The Magic Castle Is Broke

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
shaena engle
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby shaena engle » June 29th, 2005, 3:10 pm

I agree with Brian. Many people outside of members want to know what is going on with the Castle and not providing answers where they are accessible to everyone is bad pr for the Castle.

But, to respect the prior request, I have posted my comments on the magic castle forum.

Frank Starsinic
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Frank Starsinic » June 29th, 2005, 3:27 pm

If my facts are straight, members get in free. As do their guests when the member is present.

In comparison,
When a person joins a country club. They do not get to golf free. They just get to go. Still have to pay a greens fee.

Seems like even a small door charge would be a good idea to me.

Sorry if this was already posted above.

Am I off base?

Guest

Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Guest » June 29th, 2005, 3:40 pm

Originally posted by frank starsinic:
If my facts are straight, members get in free. As do their guests when the member is present.

In comparison,
When a person joins a country club. They do not get to golf free. They just get to go. Still have to pay a greens fee.
No that isnt neccesarily true... I just got back from Japan where I played at my father-in-laws country club. He pays a small forutne to be a member and everything we received (including golf) was "free". I have also played numerous times here in the States at a friends country club with the same treatment. Maybe some courses are different than others...

As for the Castle problem, I dont agree. Plenty of people do attend the Castle and do pay the door charge. If the Castle were entitled to more money, I think it should come from the Food and Beverage end... the end that many of those "guests" of the members help contribute to only a nightly basis.

S.Segal

Guest

Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Guest » June 29th, 2005, 4:54 pm

Just curious. Is coffee still available free to regular members?

KirkG
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby KirkG » June 30th, 2005, 1:18 pm

I am not suggesting that you all be kept in the dark, but the idle speculation and invective be kept to our own forum and when real facts or news are presented, they be posted.

Also, for the members, I have been a long supporter of open books and now maybe enough will support that idea in a manner suitable to make some change in that regard.

How you choose what to post is up to you, but only a suggestion. Respect your organization as you see fit.

And we have not had free coffee for members in many years. I don't every remember it, but I only go back to 1975.

Kirk

Kirk

Guest

Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Guest » June 30th, 2005, 1:47 pm

With the $250 assessment for regular local members, plus the original $380 I paid in January, that's a total of $630 for a one-year membership. Sorry -- that's just too much for me and I've been a member for 25 years.

The Castle should have a reduced member fee, say $150, and then that category pays for each visit thereafter along with his/her guests. The reality is I only go 2-3 times a year anymore and I'd rather have a pay-as-you-go membership.

I fear the very people who have supported the Castle at $380 a year and who don't go very often are going to drop their membership (as I am)and this will hurt in the long run. The Board needs to come up with an innovative dues structure.

Also, there are many times I'm out and about in LA and would drop by for drinks, etc. or bring along some friends, but we're not dressed properly for the Castle (but dressed enough for the theater) -- think of all the lost business due to the dress code. It's time to rethink all of this to save the Castle.

Brian Marks
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Brian Marks » July 1st, 2005, 9:58 am

$630 is less than a gym membership.

Robert Allen
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Robert Allen » July 1st, 2005, 10:35 am

I guess that's why I don't have a gym membership.

Plus, at Gyms, you don't have to dress up to go, and you don't have to pay another fee on top of the membership fee for food/beverage.

That aside however, I think the issue here is not just the dollar amount, but the complete un-accountability. As I write this I'm listening to a radio show about the difficulty in paying teachers a living wage in California, and how people say they want better service (better schools) but aren't willing to pay higher taxes. I'd be willing to pay higher taxes if it would improve the schools, but I'm not willing to just throw more money at the problem if I can't see that it's directly applied to resolving the problem. This issue with the Castle is precisely the same: people might well be willing to pay as much as or more than a gym membership fee, however they want to see that the money is given them a good return on their investment.

How would you feel if your gym said "Hey we just discovered we're not making enough money to stay in business, but we can't tell you why, so we're asking all members of the gym to give a one time (for now) additonal yearly fee of a few hundred bucks."?

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Steve Bryant
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Steve Bryant » July 1st, 2005, 1:30 pm

Robert Allen writes:
I guess that's why I don't have a gym membership.

Plus, at Gyms, you don't have to dress up to go, and you don't have to pay another fee on top of the membership fee for food/beverage.
Wow. You clearly DON'T belong to a gym. At gyms you go to the locker room and put on proper gym attire. And what gym do you think offers free food and beverages? Gyms do offer these things, but you pay for them on top of the membership. And if we are talking about a country club (a "golf gym" if you will) there are very specific attire requirements about what you may wear on the golf course, and many clubs assess you an additional monthly food/beverage fee whether you consume the food/beverages or not.

