
Just to let you all know I am still e.mailing the relevant people at Penguin and the magazines and the web sites that penguin advertise on ...

Colin, If you have a product to sell, how about dropping a note to a few of your potential customers? Or just posting notice about the status of your inventions.

Joe Porper and James Riser have been making things and selling some things for quite a while. Folks who want some of their work can contact them. If they have mass produced the item, they can get passed along to an AUTHORIZED retail outlet.

Even the small guys can work with a local shop to handle the on-site sales etc.

[Pete Biro]

Penguin's post reminds me about one from Spina/Tannen's years ago where he JUSTIFIED selling knock-offs because his customers wanted a trick that he did not have the rights to sell, let along manufacture.

Triple Argh!!!!!!!!!!!

What greedy jerks.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:

Originally posted by Colin Gilbert:
[b] Just to let you all know I am still e.mailing the relevant people at Penguin and the magazines and the web sites that penguin advertise on ...

Colin, If you have a product to sell, how about dropping a note to a few of your potential customers? Or just posting notice about the status of your inventions.

Joe Porper and James Riser have been making things and selling some things for quite a while. Folks who want some of their work can contact them. If they have mass produced the item, they can get passed along to an AUTHORIZED retail outlet.

Even the small guys can work with a local shop to handle the on-site sales etc. [/b]

There's the rub. I have been selling through an authorised retail outlet, but unfortunately someone connected to Penguin has bought one and so here we are. The only power we seem to have is the Magazines etc. blocking adverts but most just don't seem bothered. Keep an eye on ebay. It appears that's the only way to fight back. Dirty. Un-ethical. I know but if you can't beat 'em etc. etc. etc. If anyone can tell me how I can be stopped from selling on ebay (as they won't stop my adverts) then maybe I might get some insight into what to do about Penguin. Maybe if I rip someone else off and someone rips me off and some else rips someone else etc. etc. Keep an eye on ebay. Sounds like there's going to be some bargains!

[Jonathan Townsend]

Could this mean the discount stuff on ebay might be penguin droppings?

[Guest]

Anything I can get my 'grubby, dirty, money grabbing thieving hands on. I won't make them of course it, er, will er, be a 'manufacturer' you understand, I will purley be an honest 'dealer' working towards the good for all magicians. Honest. So anything you fancy? Just name it. Drop me an e.mail and I will beat any price. Or how about a make your own service? Tell me what you want to know and for a couple of dollars I will send you the necessary info. How about a new Website - www.anythingyouneededtoknowaboutmagicbutwereafraidtoask.com?
Who could stop me advertising on that?
See how easy it is? So if anyone realy cares about this art ask the relevant mags and web-sites that Penguin advertise on what they intend to do. 'we'll wait and see the outcome' will probably be their reply. Well if nothing is done to force the correct outcome the only outcome will be that Penguin will continue to rip everyone else off with 'Legitimate Knock-off's'????? Like Maxwell say's Theres nothing wrong in that. Keep watching ebay.

[Guest]

At this point it looks like the manufacturer of these Magic Mints may have pulled a fast one on Penguin. Not to mention a fast one on everyone who assumed Penguin was the culprit. Well, the story is still unfolding. Hopefully all the information will come out soon, to find out just exactly what the heck happend.

Has anyone contacted the manufacturers yet? I think that is where this mess all started. Both for Colin, and for Penguin.

[Guest]

I am appalled to hear people speaking of selling knock-offs of someone's products as retaliation. I don't know who is kidding and who is not.

But at any rate, I would like to make something clear about why I am in this thread.

Here we are, trying to help a fellow magician out with his problems. Wether they are factual or simply accusations. And people have the nerve to suggest selling knock-offs?

I put my time into this issue, because of my own ethical beleifs. Not because someone is getting ripped off. I have put a lot of thought into this, and I don't really care about the possible monetary damages. They can be saved for civil court.

I care about the possibility of someone paying for a magical product they beleived to be "Authorized" when in fact it may not be authorized at all. I care about the credit and recognition to the creator of the effect.

Creating knock-offs of the company who created knock-offs of yours simply do not make this issue more ethical. If this entire problem was not about ethics, but instead money, I wish neither Martin nor Colin had brought the issue up in a magic discussion forum in the first place.

[Guest]

I am trying to get a response out of the only people who can help me. The Magic mags. etc. But no joy. I am trying to make a point that if no-one dose anything this situation is going to get worse. There are more 'Penguins' than I ever imagined. Talking on here between ourselves is not going to help the problem, only let people know that one exists. Yes, I wish Martin hadn't had to bring it up for discussion, but I think it was worthwhile (in the begining). All it seems to have achieved is to fuel my anger and frustration-And not only with Penguin. Suprising though how a few people are disgusted with my 'ebay project' and yet condone what Penguin are doing.??? Sorry for boring you all this last week, so for my part, end of discussion.

