Ah yesthis thread is definitely interesting
I have been busy and havent had time to check back in since I posted on the first page Man, was that a mistake! I had to spend about an hour catching up.
Having married into magic (I wish that was like marrying into money, but its not), I found it very interesting to learn how the whole crediting thing worked. Earlier in this thread, someone likened it to commercial products i.e. Oreo = Hydrox. Actually I saw a parallel more to the kind of referencing I saw in scientific journals from my time spent working at OSU in the Chemistry Dept. Every bit of magic builds on what came before. Every effect has a pedigree (kinda like dogs..and in some cases..well..lets be civil..). Magicians are expected by the magic community to credit the researchers who ideas they are using.
There is no law that states this crediting must be done. It is an ethical part of the magic community however. Anyone who does not follow those expectations is called out to answer for his/her actions, and the only thing at stake is his/her reputation. In such a tight knit community, loss of respect and credibility can be staggering. Having a good reputation can mean gainful employment through references, sales of products and, I think more importantly, being invited into the mutual exchange of ideas.
As far as a registry of trick predigrees, as Mr. Mitchell suggested, I want to see the blood bath that would bring about. He obviously hasnt been privy to some of the mud slinging sessions that I have. Certain effects have confused or dubious pedigrees and would start more heated discussions like this one. Some magicians are not as upstanding as the community would like, hence the problems we are witnessing here.
As far as whether young people can learn to be truly entertaining from Ellusionist, I propose a test. I will gather a group of magic wives. You know the kind I am talking about, guys...Women like the one who recently married a magi friend of ours who told a well known magician that his magic was poodle [censored] (her phrase, not mine). Unless you guys learned something exceptional, I think even our panel of experts would be hard pressed to pass THAT test.
As we are going to be at Magi-fest in about a week, we invite the Ellusionist group to come and be entertainingwell be in the bar with our hard-core group of magic spectators waiting to be awed...
Ellusionist
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Guest
Re: Ellusionist
Rosie,
Im not sure if you have read all of the posts but Mr. Field and several others are saying that even if Brad Christian got all the credit right the first time they would still hate his product. They have said that its still stealing because Brad didnt ask permission from the inventers of the various tricks and sleights. What if he had and they said no? Brad has no legal obligation to ask. I can understand that people got mad about the credit but that fact of the matter is he was man enough to admit his mistake, then he corrected his mistake. Thats not enough according to the cheif genii. Brad must go out of his way and ask permission and even buy permission even though he is not obligated to do so. Also some of the people dont like the way its marketed and others dont like the mtv style of it. Thats fine ok you dont like the product dont buy it but they are saying that this product is bad for magic and just plain wrong. Thats what the issue has come down to and thats what i disagree with.
Ray
Im not sure if you have read all of the posts but Mr. Field and several others are saying that even if Brad Christian got all the credit right the first time they would still hate his product. They have said that its still stealing because Brad didnt ask permission from the inventers of the various tricks and sleights. What if he had and they said no? Brad has no legal obligation to ask. I can understand that people got mad about the credit but that fact of the matter is he was man enough to admit his mistake, then he corrected his mistake. Thats not enough according to the cheif genii. Brad must go out of his way and ask permission and even buy permission even though he is not obligated to do so. Also some of the people dont like the way its marketed and others dont like the mtv style of it. Thats fine ok you dont like the product dont buy it but they are saying that this product is bad for magic and just plain wrong. Thats what the issue has come down to and thats what i disagree with.
Ray
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Frank Starsinic
- Posts: 331
- Joined: January 23rd, 2008, 12:00 pm
- Location: Davis,CA
- Contact:
Re: Ellusionist
I think Brad's "acting" is pretty good on the clips. He does not sound like a used car salesman which is more than I can say for many other magic clips I've seen. He does seem like himself which I always think is a plus.
I think the idea that it is marketed as revolutionary and "learn in hours" is bogus and is potentially harmful to magic but what can you do. It's marketing and marketing lies.
I have a hard time putting my finger on it but...
The clips are not done as a performance.
Instead they are done as if some secret will be revealed (that does not exist) to allow these effects to be done, almost automatically, without any practice.
Does this make sense or ring true with anyone else? This is the part that, to me, is not truthful.
Obviously not providing credit stinks, and though there is some effort to undo that misdeed, it's not enough in my estimation.
I think the idea that it is marketed as revolutionary and "learn in hours" is bogus and is potentially harmful to magic but what can you do. It's marketing and marketing lies.
I have a hard time putting my finger on it but...
The clips are not done as a performance.
Instead they are done as if some secret will be revealed (that does not exist) to allow these effects to be done, almost automatically, without any practice.
Does this make sense or ring true with anyone else? This is the part that, to me, is not truthful.
Obviously not providing credit stinks, and though there is some effort to undo that misdeed, it's not enough in my estimation.
Re: Ellusionist
Once again, Raymond, check the article by Peter Duffie.Originally posted by Raymond Pinner:
They have said that its still stealing because Brad didnt ask permission from the inventers of the various tricks and sleights. What if he had and they said no?
And? The legal system has not been around since the beginning of time. Once there was no laws against bad things that are illegal today - but according to your reasoning, those things could not be considered bad back then, as they weren't illegal. So, I guess that it is a mystery that those things eventually got forbidden, right?Brad has no legal obligation to ask.
That something isn't illegal is not the same thing as being commendable. Taking someone else's hard work without permission is always a bad thing. Only a crook would rely on the tiny omissions in the lawbooks and claim otherwise.
Once again, check the Peter Duffie article.I can understand that people got mad about the credit but that fact of the matter is he was man enough to admit his mistake, then he corrected his mistake.
Besides - he did a lousy job when he "corrected his mistake", as his list of credits (here) contains other "mistakes". By the look of it, it seems like this list of credits was thrown together in an afternoon or less. Though it might look, at a cursory glance, like he has admitted and attempted to correct a mistake - that attempt look less than sincere to me.
Just look at the credits for the "Two Card Monte". It is credited to Theodore DeLand in his list. Which is perfectly correct, if it wasn't for the little detail that a completely different effect, created by someone else, is shown on the "Two Card Monte" video. That does not give a honest and sincere impression.
Granted, sometimes, when it comes to variant handlings and obscure moves, mistakes easily happens. But the DeLand effect, and the Fechter effect, are both very well known. Confusing them for each other is very unlikely, unless you are illiterate or just simply ignorant. Neither should be a significant trait for a teacher.
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Guest
Re: Ellusionist
Granted. But there's also the possibility that he made an honest mistake. A lawyer friend of mine (!) once noted that when you point the finger of blame at someone...you're also pointing three fingers of blame right back at yourself. (Try it and see.) I'd suggest that we try and find common ground and ways to work together. To do any less is, IMHO, selfish, self-centered, short-sighted, and silly...and most of all, self-defeating.Originally posted by Tom Stone:
Tom: I think Raymond's referring to Andy Leviss' comments earlier on this thread.Originally posted by Raymond Pinner:
[b]They have said that its still stealing because Brad didnt ask permission from the inventers of the various tricks and sleights. What if he had and they said no?
Once again, Raymond, check the article by Peter Duffie.
Uh...wow! I guess that the lawyers in our midst are probably having a thought or two about this. Sometimes, omissions in the law are there for a reason. The entire Constitution of the United States is filled with deliberate omissions, upon which an entire body of constitutional law has been built. Taking someone else's hard work and passing it off as your own is clearly morally, and in many cases, legally wrong. But you start to get into a moral and legal gray area if you take someone else work and improve upon it, elevating it to a different level. And that begs the question: what is improvement? One man's improvement is another's sacrilege.Brad has no legal obligation to ask.