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Steve Bryant
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Steve Bryant » July 1st, 2005, 1:40 pm

Perhaps the solution to all this is that the Magic Castle needs another Bill Larsen. The obvious candidate is Richard Kaufman, who could put out Genii each month AND run the Magic Castle in his spare time. Perhaps, if they would reinstate Bill's prez salary, he'd be tempted.

KirkG
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby KirkG » July 1st, 2005, 3:00 pm

To Robert Allen,

You misquoted the situation. They don't know the specific why(s) but are undergoing a forensic review which will go out to all members and will explain where the money went. It just won't be ready for 3 weeks(personally I think it will be longer than that based on my experience) and we don't have time to wait to take acton.

The rest of your erroneous subjective interpretations have already been pointed out by others.

Kirk

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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Guest » July 1st, 2005, 3:37 pm

I checked, one dresses up for the Castle, down for the Gym. Hope things turn out alright.
Steve V

Robert Allen
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Robert Allen » July 1st, 2005, 4:55 pm

Sorry I wasn't aware that one went to a gym to eat or drink (whether it's included in the monthly fee or not.) When I work out it's to remove the results of what I've eaten and drunk, not to add more to it or even to break even.

[follow up to Kirks comments deleted, no point...]

Brian Marks
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Brian Marks » July 1st, 2005, 6:36 pm

I was just saying. It costs less than other clubs like a gym to belong to in order to save the Castle. The Castle is supposedly important to the art of magic. Obviously it has been run into the ground. I think its time to start a new more modern club.

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Pete Biro
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Pete Biro » July 1st, 2005, 6:59 pm

Today at the Castle no one (manager in particular) seemed to be panicking... he said, "Not to worry, we'll be OK."

I think things will work out.

If heads roll... they have before in many organizations and the outfit keeps rolling along.

Being an optimist, I think we will find that things will be fixed.
Stay tooned.

Brian Marks
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Brian Marks » July 1st, 2005, 8:56 pm

That sounds good.

Pete McCabe
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Pete McCabe » July 2nd, 2005, 12:27 am

Originally posted by Kirk the Magician:
They don't know the specific why(s) but are undergoing a forensic review which will go out to all members and will explain where the money went.
Not to be a stickler, but I doubt very much the review will explain where the money went. It will probably identify where it came from (the food and bar operation), but we'll never know where it went. We'll just find out that the Castle has been running a loss for a long time (i.e. years), and that these losses were covered up by cashflow. This is exactly why food and beverage businesses are such magnets for this sort of thing.

Apparently the Glovers, who have dramatically tightened inventory control -- and raised prices -- are making much more from food and drink than the Castle's previous figures led them to believe. These same figures were previously the basis for the Castle's rent, if I remember correctly. At some point the Glovers got tired of wondering just how much this disappearing money was costing them, and decided to take over the operation. Shortly after this happened, the books were suddenly found to be significantly short.

The bad news is that, in essence, the assessment is going to cover the people who were benefiting from this sorry state of affairs.

The good news is, it won't happen again. Or at least, if it does, it will be the Glovers' problem, and won't threaten the Castle.


Pete

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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Guest » July 2nd, 2005, 9:45 am

It was overheard last night at the Castle that the amount needed in assessments has already been exceeded. This came from a BOD member.

KirkG
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby KirkG » July 2nd, 2005, 9:53 am

Great! This is what we need. A rumor posted by an annomous source about an unnamed board member.

I hope it is true, but if it isn't, it will slow the flow of badly needed funds.

Kirk Grodske

Sam Kesler
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Sam Kesler » July 2nd, 2005, 11:12 am

I'm having a little trouble dealing with this request for more money. I was just accepted as a new member in February and wrote them a check for $568. It'd be nice if recent new members were exempt, but hey, nobody said life is fair.

Marcus
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Marcus » July 2nd, 2005, 3:30 pm

How much are the regular membership dues per year?
The previous post mentions $568 and others show $380...just curious.

KirkG
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby KirkG » July 3rd, 2005, 12:28 am

I am guessing the difference is an Associate Membership verses a Regular(Magician) Membership.

Kirk

Sam Kesler
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Sam Kesler » July 3rd, 2005, 9:50 am

I don't have the price schedule in front of me (looks like the fees were removed from the Magic Castle website; you have to request an application), but the first year for magicians membership is something like $580 (then pro-rated monthly depending on what month you join) and then $380 afterwards. Associate memberships are even higher.