[brownbeauty]

Hi Colin
Keep up the good fight! I for one will boycott "Penguin"

Rudy

[Guest]

Gee, while Colin is correct Jonathon is also correct. A creator should, as a courtesy at minimum, be allowed to produce their creation for a period of time before the vultures start picking at it. Jonathon is correct that many things in magic have improved and moved forward by work done by individuals based on others creations.

I'll avoid the penguin, as I already do. Oh, Colin, you mention NFW and the potention of knock offs, that is a knock off of Jason Alfords Twixter.
Steve V

[Guest]

Originally posted by David Scollnik:

Originally posted by cowboy4ever:
[b] As I am willing to bet that, that is not really Colin Gilbert. Rather a disgruntled penguin customer seeking revenge.

I thought Penguin had no disgruntled customers?

And what's with the funny pseudonym? This is an adult board; we like to use real adult names and have real adult discussions here. People hiding behind a pseudonym must have something to hide :-) [/b]

I use this name on every magic forum

and I still stick with my original opinion on this......this so called "Colin Gilbert" that is making these posts on here is an imposter!

[David Mitchell]

Cowboy:

Your ignorance regarding this subject is profound. How about YOU provide the proof required to clear your 'beloved' Maxwell. Because I think Maxwell is just a disgruntled magician who couldn't create his own material.

Touche.

Colin... I am all for helping you any way I can.

David.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Steve V':
Gee, while Colin is correct Jonathon is also correct. A creator should, as a courtesy at minimum, be allowed to produce their creation for a period of time before the vultures start picking at it. Jonathon is correct that many things in magic have improved and moved forward by work done by individuals based on others creations.
Steve V

I think there is an important different between imitation (knock-off) and improvement (same effect/item but better). When someone creates a safer method for a ring flight, I believe, we can all agree that it is an improvement not a knock off. But what if someone merely improves the price? I say it is a knock-off and only benefits those who do not truly appreciate magic?

Of course, some items will fall into a public domain. But it should not happen while the original creater is still actively marketing the item, without the creators approval, and even then it should hopefully have some improvements.

[Guest]

Actually if you look at Jasons Twixter and then at NFW you'll find that it isn't an improvement at all but a lesser version made more easy.
Steve V

[Guest]

I am also what they called an "inventor" and here is my opinion.

As inventor (when I release an item) I keep my money in my pocket now for the waste of trying to protect my effect.
The money I have not spend on that, I shall use for a vew very good friends also "hackers" named.
If there is an internet magicshop who rip-off my effect, I shall pay that "friends" to "bomb" the internetsite for a month of so,...with this the site is not working!
This would my new defence for that kind of people!
(And I have more of that idea's!)

Ok,..I have spoken. :D

For the other part,...as inventor I think you must realice 2 things.
Do I have an effect for the "whole magic community" or do I have an item only for maximum 20 performers/collectors?
This is very important!!
If you have an item for "the whole magic community", then you have to hold your price low!
Why? If your price is low (for example it cost you $15.00 to make it and you sell it for $25.00) Other people do not try to make it also because they never earn the money in a quick and secure way! Lets face it,...rip-off people are also businessmen! They calculate and calculate,....if it is not worth,...they do not copy!

Or,......Make an item with that special technic, that difficult and so beutifull. (for example, James Riser, Richard Gerlitz, etc.) Then also it take to much costs and time to copy that!
Conclusion,...ripp-off price would be also high!

Or,..last one,....Make for example 20, 50, 100 items wich are numbered including signed certification and warranty!

Personaly I think these are the 3 "golden" rules for inventors!

***I see lots of "inventors" who have red an old book,..change a little with the "modern" technics and voila,....they like the cashflow!***
(Now I do not name names but also here there are a couple of "well known" magicians/inventors who do this "trick" .....and now the fun part,....They are very angry when other people ripp-off "there hard work" ........It's a funny world!

Richard

***sorry for my english,...I hope you understand my writing.****

[Guest]

Originally posted by Steve V':
Actually if you look at Jasons Twixter and then at NFW you'll find that it isn't an improvement at all but a lesser version made more easy.
Steve V

I have never seen The Twixter, unfortunately. But how much easier is the handling in NFW? When a product crosses the line from an imitation to innovation is, naturally, a subjective one. It is a matter of opinions.

Luckly we have this forum where we can discuss about these issues. If I would have read Steve's post a couplke years back I would not have bought NFW. It is a long road but we're walking on it...

P.S.

What about products that are not being made at the moment e.g. Jerry Andrus Linking Safety Pins?