And? The legal system has not been around since the beginning of time. Once there was no laws against bad things that are illegal today - but according to your reasoning, those things could not be considered bad back then, as they weren't illegal. So, I guess that it is a mystery that those things eventually got forbidden, right?
That something isn't illegal is not the same thing as being commendable. Taking someone else's hard work without permission is always a bad thing. Only a crook would rely on the tiny omissions in the lawbooks and claim otherwise.
Once again, check the Peter Duffie article.I can understand that people got mad about the credit but that fact of the matter is he was man enough to admit his mistake, then he corrected his mistake.
Besides - he did a lousy job when he "corrected his mistake", as his list of credits (here) contains other "mistakes". Just look at the credits for the "Two Card Monte". It is credited to Theodore DeLand in his list. Which is perfectly correct, if it wasn't for the little detail that a completely different effect, created by someone else, is shown on the "Two Card Monte" video. That does not give a honest and sincere impression.
Granted, sometimes, when it comes to variant handlings and obscure moves, mistakes easily happens. But the DeLand effect, and the Fechter effect, are both very well known. Confusing them for each other is very unlikely, unless you are illiterate or just simply ignorant. Neither should be a significant trait for a teacher.[/b]
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David Mitchell
- Posts: 172
- Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
- Location: St Catharines
- Contact:
Re: Ellusionist
Ack... having been recently married, and also having aliens substitue my magic loving wife for someone who is suddenly skeptical ALL the time when it comes to magic, I think that's one test I would rather pass up. You think magicians can be tough... they wives are ten times worse.Originally posted by Rosie:
As far as whether young people can learn to be truly entertaining from Ellusionist, I propose a test. I will gather a group of magic wives. You know the kind I am talking about, guys...Women like the one who recently married a magi friend of ours who told Ron Bauer his magic was poodle [censored] (her phrase, not mine). Unless you guys learned something exceptional, I think even our panel of experts would be hard pressed to pass THAT test.
I recall recently working my butt off to learn something, and having astounded numerous laypeople, and a few magicians as well, only to have my dear wife burst my bubble and say, "is that it?", in such a sincere tone, that I felt like I had just shown her a trick with 21 cards.
Smart people will stay away from that challenge... (but if it happens, get it on tape for me).
David
David Mitchell
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Guest
Re: Ellusionist
Ray...may I call you Ray? You really seemed to have made this your home of late so i'll use the familar form of your name...Originally posted by Raymond Pinner:
Rosie,
They have said that its still stealing because Brad didnt ask permission from the inventers of the various tricks and sleights. What if he had and they said no? Brad has no legal obligation to ask.
Ray
I think you totally missed the point of my post. I am pointing out that the established magic community has levels of expectations. Once you raise your head above certain levels and attract attention, you are expected to behave in certain ways. It is not the law. It is not even a city ordinance. But it is expected none the less.
If Richard Kaufmann were to publish without permission or even miscredit, the magic community would let him know, and they might start to question everything he does.
The more you are noticed, the more attention you draw, the more you need to make sure your ducks are in a row...
The other thing that really bothers some people in established magic is the "cultlike" attitude you guys at Ellusionist seem to have. Also it is kind of creepy that Brad gets criticized and all these one time posters run up to his defense. It is very odd to say the least. The people who follow him seem to have a strange idea of what magic is all about. Its almost like Brad is turning this into a cult of personality rather than a product to teach a craft. Or it might not be Brad, but those who follow the Ellusionist path. In either case...still damned weird...don't drink the Kool-aid kids!
You are probably a nice guy Ray, but you seem totally unwilling to see anyone else's viewpoint. That disturbs me greatly. Once you outgrow Ellusionist, there are people who will be able to teach you, but you have to be able to accept what they have to teach as being valid.
Try going to some magic conventions. Not the big ones, like IBM, SAM or WMS. Go to some of the smaller conventions. I see older experienced magicians sitting up until the wee hours of the morning with the young hot guns in magic...and guess what??! they are learning from each other!!! GASP! I'll take human interaction over videos anyday.
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Joe M. Turner
- Posts: 422
- Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
- Favorite Magician: Fred Kaps
- Location: Atlanta, GA
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Re: Ellusionist
I didn't think "Crash Course 1" was bad for magic because of the specific tricks it teaches, or the rapid paced editing, or the style. Those are superficial elements.
I think it's bad for the art of magic because
- The crediting issues have NOT been resolved, the wrongdoing was not actually admitted, and there is far more to being "good for magic" than just "being legal"
- There is a strong sense on the video that sloppy scholarship and lack of respect for those who preceded us is fine as long as you learn a move (Braue, whatever...).
- The whole thing is built to cater to the least admirable reasons we can have for doing magic... you can look like a "cool dude," you can be a copycat of what you saw on television, etc.
- The entire thing was a clone of an existing performer's image and reeks of coattail surfing. This is presented not as something to be eventually overcome, but as something to be pursued and embraced.
In fact, the whole business appears to be based on sending out as many kids as possible into the streets of America pretending to be David Blaine on television. This is based, now as when I wrote my original review, on my visits to the web site and my reading of the forum there. Even if these guys do get the tricks right... there is an opportunity to inspire beginners toward a more fruitful approach to magic than blatant copycatting and it has been squandered in pursuit of the almighty $$$. (And RK has given us good insights about the difference between art and commerce... twice!) Being a copycat is glorified, encouraged and, unfortunately, legitimized in the eyes of many impressionable beginners by watching these videos. That is bad for magic, and it's not a function of the editing. It's a function of the concept itself.
Copycatting from videos happens a lot. There are plenty of people out there walking around doing tricks verbatim like Michael Ammar or Daryl. The difference here is that the whole thing is based on the idea that copying another performer is a GOOD thing... that you SHOULD do that... that it's HEALTHY to not only copy, but to base your magic business on COPYING another performer's television show as closely as possible.
This has been explained so many times by different people (starting with me in the pages of Genii) that we're now on the 4th page of a debate that is being perpetuated by people who apparently haven't heard a single word of the explanations. Apparently they will NEVER be willing to admit that there is anything the least bit true in what has been pointed out time and time again here. There are none so blind as those who will not see...
Brad is obviously a successful businessman. I said as much in my review. He may be a skilled magician, a good neighbor, and just the "coolest dude" you would ever want to meet. He may love his mom and dad and help old ladies across the street. That's great. It is irrelevant to what I was trying to address in my review and what is being addressed here. I wrote about what I thought -- and still think -- is wrong with Crash Course 1 and the ellusionist brand in general. He disagrees, which is unsurprising considering that it is his baby. Who doesn't want to hear their child praised? I can understand that. Doesn't change my opinion.
And as always, what I write is just one guy's opinion. Take it or leave it. I can still sleep at night knowing that my column is in the bottom of Brad Christian's birdcage.
Best,
JMT
I think it's bad for the art of magic because
- The crediting issues have NOT been resolved, the wrongdoing was not actually admitted, and there is far more to being "good for magic" than just "being legal"
- There is a strong sense on the video that sloppy scholarship and lack of respect for those who preceded us is fine as long as you learn a move (Braue, whatever...).
- The whole thing is built to cater to the least admirable reasons we can have for doing magic... you can look like a "cool dude," you can be a copycat of what you saw on television, etc.
- The entire thing was a clone of an existing performer's image and reeks of coattail surfing. This is presented not as something to be eventually overcome, but as something to be pursued and embraced.