Bill Duncan
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Bill Duncan » July 3rd, 2005, 10:38 am

A possible answer to the Castle's financial problems: Bill and Barbara Malone

Richard Hatch
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Richard Hatch » July 3rd, 2005, 11:43 am

Originally posted by Bill Duncan:
A possible answer to the Castle's financial problems: Bill and Barbara Malone
I'd join that club!

Guest

Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Guest » July 3rd, 2005, 5:00 pm

Originally posted by Occams Razor:
It was overheard last night at the Castle that the amount needed in assessments has already been exceeded. This came from a BOD member.
Woo Hoo! Can I play the anonymous poster game too?

First, lets apply Occam's Razor to the problem. Using the "The simplest explanation is the best" rule to this situation means that Pete McCabe's explanation sounds the best; and that member dues were being used in years past to "make up" for the previous year's operational shortfalls.

So, in a single stroke the rumors, perpetrated by anonymous posters, of dues increases and dramatic action; be it broke or suddenly they have enough money, seem to fall by the wayside.

Using the Nickname "Occam's Razor" to stoke the fires of the rumor mill - Priceless.

People will send in the assessment, and the accountants will turn up a simple, non-conspiracy explanation that anonymous people will try and spin into fantastic tales of people carrying buckets of money out the front of the castle while laughing manically. I can see it now:

Originally posted by Occams Razor:
My Super-Secret source who is related to someone that once dated a Board member says that he saw the club manager carry out two cash-registers, power cords dangling, full of the night's receipts!
In reality, other clubs, including the Castle have had assessments and most of the time they are to make up for funding shortfalls. The people that made the mistakes in projecting the cash flow quietly don't run the next election. Or if a staff member is to blame they are quietly allowed to retire or are loudly fired. Real businesses take out a loan to make up for the shortfall and then figure out why they had a problem in the first place.

Following Pete's (and the real Occam's Razor) logic, the simplest explaination is that the castle has been losing money for years, and the assessment will be used to pay for past losses. Personally, I am wagering that is the explanation I will get.

To go further, that is, to try and find out WHY past losses occurred and who incurred them would bring on a witch hunt that would, at best, be tragic.

I've paid my assessment. And, in reality, $2000 is roughly $12.50 per hour. Could you live in LA on that? Whether Dale Hindman is there to prevent this from turning into a game of "who's to blame" or there to protect his own assets, I won't mind paying if (and only if - Occam, that's another phrase used in physics you can misuse at your leisure) the results of the audit/review/whatever are made available to, or better yet mailed to the general membership and Mr. Hindman's role is explained to me.

In short, much like my namesake, we must wait until we have opened the steel cylinder, before we interpret the results of the experiment.

Meow.

Robert Allen
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Robert Allen » July 3rd, 2005, 7:10 pm

"says that he saw the club manager carry out two cash-registers, power cords dangling, full of the night's receipts!"

Aha! I KNEW it!!!

;)

Guest

Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Guest » July 3rd, 2005, 7:21 pm

And I will cackle like a giddy school girl when Schrodinger wakes up one day to discover that I have run over his cat with my Humvee.

Bill Mullins
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Bill Mullins » July 3rd, 2005, 11:22 pm

Originally posted by Occams Razor:
And I will cackle like a giddy school girl when Schrodinger wakes up one day to discover that I have run over his cat with my Humvee.
My friend Werner Heisen-something-or-other says that you can know if you were going fast enough to kill the cat, or you can know if you were in the right position to kill the cat, but not both. So the cat still has at least eight lives left.

Guest

Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Guest » July 4th, 2005, 1:41 pm

My only problem with thsi - and I as many, knew an assessment was coming but...

The letter they sent asking for the assessment was horrid - It stated they were short on cash but litterally HAD NO IDEA WHY. The letter states they do not have the books done totaly for last year yet.

WHAAA???

I am a business owner and I know were all my money goes - I can even tract theft when it happens.

Sorry to say - but when I pay my $250 - I am also going to expect the accountant/bookkeeper to be fired.

Guest

Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Guest » July 5th, 2005, 5:23 pm

Originally posted by Bill Mullins:
Originally posted by Occams Razor:
[b] And I will cackle like a giddy school girl when Schrodinger wakes up one day to discover that I have run over his cat with my Humvee.
My friend Werner Heisen-something-or-other says that you can know if you were going fast enough to kill the cat, or you can know if you were in the right position to kill the cat, but not both. So the cat still has at least eight lives left. [/b]
Oh come on Bill, you should know better than to try and reason with our anonymous poster-pal.

I mean, just look at his response to me: raither than a debate on the subject at hand, and the relative validity of my statements vs. his, he's has chosen to ignore all that and go right for the threat.