[Guest]

Why don't you ask Jerry at:

andrusj@peak.org

opie

[David Mitchell]

http://www.penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=905

Please tell me that's not Kenton's Bent Cent.

David.

[Guest]

I found out that the item was coming out through Magic Makers,
The above is a quote from Maxwell Murphy at Penguin from an email he sent to Colin Gilbert.

I started all of this discussion by raising a simple issue of how to handle dealers who sell and/or manufacture rip-off magic items. It is clear that Penguin are selling the rip-off and believe that having rip-off items for sale is not unethical in any way. Tannens had the same policy regarding Ken Brooke items (as mentioned by Pete Biro) and the same policy regarding the Ted Lesley Deck which I own. Their argument was that they were buying it from a "guy up north".

Well Maxwell Murphy (surely not his real name) has revealed who makes the effect and that is Magic Makers Inc. I know nothing about them but again I challenge them to respond to this. If you are making Linking Lifesavers or a rip-off thereof for Penguin then please come on this site and justify why you believe you should be entitled to manufacture something without the inventor's permission. Penguin did at least respond to my earlier challenge and now it is your turn.

[Guest]

Penguin Magic is located in Las Vegas, Nevada. We sell magic tricks, DVDs, videos, and performance supplies to magicians of all skill levels throughout the world.
This is our passion. We do things a little differently than other magic stores. We have a vision of the perfect place to learn to be a magician, and we work everyday to bring that vision to life. ...........quote from the Penguin site.

MUST BE ALL VISION AND NO REALITY!

[Guest]

Bent Cent is Ray Koenig's, not Kenton's

[Guest]

Magic Makers. The same people who made the rip-off called The Penetration Wand that Penguin had to pull after pressure was put on them at the Magic Cafe by the inventor of Stir-Fry, the original of which The Penetration Wand is a cheap knock-off.

Here we go again.

Robert V Frazier

[Guest]

O.K. one more attempt at what I am trying to achieve here. It may be of interest to other inventors that have recently been put into a similar predicament.

This is not an advert.

I can tell you everything as I perform this effect surrounded and to other magicans.
You place a deck of cards (in the case) upright on it's long edge.(representing the great wall of china) you then stand one match-stick or half a cocktail stick (representing you know who) up against the deck. GENTLY cover with a silk. -by-play- Remove silk and match-(cocktail) stick is now on the other side. Yes it's (he's) passed right through. No-reset. Undetecable.Everthing examinable. Very simple to perform but very easy and cheap to copy.
This is the only effect I perform that I have not yet passed on. To-anyone. But If someone can come on here and tell me how to 'market' this and guarantee none of the headaches that lifesavers have recently caused me, if you want them, you will be offered exclusive sales rights. (no private e.mails please. The answers are intended to serve all magical inventors)

[Scott Fridinger]

Originally posted by Opie R.:
Bill, I do not like companies which PREY ON KIDS. Most of them will also not hesitate to rip off new routines and effects that enter the market. It is the nature of that type of beast.

It's not just kids they Prey On. Every Dad or Uncle that wants to learn a "something cool to do at Christmas" or for the kids will be an unwitting participant as well.

Scott

[Jonathan Townsend]

* First, thanks for letting us know you have invented a close up version of the walking through a wall trick, using a deck of cards as the wall. Bravo!

Okay, now we know the trick is yours. If you are offering it, good. If you authorize its sale via a vendor, also good for you.

Originally posted by Colin Gilbert:
...and guarantee none of the headaches that lifesavers have recently caused me...

Unfortunately, the headaches are related to your feelings and not directly caused by the behavior of others. Others will do what they do. The only thing you can control is your response.

Some folks like to get originals, and some folks are happy to buy knock-off items based on price. No idea here what to say about those people beyond suggesting that they might not be so happy if they were paid in counterfeit money.

While most in this community are willing to presume authenticity of offerings by dealers, it remains unfair to EXPECT the purchaser to investigate each item offered to ensure the rights of the inventor.

[Guest]

But If someone can come on here and tell me how to 'market' this and guarantee none of the headaches that lifesavers have recently caused me, if you want them, you will be offered exclusive sales rights.

I can only suggest writing it up and publishing it in a book. Then at least you're covered by copyright law, and you can include text saying that your book (or booklet) is the only authorized verision of the trick. You could publish it as an e-book, and price it low enough that there would be no profit in stealing it. It's too bad that such measures are necessary.

Anyway, I'd be interested in buying such an effect, if you ever do find a relatively safe way to release it!

Robert V Frazier

[Randy Naviaux]

Thought I'd get this in before this thread gets locked.

How many of you that are complaining about Penguin have downloaded music from Napster back in the day? (Or other copyrighted items.)Be honest.

Sincerely,

Randy