In fact, the whole business appears to be based on sending out as many kids as possible into the streets of America pretending to be David Blaine on television. This is based, now as when I wrote my original review, on my visits to the web site and my reading of the forum there. Even if these guys do get the tricks right... there is an opportunity to inspire beginners toward a more fruitful approach to magic than blatant copycatting and it has been squandered in pursuit of the almighty $$$. (And RK has given us good insights about the difference between art and commerce... twice!) Being a copycat is glorified, encouraged and, unfortunately, legitimized in the eyes of many impressionable beginners by watching these videos. That is bad for magic, and it's not a function of the editing. It's a function of the concept itself.
Copycatting from videos happens a lot. There are plenty of people out there walking around doing tricks verbatim like Michael Ammar or Daryl. The difference here is that the whole thing is based on the idea that copying another performer is a GOOD thing... that you SHOULD do that... that it's HEALTHY to not only copy, but to base your magic business on COPYING another performer's television show as closely as possible.
This has been explained so many times by different people (starting with me in the pages of Genii) that we're now on the 4th page of a debate that is being perpetuated by people who apparently haven't heard a single word of the explanations. Apparently they will NEVER be willing to admit that there is anything the least bit true in what has been pointed out time and time again here. There are none so blind as those who will not see...
Brad is obviously a successful businessman. I said as much in my review. He may be a skilled magician, a good neighbor, and just the "coolest dude" you would ever want to meet. He may love his mom and dad and help old ladies across the street. That's great. It is irrelevant to what I was trying to address in my review and what is being addressed here. I wrote about what I thought -- and still think -- is wrong with Crash Course 1 and the ellusionist brand in general. He disagrees, which is unsurprising considering that it is his baby. Who doesn't want to hear their child praised? I can understand that. Doesn't change my opinion.
And as always, what I write is just one guy's opinion. Take it or leave it. I can still sleep at night knowing that my column is in the bottom of Brad Christian's birdcage.
Best,
JMT
Re: Ellusionist
I'm not living in USA, so that information has no meaning for me.Originally posted by Steve Friedberg:
The entire Constitution of the United States is filled with deliberate omissions, upon which an entire body of constitutional law has been built.
A discussion about the differences in your local legal system doesn't interest me much. Especially since there is an established praxis within our field for how the creations of others should be handled, that is considered the norm on an international level.
And regarding pointing fingers of blame; No one would be happier than me, if you can find anything wrong, in this department, in my published work.
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Guest
Re: Ellusionist
Tom,
This is two posts since you said you weren't going to post anymore in this thread...if we can't trust a Swede to keep his word...what is this world coming to?! I am going to burn my Abba collection!
PS. If you would like to send along that set of lecture notes you promised so long ago..I will happily check them for any flaw in referencing...thus preventing any future conflicts between the US and Sweden..
Love
Rosie
This is two posts since you said you weren't going to post anymore in this thread...if we can't trust a Swede to keep his word...what is this world coming to?! I am going to burn my Abba collection!
PS. If you would like to send along that set of lecture notes you promised so long ago..I will happily check them for any flaw in referencing...thus preventing any future conflicts between the US and Sweden..
Love
Rosie
Re: Ellusionist
I'm surprised, Rosie! Your reading skills are usually much better than this. You'll notice that your Abba collection is perfectly safe, if you go back to see what I really wrote.Originally posted by Rosie:
This is two posts since you said you weren't going to post anymore in this thread...if we can't trust a Swede to keep his word...what is this world coming to?! I am going to burn my Abba collection!
Ooops. Will do so, as soon as I'm back home again.PS. If you would like to send along that set of lecture notes you promised so long ago..I will happily check them for any flaw in referencing.
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Guest
Re: Ellusionist
1)
Please don't make assumptions or generalize generalize about ellusionist forum members/owners. Joe, how long did you spend in the forum? I would estimate that half of the regular posters in the e.com forum have NO desire to be Blaine copycats whatsoever. We may have different levels of ability, experience and interests, but I assure the vast majority of e.com regular forum contributors are interested in developing THEIR OWN voice in magic, not in imitating someone else's (especially Blaine LOL).
We bought a product that promised some form of instruction in magic, which may or may not have delivered depending on who you ask. We use the forum because it allows us to interact with others with similar interests, and by helping others we a re really helping ourselves, since posting forces us to distill our own thoughts on the matter at hand. Some of us are quite passionate about magic, and have enough character to not be in danger of having our minds warped by MTV style editing and pictures of attractive(?) women.
As I pointed out earlier, even if I were a pacifist, I would still be able to form an opinion about which assault rifle is better in a firefight. In my opinion an item should be judged as to how it fulfilles it intended purpose, not by how it fits into the moral scheme of the person evaluating it....
on the subject of "morality"
2)
Please understand one thing, now and forever. Whenever someone says the word "wrong" he is stating an OPINION. The word "wrong" is synonymous with "I don't like this." The problem is that because of some reasons which I will happily NOT go into, people think that the words "right" and "wrong," are absolutes, i.e. instead of recognizing that when they use the word "wrong" they are stating their personal opinions, they think that they are stating metaphysical truths or facts...
that "wrongness" is somehow a quality that exists in the world like mass or volume, or that there is an as yet undiscovered "law" of nature that tells us what is "wrong" and "right."
Most people think this way, and an example cited earlier in this thread (about the 16th century) is evidence of this kind of thinking.
In an open society the way that conflicts between values systems i.e. different ideas of what is wrong or right, are resolved is very simple. There is a list that is created of ACTIONS that are punishable. That is all. This list is designed to ensure a well-functioning society. If an action is not on this list, you are free to take it without censure. If it is, and you take it, you are subject to punishment. Nothing about right, wrong or anything else. This kind of system maximizes the freedom of those that live under it.
(An aside...when "moral" thinking begins to be injected into the legal system, in an abslutist way, that is the first step to reducing the freedoms of those living in the system).
So, please treat your comments about "right" and "wrong" as your own opinions and not as some scientific law that exists independent of anything else.
3)
It is IMO rather untenable to demand that whenever someone teaches the creation of someone else that in addition to crediting him, he needs to get his permission.
Someone brought up the analogy earlier to the scientific community. In the scientific community as soon as a paper has appeared in print anyone is free to reference it in whatever way he or she sees fit.
In magic, the situation is complicated by the fact that in addition to just publishing, (perhaps in Genii) some creators choose to sell their creations (as is of course their right), and if one were free to to reference the creation in any way one saw fit, the release of a product would be followed by waves of copies. (actually, this is exactly what does happen, and has happened to brad as well). In order to stop this, a set of negative consequences must be created for this action, rather than chest beating and name calling.
Please don't make assumptions or generalize generalize about ellusionist forum members/owners. Joe, how long did you spend in the forum? I would estimate that half of the regular posters in the e.com forum have NO desire to be Blaine copycats whatsoever. We may have different levels of ability, experience and interests, but I assure the vast majority of e.com regular forum contributors are interested in developing THEIR OWN voice in magic, not in imitating someone else's (especially Blaine LOL).
We bought a product that promised some form of instruction in magic, which may or may not have delivered depending on who you ask. We use the forum because it allows us to interact with others with similar interests, and by helping others we a re really helping ourselves, since posting forces us to distill our own thoughts on the matter at hand. Some of us are quite passionate about magic, and have enough character to not be in danger of having our minds warped by MTV style editing and pictures of attractive(?) women.