Why is that?

Well, applying (once again) Occam's Razor, we find a simple solution to why he would threaten, rather than debate: He's beat on an intellectual level, so now has's gotta puff up his fur and hiss.

No Bill, Occam has an axe to grind. I wonder if he is an exemployee or just a little "needy", given his desire to become a source of information, and draw attention to himself, rather than a force of change, and give credit to other.

Meow

Randy
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Randy » July 11th, 2005, 1:42 pm

Heard rumors that the Magic Castle has received enough additional funds and considers itself "stable again" already???? Anybody have any info where we are on this?

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Pete Biro
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Pete Biro » July 11th, 2005, 2:52 pm

Go to www.magiccastle.com and read the forums there... :D
Stay tooned.

George Olson
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby George Olson » July 19th, 2005, 4:19 pm

Some of us arenot members so we can't get access to the Board there. After all the Hulabaloo it sure died out in a hurry.

What's the scoop?

Inquiring minds need to know...

GO

Guest

Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Guest » July 24th, 2005, 1:29 pm

Hindman appointed at the rate of $2,000.00 per Month to investigate the Cash shortfall?
How in the name of common sense can you appoint someone who 'MAY' have caused the cash shortfall to help investigate its cause? Would it have been proper to ask the Enron executives to help conduct an investigation of their companies financial fiasco?

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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Chris Aguilar » July 24th, 2005, 2:42 pm

Bruce,

I've been dithering for a long time over joining the AMA and your question seems a fair one. I have doubt that we'll ever get a straight answer though.

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Dustin Stinett
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Dustin Stinett » July 24th, 2005, 3:27 pm

I will now openly admit that I had a very serious issue with this when I first heard about it. My knee-jerk reaction was that the fox was reviewing the henhouse. Then I had an opportunity to speak at length with Dale in Reno. He was open and earnest in his answers; and he answered all my questions including whether or not he had a new Maserati. Not unless they look like an old Camry! And no, no one on either board has had their home painted, or any other number of absurd rumors that spread as a result of this mess.

Without getting too deep into the technicalities, what he described to me sounded exactly like the kinds of things I see all of the time in the business I am in. After the books are closed on one transaction, something comes in late from one of our clients customers (usually as a result of a review of their books) that our client must pay. In my business, its not at all uncommon for post-audits to find things due that are over a year old! It doesnt matter; it must be paid (after, of course, we review our books to make sure it is correct). This kind of stuff happens all of the time in a lot of businesses and it is rarely an Enron situation where the parties involved did anything nefarious.

So why is Dale working with the reviewers and being paid to do it? Because the other members of the BOD asked him to; it was their idea. It is expected that his presence will help speed up a very slow process. He believes he knows where the problems are and can have the reviewers focus in those areas. For anyone who has the idea that he will be covering up anything with his presence also must believe that the reviewers will be willing to risk breaking the law by becoming part of a conspiracy. I have trouble believing that someone would risk possible jail time, fines and the loss of their business by agreeing to cover the asses of a bunch of folks that run a magic club. (It might be easier to believe if we were speaking about hundreds of millions of dollars, like we were with Enron.)

Dale is fully aware of his responsibility in this mess, but its a responsibility that comes with his position and nothing else. I believe him when he says that he wants to get to the bottom of it as much as anyone else. But with that being said, Dales time is not free, nor should we expect it to be.

Dustin

Chris Aguilar
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Chris Aguilar » July 24th, 2005, 3:38 pm

The information that came out in the Giorgio depositions (which is publicly available if you know where/how to look for it) combined with a lot of private commentary from long time castle members has made me very leery of the actions of the BOD in general, especially when it comes down to promises of "We'll get to the bottom of this", etc.

I've enjoyed every visit I've ever had to the castle and admit that it's always been a goal of mine to join. I just love the place.

But as a prospective dues paying member, I don't know if I'd feel comfortable joining with these sort of reservations. And very little that I hear from sources I'd trust (and thanks for sharing that bit of information Dustin) really makes me feel confident in the ability of AMA to avoid these sort of situations in the future.

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Dustin Stinett
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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby Dustin Stinett » July 24th, 2005, 7:10 pm

There is one thing I need to correct: Based on a reading of the minutes, the idea of a consultant came from the company doing the review. Lew Horwitz recommended Dale Hindman and the Board approved it. Some might think this is evidence of a lie on Dales part since I said he told me it was the Boards idea. Frankly, its possible Dale simply said that he was hired by the Board: He was.

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Re: The Magic Castle Is Broke

Postby George Olson » July 24th, 2005, 8:24 pm

Thanks, Dustin!

:cool:

GO


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