As I pointed out earlier, even if I were a pacifist, I would still be able to form an opinion about which assault rifle is better in a firefight. In my opinion an item should be judged as to how it fulfilles it intended purpose, not by how it fits into the moral scheme of the person evaluating it....
on the subject of "morality"
2)
Please understand one thing, now and forever. Whenever someone says the word "wrong" he is stating an OPINION. The word "wrong" is synonymous with "I don't like this." The problem is that because of some reasons which I will happily NOT go into, people think that the words "right" and "wrong," are absolutes, i.e. instead of recognizing that when they use the word "wrong" they are stating their personal opinions, they think that they are stating metaphysical truths or facts...
that "wrongness" is somehow a quality that exists in the world like mass or volume, or that there is an as yet undiscovered "law" of nature that tells us what is "wrong" and "right."
Most people think this way, and an example cited earlier in this thread (about the 16th century) is evidence of this kind of thinking.
In an open society the way that conflicts between values systems i.e. different ideas of what is wrong or right, are resolved is very simple. There is a list that is created of ACTIONS that are punishable. That is all. This list is designed to ensure a well-functioning society. If an action is not on this list, you are free to take it without censure. If it is, and you take it, you are subject to punishment. Nothing about right, wrong or anything else. This kind of system maximizes the freedom of those that live under it.
(An aside...when "moral" thinking begins to be injected into the legal system, in an abslutist way, that is the first step to reducing the freedoms of those living in the system).
So, please treat your comments about "right" and "wrong" as your own opinions and not as some scientific law that exists independent of anything else.
3)
It is IMO rather untenable to demand that whenever someone teaches the creation of someone else that in addition to crediting him, he needs to get his permission.
Someone brought up the analogy earlier to the scientific community. In the scientific community as soon as a paper has appeared in print anyone is free to reference it in whatever way he or she sees fit.
In magic, the situation is complicated by the fact that in addition to just publishing, (perhaps in Genii) some creators choose to sell their creations (as is of course their right), and if one were free to to reference the creation in any way one saw fit, the release of a product would be followed by waves of copies. (actually, this is exactly what does happen, and has happened to brad as well). In order to stop this, a set of negative consequences must be created for this action, rather than chest beating and name calling.
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Joe M. Turner
- Posts: 422
- Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
- Favorite Magician: Fred Kaps
- Location: Atlanta, GA
- Contact:
Re: Ellusionist
Maybe putting up with chest beating and name calling are part of the negative consequences? ;) Of course, others call the same behavior "righteous indignation" and "ethical outrage" and "calling a spade a spade." You be the judge.
I will not engage you in a debate here on whether and why I believe there are, in fact, moral absolutes, or how they do or don't relate to magic. It is completely irrelevent to the point at hand, which was originally about why I think the video I saw was good or bad for magic. Those points have been raised and defended many times, and I believe they still stand. I can live with the fact that you and others disagree with me. (Your mistake! :D )
Any time we express an evaluation of an idea, action, product, etc., we know that there will be those who disagree. Fair enough. I'm a big boy and am not going to go cry to the ellusionist forum that folks are criticizing my review.
JMT
...wonders if you bought that hypothetical assault rifle legally or out of the back of some guy's van...
I will not engage you in a debate here on whether and why I believe there are, in fact, moral absolutes, or how they do or don't relate to magic. It is completely irrelevent to the point at hand, which was originally about why I think the video I saw was good or bad for magic. Those points have been raised and defended many times, and I believe they still stand. I can live with the fact that you and others disagree with me. (Your mistake! :D )
Any time we express an evaluation of an idea, action, product, etc., we know that there will be those who disagree. Fair enough. I'm a big boy and am not going to go cry to the ellusionist forum that folks are criticizing my review.
JMT
...wonders if you bought that hypothetical assault rifle legally or out of the back of some guy's van...
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Guest
Re: Ellusionist
LOL Joe.
I actually have a collection of dud hand grenades to go along with my hypothetical assault rifles LOL.
despite my unpleasant introduction I have actually enjoyed reading this forum very much. If I think I can contribute something I will chime in (in other threads LOL). I don't plan on stayiong a "one time poster."
I actually have a collection of dud hand grenades to go along with my hypothetical assault rifles LOL.
despite my unpleasant introduction I have actually enjoyed reading this forum very much. If I think I can contribute something I will chime in (in other threads LOL). I don't plan on stayiong a "one time poster."
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John LeBlanc
- Posts: 903
- Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
Re: Ellusionist
Before I start, I want it known that I am not the John W. LeBlanc who, just last night, said that he would no longer post to this thread.
No, that John W. LeBlanc is...sleeping. Yes, that's it. He's sleeping. And while the "good" John sleeps, the "bad" John is going to respond to this tripe:
The ignorance that blinds youth to the fact that there is a whole world that exists outside of the five-foot bubble that surrounds them, around which the sun, moon, and stars obviously revolve.
What you are failing to take into consideration, "Ralph", is that "magic" is a community.
Part of that community may be found here. Dare I say, the better, more involved, more influential, more vocal, more respectful part of magic is right here, in the Genii Forum.
This isn't a matter of one or two people saying "you are wrong." This is representative of the magic community saying, "This is wrong."
This is a microcosm of society in general. When society in general considers it wrong to murder another person, guess what? Regardless that one or two or three people disagree, IT'S WRONG.
You can feel free to disagree, rationalize, excuse, explain, and generally carry on as if you have your fingers stuffed so far in your ears that they touch one another. It doesn't change the fact that the magic community, generally, believes is wrong the actions of Brad Christian regarding the inclusion of tricks which he either did not create, or for which he did not obtain permission to include in his course(s).
Your, and your compatriot's Jim Rome Monkey/Clone Response would be amusing if it were on the Jim Rome Show. But it's not.
Action is being taken. It's being ignored, but its being taken, thereby answering your charge about how society should deal with wrongness.
What then? What is the appropriate action when wrong is pointed out, but correction is ignored?
See, that's the hidden punishment that cannot be understood by The Clones. It isn't until it becomes important to you people the joys and benefits of access to the real creators of magic that you realize how harmful your actions have been.
Until then, we have the bleeting of sheep, ignorant of anything but the green grass at their feet.
Pal, this is about respecting the art of magic. This is about honoring something that deserves to be honored. It's also a concept I find not so subtly lacking in the responses in favor of ellusionist's wares.
"Good" John said this yesterday, and I'll echo his words: "Sad, really."
(bad) John W. LeBlanc
Houston, TX
No, that John W. LeBlanc is...sleeping. Yes, that's it. He's sleeping. And while the "good" John sleeps, the "bad" John is going to respond to this tripe:
Ah, the joys of youth.Originally posted by Ralph:
on the subject of "morality"
2)
Please understand one thing, now and forever. Whenever someone says the word "wrong" he is stating an OPINION. The word "wrong" is synonymous with "I don't like this." The problem is that because of some reasons which I will happily NOT go into, people think that the words "right" and "wrong," are absolutes, i.e. instead of recognizing that when they use the word "wrong" they are stating their personal opinions, they think that they are stating metaphysical truths or facts...
The ignorance that blinds youth to the fact that there is a whole world that exists outside of the five-foot bubble that surrounds them, around which the sun, moon, and stars obviously revolve.
What you are failing to take into consideration, "Ralph", is that "magic" is a community.
Part of that community may be found here. Dare I say, the better, more involved, more influential, more vocal, more respectful part of magic is right here, in the Genii Forum.
This isn't a matter of one or two people saying "you are wrong." This is representative of the magic community saying, "This is wrong."
This is a microcosm of society in general. When society in general considers it wrong to murder another person, guess what? Regardless that one or two or three people disagree, IT'S WRONG.
You can feel free to disagree, rationalize, excuse, explain, and generally carry on as if you have your fingers stuffed so far in your ears that they touch one another. It doesn't change the fact that the magic community, generally, believes is wrong the actions of Brad Christian regarding the inclusion of tricks which he either did not create, or for which he did not obtain permission to include in his course(s).
Your, and your compatriot's Jim Rome Monkey/Clone Response would be amusing if it were on the Jim Rome Show. But it's not.
Guess what?
In an open society the way that conflicts between values systems i.e. different ideas of what is wrong or right, are resolved is very simple. There is a list that is created of ACTIONS that are punishable. That is all. This list is designed to ensure a well-functioning society. If an action is not on this list, you are free to take it without censure. If it is, and you take it, you are subject to punishment. Nothing about right, wrong or anything else. This kind of system maximizes the freedom of those that live under it.
Action is being taken. It's being ignored, but its being taken, thereby answering your charge about how society should deal with wrongness.
What then? What is the appropriate action when wrong is pointed out, but correction is ignored?
See, that's the hidden punishment that cannot be understood by The Clones. It isn't until it becomes important to you people the joys and benefits of access to the real creators of magic that you realize how harmful your actions have been.
Until then, we have the bleeting of sheep, ignorant of anything but the green grass at their feet.
Pal, this is about respecting the art of magic. This is about honoring something that deserves to be honored. It's also a concept I find not so subtly lacking in the responses in favor of ellusionist's wares.
"Good" John said this yesterday, and I'll echo his words: "Sad, really."
(bad) John W. LeBlanc
Houston, TX
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Pete McCabe
- Posts: 2332
- Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
- Location: Simi Valley, CA
Re: Ellusionist
I have the utmost respect for Tom Stone. He's an excellent magician and an extremely creative guy. He's dedicated, smart, and generous. I've even met him in person.
But this entire 4-pages-and-counting thread would have been completely different if his original response to Ray Pinner had been different.
If only he'd just said something like "Ray, I don't know what other forms of magical instruction you are familiar with, but I think you can do much, much better than Ellusionist.com." Then some brief list of criticisms of ellusionist's products, followed by a couple of suggestions for better products and/or ways to learn magic.
Not only would a thousand magicians have saved many hours of reading, raging, and typing, but most importantly, Ray Pinner and other would have received some very valuable advice in the most reasonable manner. Plus I'll bet 90% of the absurd posts in this thread would never have been written.
This is not to criticize Tom -- his passion for magic is what makes him all those nice things I said above. But next time something like this happens, let's give this approach a try.
But this entire 4-pages-and-counting thread would have been completely different if his original response to Ray Pinner had been different.
If only he'd just said something like "Ray, I don't know what other forms of magical instruction you are familiar with, but I think you can do much, much better than Ellusionist.com." Then some brief list of criticisms of ellusionist's products, followed by a couple of suggestions for better products and/or ways to learn magic.
Not only would a thousand magicians have saved many hours of reading, raging, and typing, but most importantly, Ray Pinner and other would have received some very valuable advice in the most reasonable manner. Plus I'll bet 90% of the absurd posts in this thread would never have been written.
This is not to criticize Tom -- his passion for magic is what makes him all those nice things I said above. But next time something like this happens, let's give this approach a try.
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Guest
Re: Ellusionist
John.
I really don't know what to say. You are accusing me of things (like not respecting the art of magic) that you really have no idea about. You don't know me, my background, my experiences with magic, my attitudes toward it or anything else other than what is written on this and the preceding page. Nothing that I have written could lead one to the conclusions you have drawn. If it can, please show me where the things I have written imply a contempt or disrespect for magic or the creators thereof. If I see how my statements can be read this way, I will be happy to clarify my intent in making it, retract the statement, and apologize.
I don't see what information in my posts has led you to the conclusion that I have no respect for the magic community, other than the fact that I own an ellusionist product and defend the person that published it from what I view as excessive attacks. You of course are free to make up your mind about it. You are free to express your views. if enough people in the community agree they can ostracize ellusionist members, lumping them all together and saying that they "don't respect magic" or are "Blaine wannabees." I think that would be sad for you, and very sad for me, since I am having extreme diffculty growing in magic in total isolation, devoid of any magic community whatosever, and am taking steps to seek out contact and correspondence with some of those very people that you may consider to be leaders of the community.
Like I have said three or four times already, please don't jump to conclusions about my dedication to magic from the fact that i own an ellusionit video and am willing to stand up for Brad against the flood of attacks against him. The very fact that you refer to ellusionist forum members as "clones" betrays your prejudice. I am not a clone of anything, and as you can see, I am willing to defend my views.
oh, btw. there is no such thing as "society considers something wrong." what matters is that a law is written and if you break it, men with guns come to your house and put you in jail. it matters not who agrees, disagrees or anythign else.
Many MANY laws have existed in the past against what most people considered (and consider now) "right." The opinions of the people are totally irrelevant. what matters is "what are the consequnces to taking this action."
Also, feel free not to use quotes around my name. unlike my regular online screenname oboptos or obop, or obie, when I realized that most people in this forum post with their real names I gave it, and have been using it since then in this thread. The posts of "obop" and "Ralph" are mine.
just wondering, how old do you think I am?
I really don't know what to say. You are accusing me of things (like not respecting the art of magic) that you really have no idea about. You don't know me, my background, my experiences with magic, my attitudes toward it or anything else other than what is written on this and the preceding page. Nothing that I have written could lead one to the conclusions you have drawn. If it can, please show me where the things I have written imply a contempt or disrespect for magic or the creators thereof. If I see how my statements can be read this way, I will be happy to clarify my intent in making it, retract the statement, and apologize.
I don't see what information in my posts has led you to the conclusion that I have no respect for the magic community, other than the fact that I own an ellusionist product and defend the person that published it from what I view as excessive attacks. You of course are free to make up your mind about it. You are free to express your views. if enough people in the community agree they can ostracize ellusionist members, lumping them all together and saying that they "don't respect magic" or are "Blaine wannabees." I think that would be sad for you, and very sad for me, since I am having extreme diffculty growing in magic in total isolation, devoid of any magic community whatosever, and am taking steps to seek out contact and correspondence with some of those very people that you may consider to be leaders of the community.
Like I have said three or four times already, please don't jump to conclusions about my dedication to magic from the fact that i own an ellusionit video and am willing to stand up for Brad against the flood of attacks against him. The very fact that you refer to ellusionist forum members as "clones" betrays your prejudice. I am not a clone of anything, and as you can see, I am willing to defend my views.
oh, btw. there is no such thing as "society considers something wrong." what matters is that a law is written and if you break it, men with guns come to your house and put you in jail. it matters not who agrees, disagrees or anythign else.
Many MANY laws have existed in the past against what most people considered (and consider now) "right." The opinions of the people are totally irrelevant. what matters is "what are the consequnces to taking this action."
Also, feel free not to use quotes around my name. unlike my regular online screenname oboptos or obop, or obie, when I realized that most people in this forum post with their real names I gave it, and have been using it since then in this thread. The posts of "obop" and "Ralph" are mine.
just wondering, how old do you think I am?
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Matthew Field
- Posts: 2846
- Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
- Favorite Magician: Slydini
- Location: Hastings, England, UK
Re: Ellusionist
Raymond -- I was not referring to you. I was referring to the type of advertising used to promote Ellusionist, and the sort of people that type of advertising seems to be directed at.Originally posted by Raymond Pinner:
Mr. Feild,Originally posted by Matthew Feild: Most people seeking magic instruction are the same types who collect comic books, and the idea of attracting women is certainly an effective advertising ploy.
I do have alot of respect for you but remarks like this is simply disprespectful and wrong. No i dont read or collect comic books, im no Antonio Sabato Jr. but i do have girl friends, and im not a fat over weight middle aged pervert. Im 22yrs. old and im a Rutgers student. I have been intrested in magic for a long time but the few products that i bought were very disapointing until i found ellusionist.
and im not a fat over weight middle aged pervert
I'm trying to lose weight, myself.
As I said earlier, I'm glad you found these products useful. I hope you keep up your interest in magic, and best of luck at Rutgers!
Matt Field
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Ian Richards
- Posts: 45
- Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
- Location: Dallas, TX
Re: Ellusionist
Hi Ralph,
Every article that is submitted to a scientific journals goes through an extensive editorial and peer review process before it is accepted for publication. This is done in order to ensure that every attempt is made to give proper credit and due reference to previous work. This is what gives the article its scientific credibility. This also enables the readers to distinguish what original contributions the authors of the article have made in advancing their field. It is only because of this rigorous procedure that the article is free to [be] reference[d] in whatever way within the scientific literature.
While this is the norm in science it is far from an accepted practice in magic. Although many magic books also strive to meet this goal with acknowledgements to the likes of Milt Kort, David Michael Evans and Max Maven for assistance with crediting.
I believe that it was Albert Einstein who stated that science is ninety-nine percent perspiration and one percent inspiration. Many magicians in this thread have also argued that this is how the art of magic progresses.
All the best,
Ian
Every article that is submitted to a scientific journals goes through an extensive editorial and peer review process before it is accepted for publication. This is done in order to ensure that every attempt is made to give proper credit and due reference to previous work. This is what gives the article its scientific credibility. This also enables the readers to distinguish what original contributions the authors of the article have made in advancing their field. It is only because of this rigorous procedure that the article is free to [be] reference[d] in whatever way within the scientific literature.
While this is the norm in science it is far from an accepted practice in magic. Although many magic books also strive to meet this goal with acknowledgements to the likes of Milt Kort, David Michael Evans and Max Maven for assistance with crediting.
I believe that it was Albert Einstein who stated that science is ninety-nine percent perspiration and one percent inspiration. Many magicians in this thread have also argued that this is how the art of magic progresses.
All the best,
Ian
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John LeBlanc
- Posts: 903
- Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
Re: Ellusionist
Hmmm.Originally posted by Ralph:
John.
I really don't know what to say. You are accusing me of things (like not respecting the art of magic) that you really have no idea about. You don't know me, my background, my experiences with magic, my attitudes toward it or anything else other than what is written on this and the preceding page. Nothing that I have written could lead one to the conclusions you have drawn. If it can, please show me where the things I have written imply a contempt or disrespect for magic or the creators thereof.
If I see how my statements can be read this way, I will be happy to clarify my intent in making it, retract the statement, and apologize.
Bingo.
I don't see what information in my posts has led you to the conclusion that I have no respect for the magic community, other than the fact that I own an ellusionist product and defend the person that published it from what I view as excessive attacks.
But I don't want to ostracize anyone. I want to welcome into the family of magic everyone who wishes to be part. But I will have to draw the line at urinating on the antique rugs.You of course are free to make up your mind about it. You are free to express your views. if enough people in the community agree they can ostracize ellusionist members, lumping them all together and saying that they "don't respect magic" or are "Blaine wannabees."
Guess how to not feel isolated? Guess what it would take to be part of a larger community of people who are more than willing to mentor, teach, love, and generally give you noogies when the spirit moves them?I think that would be sad for you, and very sad for me, since I am having extreme diffculty growing in magic in total isolation, devoid of any magic community whatosever, and am taking steps to seek out contact and correspondence with some of those very people that you may consider to be leaders of the community.
Come on...guess...
Ralph, one of the things your mother (or the personage acting in the position of maternal instruction) told you is this:
Like I have said three or four times already, please don't jump to conclusions about my dedication to magic from the fact that i own an ellusionit video and am willing to stand up for Brad against the flood of attacks against him. The very fact that you refer to ellusionist forum members as "clones" betrays your prejudice. I am not a clone of anything, and as you can see, I am willing to defend my views.
"You are judged by the company you keep."
I don't know on which planet you reside, but such a thing clearly exists on mine. And I have a sneaking suspicion I am not inhabiting this planet alone.oh, btw. there is no such thing as "society considers something wrong."
From ancient Chaldea to aboriginal tribes in the Amazon to nations today (but apparently present company excepted) society has always decided as a whole right from wrong.
I want to utter an obscenity right now, but I won't. God knows I want to, though. A really good, juicy, loud, incredibly profane set of words that would curl the paint on the ceiling.what matters is that a law is written and if you break it, men with guns come to your house and put you in jail. it matters not who agrees, disagrees or anythign else.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT LEGALITIES.
If you rule your personal life purely and exclusively by the laws, I sincerely -- really, truly sincerely -- feel sorry for you.
I hope you grow up soon, because the the Law of Darwin is knocking at your door.
Intellectually? About sixteen or seventeen. That horrid age wherein self-righteousness and the utter belief of grasping self-truth and the Ways of the Cosmos is beyond any shadow of any doubt.just wondering, how old do you think I am?
Sadly enough, I'll bet you are more than twice that age.
John LeBlanc
houston, TX
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Guest
Re: Ellusionist
I completely agree. The first magic book i ever bought was the card college series, which actually reminded me of an academic work in the way that the crediting was handled.
let's take this example. suppose someone bought a copy of Card College 1-4 that had all refernces to credit deleted. what would the magic community think of that?
sure it is an excellent resource, with detailed thorough explanations and great effects, arranged in a systematic sequence from the most elementary to advanced, but it demonstartes a "lack of respect." That would really be a difficult dillemma i think...
would the fact that it didn't give credit negate its effectiveness as a tool for learning magic?
John...
I am not quite twice that age...I am actually twenty three, so I guess I have some time to "grow up" as you say.
In your mind there are two things that are mutually exclusive owning an e.com product and having respect for the art of magic. I suggest you do some dusting in that head of your and clean out the cobwebs that keep you from seeing that there is quite a large middle. perhaps when you are sufficiently advanced in the art of magic, you begin to care less about actually learning and doing magic on as high a level as you can and more about politics. I am not there yet. I will express my respect by doing magic on as high a level as I can, by reading, studying, thinking in depth about magic, what it is, why it works, what role it plays in my life and the lives of others and so on, instead of worrying about wether credit for the tip over addition goes to Stanley Collins, Jack Merlin or anyone else.
if that makes me a pariah I will be very sad about it, but so be it.
as for your views on "society." tell me how exactly does "society" judge somethign to be right or wrong? in our system, it is by enacting laws. Therefore any discussion about what "society" thinks reduces to a discussion of the law. period. to assert anything else is patently absurd.
incidentally for mosty of social history it has been 1 man not "society as a whole" that has decided what is good or bad, and has made decisions for the entire social group, you should know something about this, since it seems very similar to what you are doing. every individual in them magic community can make up his or her mind on the issue and act accordingly. if the community could ever get together and say "OK, these are our views on this subject in black and white, and here is what happens if you break them" that would resolve this questionoince and for all. until then, every one is entitled to his or her views and can act accordingly.
Personally, I think you would feel much more at home in Soviet Russia, a plce I know a little about.
let's take this example. suppose someone bought a copy of Card College 1-4 that had all refernces to credit deleted. what would the magic community think of that?
sure it is an excellent resource, with detailed thorough explanations and great effects, arranged in a systematic sequence from the most elementary to advanced, but it demonstartes a "lack of respect." That would really be a difficult dillemma i think...
would the fact that it didn't give credit negate its effectiveness as a tool for learning magic?
John...
I am not quite twice that age...I am actually twenty three, so I guess I have some time to "grow up" as you say.
In your mind there are two things that are mutually exclusive owning an e.com product and having respect for the art of magic. I suggest you do some dusting in that head of your and clean out the cobwebs that keep you from seeing that there is quite a large middle. perhaps when you are sufficiently advanced in the art of magic, you begin to care less about actually learning and doing magic on as high a level as you can and more about politics. I am not there yet. I will express my respect by doing magic on as high a level as I can, by reading, studying, thinking in depth about magic, what it is, why it works, what role it plays in my life and the lives of others and so on, instead of worrying about wether credit for the tip over addition goes to Stanley Collins, Jack Merlin or anyone else.
if that makes me a pariah I will be very sad about it, but so be it.
as for your views on "society." tell me how exactly does "society" judge somethign to be right or wrong? in our system, it is by enacting laws. Therefore any discussion about what "society" thinks reduces to a discussion of the law. period. to assert anything else is patently absurd.
incidentally for mosty of social history it has been 1 man not "society as a whole" that has decided what is good or bad, and has made decisions for the entire social group, you should know something about this, since it seems very similar to what you are doing. every individual in them magic community can make up his or her mind on the issue and act accordingly. if the community could ever get together and say "OK, these are our views on this subject in black and white, and here is what happens if you break them" that would resolve this questionoince and for all. until then, every one is entitled to his or her views and can act accordingly.
Personally, I think you would feel much more at home in Soviet Russia, a plce I know a little about.
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Joe M. Turner
- Posts: 422
- Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
- Favorite Magician: Fred Kaps
- Location: Atlanta, GA
- Contact:
Re: Ellusionist
In case you were wondering, that was the sound of the point being missed again.Originally posted by Ralph:
suppose someone bought a copy of Card College 1-4 that had all refernces to credit deleted. what would the magic community think of that?
...
would the fact that it didn't give credit negate its effectiveness as a tool for learning magic?
JMT
Re: Ellusionist
I suppose if anybody decides to write a book on magic they had better not describe the Charlier pass or Hofzinser's Everywhere and Nowhere on the grounds that the inventors have not given their
permission.
Or is there a time limit on disapproval?
Just curious.
permission.
Or is there a time limit on disapproval?
Just curious.
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Guest
Re: Ellusionist
[begin sarcasm]
guys you found me out. I admit it. I have no respect for magic. I am a "move monkey." My real desire is to ruin magic by being good at it, without knwing anything at all about credit or anything else.
I have nothing to contribute to the board, my views on society and history are idiotic, and I don't deserve to be treated with dignity.
I am secretly an alien sent to this planet to create anarchy by trying to promote freedom. Secretly I am trying to pave the way for an alien invasion. we'll see who's laughing then.
[end sarcasm]
I nver said Brad was "right." I never condoned what he was doing. what I said was that you guys should be capable of leaving your politics/ethics and so on aside and evaluating his product as to how it accomplishes its goal of teaching. that has been my main point. later I also wrote that As a beginner I am more interested in doing good magic, than in knowing all about credit, which I do know a little about by the way (i did say the first book I got was card college right?).
anyway, I don't think I'll be posting in this thread again, or on this board for that matter.
bye.
I am sure you are pleased to be rid of me.
guys you found me out. I admit it. I have no respect for magic. I am a "move monkey." My real desire is to ruin magic by being good at it, without knwing anything at all about credit or anything else.
I have nothing to contribute to the board, my views on society and history are idiotic, and I don't deserve to be treated with dignity.
I am secretly an alien sent to this planet to create anarchy by trying to promote freedom. Secretly I am trying to pave the way for an alien invasion. we'll see who's laughing then.
[end sarcasm]
I nver said Brad was "right." I never condoned what he was doing. what I said was that you guys should be capable of leaving your politics/ethics and so on aside and evaluating his product as to how it accomplishes its goal of teaching. that has been my main point. later I also wrote that As a beginner I am more interested in doing good magic, than in knowing all about credit, which I do know a little about by the way (i did say the first book I got was card college right?).
anyway, I don't think I'll be posting in this thread again, or on this board for that matter.
bye.
I am sure you are pleased to be rid of me.
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John LeBlanc
- Posts: 903
- Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
Re: Ellusionist
Ralph, hang on to youth as long as you can, my friend. "Youth" erases a lot of sins. <g>Originally posted by Ralph:
John...
I am not quite twice that age...I am actually twenty three, so I guess I have some time to "grow up" as you say.
No, owning the product is irrelevant to the argument. I own lots of crap.
In your mind there are two things that are mutually exclusive owning an e.com product and having respect for the art of magic.
What is relevant -- and what is "in my mind" -- is your defense of Brad including any material he either did not originate (that is invent), or other people's material for which he did not obtain permission to include.
Clear on that? I said this before. Are you fluent in either French, German or Spanish? I can try stating it in another language if you think it will help.
Add to that what Rosie referred to as cultish behavior on the part of Brad's "followers", and you'll better understand what's "in my head".
Since I don't know you personally, I can only go by what is evidenced by the words you post to this forum.
Yes, I know of this "middle." Lots of us call it "the slippery slope."I suggest you do some dusting in that head of your and clean out the cobwebs that keep you from seeing that there is quite a large middle.
This is why I hold out hope for you turning from The Dark Side.
perhaps when you are sufficiently advanced in the art of magic, you begin to care less about actually learning and doing magic on as high a level as you can and more about politics. I am not there yet. I will express my respect by doing magic on as high a level as I can, by reading, studying, thinking in depth about magic, what it is, why it works, what role it plays in my life and the lives of others and so on, instead of worrying about wether credit for the tip over addition goes to Stanley Collins, Jack Merlin or anyone else.
I think you are misspelling "Congress"; it's coming out "society."
as for your views on "society." tell me how exactly does "society" judge somethign to be right or wrong? in our system, it is by enacting laws. Therefore any discussion about what "society" thinks reduces to a discussion of the law. period. to assert anything else is patently absurd.
Moral right and wrong is decided by a societal majority opinion.
Once society determines a thing wrong, it enacts a law to represent that opinion; provides for adequate punishment for abberant behavior in restitution or in an effort to disuade future behavior, or both. It then enables a method by which those laws may be enforced.
Here in the world of magic, we're still at the societal level. I suppose a case could be made for the concept that a "law" was defined, "charges" have been brought, and a "jury" has spoken.
But I won't mention that.
In fact, while I hope some of what I have said makes sense to you, I fear it won't do so for a while now. But please, feel free to prove me wrong. I want you to prove me wrong in this. Nothing could make me happier. (Well, maybe one or two things, but my wife is in another state, and I gave up Monte Christos a year ago.)
I can hear Jon Racherbaumer whispering in the back of my head. He's saying that if I put any finer point on what I've been trying to state, I'll bleed to death from sheer proximity.
So, short of some profound change in the direction of the wind, really, I'm done.
John LeBlanc
Houston, TX
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Guest
Re: Ellusionist
Guys, you're killin' me.
I have never been the fizziest beer in the six-pack but I know you cannot have a reasonable conversation with someone who is unreasonable.
All the moral and ethical crap aside do you know what kills me about this thread? It is a perfect demonstration of the mentality of our little magical society.
Name any other profession other than magic and being a bag boy at a supermarket where you would consider yourself enough of an expert to actually have an opinion after being on the job for a week, six-months, or a year?
We have guys in magic that bought a presto magic set two years ago and are now giving lectures and writing books. Thats nuts. Crazier than that, some of these books get good reviews!
My favorite in this thread was the guy talking about being a pacifist and still being able to select a good assault rifle. Now come on, think about that for a second. Thats funny.
The real question is; who would you rather have protecting you in a firefight, the pacifist with a really sexy assault rifle or the military guy who has used this weapon every day of his life for 15 or 20 years?
Now this is just me, and Ill be the first to admit I am not the worlds greatest student of magic, but, if I want to learn something about magic I go to the expert on the subject.
Magic is one of the few communities where most of your heroes are pretty approachable guys. Most of them even if they dont like you personally will honestly answer a question for you if you ask it. Hell, many of them may take you on as a student.
This being said, when someone that I know has a boatload of practical experience about something gives me some information. I listen to it. If I disagree with it I may do some more study and come back and ask another question. But honestly, how stupid would I sound if I knew nothing about the subject but I sat there arguing with the experts with my opinion? An opinion that is based in no practical experience only on crap I have pulled out of my head or read on the Internet.
Again, this is only me but this is how all of the guys defending e.com sound to me. Some of the stuff has just been so silly and pious it has made me laugh out loud.
The facts of what our bigger community feels have been painted out for them in gigantic 40 foot letters. Hey if you dig e.com, thats cool. Go get yourself another presto magic set. I dont care. But do not think for a second that doing tricks for a couple of years and owning a few books makes you an expert or a magician. In any other professional field you wouldnt be entitled to have an educated opinion. How can you possibly think magic is any different?
I just find it funny. I refuse to argue with people who have no idea of the concept of what they are talking about. I think the other guys should do the same. Richard K. summed it up beautifully in his post. If they cant get their heads around that pretty easy to understand post then they just dont have a grip on what magic is yet.
I am also still waiting for Brad to go to Florida and show us all what a fantabulous street magician he is. God that still cracks me up.
Best to all and thanks for the laughs.
Dan-
I have never been the fizziest beer in the six-pack but I know you cannot have a reasonable conversation with someone who is unreasonable.
All the moral and ethical crap aside do you know what kills me about this thread? It is a perfect demonstration of the mentality of our little magical society.
Name any other profession other than magic and being a bag boy at a supermarket where you would consider yourself enough of an expert to actually have an opinion after being on the job for a week, six-months, or a year?
We have guys in magic that bought a presto magic set two years ago and are now giving lectures and writing books. Thats nuts. Crazier than that, some of these books get good reviews!
My favorite in this thread was the guy talking about being a pacifist and still being able to select a good assault rifle. Now come on, think about that for a second. Thats funny.
The real question is; who would you rather have protecting you in a firefight, the pacifist with a really sexy assault rifle or the military guy who has used this weapon every day of his life for 15 or 20 years?
Now this is just me, and Ill be the first to admit I am not the worlds greatest student of magic, but, if I want to learn something about magic I go to the expert on the subject.
Magic is one of the few communities where most of your heroes are pretty approachable guys. Most of them even if they dont like you personally will honestly answer a question for you if you ask it. Hell, many of them may take you on as a student.
This being said, when someone that I know has a boatload of practical experience about something gives me some information. I listen to it. If I disagree with it I may do some more study and come back and ask another question. But honestly, how stupid would I sound if I knew nothing about the subject but I sat there arguing with the experts with my opinion? An opinion that is based in no practical experience only on crap I have pulled out of my head or read on the Internet.
Again, this is only me but this is how all of the guys defending e.com sound to me. Some of the stuff has just been so silly and pious it has made me laugh out loud.
The facts of what our bigger community feels have been painted out for them in gigantic 40 foot letters. Hey if you dig e.com, thats cool. Go get yourself another presto magic set. I dont care. But do not think for a second that doing tricks for a couple of years and owning a few books makes you an expert or a magician. In any other professional field you wouldnt be entitled to have an educated opinion. How can you possibly think magic is any different?
I just find it funny. I refuse to argue with people who have no idea of the concept of what they are talking about. I think the other guys should do the same. Richard K. summed it up beautifully in his post. If they cant get their heads around that pretty easy to understand post then they just dont have a grip on what magic is yet.
I am also still waiting for Brad to go to Florida and show us all what a fantabulous street magician he is. God that still cracks me up.
Best to all and thanks for the laughs.
Dan-
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Guest
Re: Ellusionist
Ralph wrote:
Ralph - It'll be a sad day when people are motivated to act ethically only on the basis of a written code. I hope, for your sake, that someday you understand the meaning of the word 'community', and maybe 'shared values'. It's a wonderful thing when a group of people get together because of a common interest and a communtiy develops - one based on mutual respect, professional ethics, and, yes, even common moral beliefs.
Here's an example that perhaps you'll understand. There's no law against being a jerk. You know, just being a mean person in general. But most, if not all, societies frown upon such behavior. Get it?
As for your apparent belief that there's no such thing as objective truth when it comes to right and wrong - Joe was correct when he said that this isn't the place to discuss such things, but I can't help but express the fact that you are wrong (absolutely). Your point of view is what's known as relativism. The consequences of such a view are quite unfortunate.
-David L.
Joe - apparently 'the point being missed' is doing laps, because I just heard that sound again.what I said was that you guys should be capable of leaving your politics/ethics and so on aside and evaluating his product as to how it accomplishes its goal of teaching.
Ralph - It'll be a sad day when people are motivated to act ethically only on the basis of a written code. I hope, for your sake, that someday you understand the meaning of the word 'community', and maybe 'shared values'. It's a wonderful thing when a group of people get together because of a common interest and a communtiy develops - one based on mutual respect, professional ethics, and, yes, even common moral beliefs.
Here's an example that perhaps you'll understand. There's no law against being a jerk. You know, just being a mean person in general. But most, if not all, societies frown upon such behavior. Get it?
As for your apparent belief that there's no such thing as objective truth when it comes to right and wrong - Joe was correct when he said that this isn't the place to discuss such things, but I can't help but express the fact that you are wrong (absolutely). Your point of view is what's known as relativism. The consequences of such a view are quite unfortunate.
-David L.
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Guest
Re: Ellusionist
really? I think the consequences of moral arrogance and absolutism are far worse.
Exactly right there is no law against being a jerk. In our society people can be rude, stupid, arrogant, jerks, without going to jail. this is good. not bad (otherwise most people would be in jail LOL) , and for your information many societies encourage people to behave in a way that we consider to be "jerks."
you obviously misunderstood the intent of my analogy. anyway. it doesn't matter.
I am sure I won't see any of you around.
for the second and hopefully last time.
bye.
Exactly right there is no law against being a jerk. In our society people can be rude, stupid, arrogant, jerks, without going to jail. this is good. not bad (otherwise most people would be in jail LOL) , and for your information many societies encourage people to behave in a way that we consider to be "jerks."
you obviously misunderstood the intent of my analogy. anyway. it doesn't matter.
I am sure I won't see any of you around.
for the second and hopefully last time.
bye.
-
Richard Kaufman
- Posts: 27058
- Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
- Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
- Location: Washington DC
- Contact:
Re: Ellusionist
To one and all who have contributed to this topic: thank you. It has been both instructing, depressing, and bizarre. It is obvious that the world is changing in ways that many of us who've been in magic for a long time simply don't understand.
That said, I also see no point in continuing this thread, since the same points have been repeated several times and no one's opinion has been swayed by the arguments made by either side.
So, I lock this thread and let's all chalk it up to the fact that we are going to agree to disagree. Several years down the line we'll BEGIN to get a feeling about whose point of view is correct. Perhaps ...
That said, I also see no point in continuing this thread, since the same points have been repeated several times and no one's opinion has been swayed by the arguments made by either side.
So, I lock this thread and let's all chalk it up to the fact that we are going to agree to disagree. Several years down the line we'll BEGIN to get a feeling about whose point of view is correct. Perhaps ...
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