Ellusionist

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
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Joe M. Turner
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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Joe M. Turner » January 19th, 2003, 9:15 pm

Originally posted by Brad Christian:
It's pretty clear that Joe took the low road with this one. Given that we're a new advertiser with you I would have hoped he'd at least give it the benefit of a little research although I wouldn't expect a good review JUST because we pay for space (just some research and a little less judgment).
Speaking of things that could benefit from a little more research...

JMT

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Tom Stone
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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Tom Stone » January 19th, 2003, 9:22 pm

Originally posted by Steve Friedberg:
Brian was named "World's Best Close-Up Magician for the New Millennium" on the television special The World Magic Awards."
Oh... sorry for the mistake. Was confused since I've never heard about this award before. So this Brian is in the same league as Juan Tamariz, Lennart Green and those guys then?

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 9:33 pm

Oh... sorry for the mistake. Was confused since I've never heard about this award before. So this Brian is in the same league as Juan Tamariz, Lennart Green and those guys then?
:D I'd hardly think so...I'd suggest you contact him directly to ask him about his qualifications.

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Joe M. Turner
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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Joe M. Turner » January 19th, 2003, 9:39 pm

Equating Gillis with Tamariz may be a bit much, Tom, but I personally have a favorable opinion of Brian Gillis from everything I've seen and read about him. Except, of course, his endorsement of the ellusionist stuff... that disappointed me.

Nevertheless... just because a product has an endorsement from someone I admire or respect... or is produced by an advertiser... or even features a personal friend... does not mean it gets a free pass.

JMT

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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 9:42 pm

Brian Gillis is a phenomenal entertainer, Tom - watch the clip on his site. Amazing.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 19th, 2003, 9:43 pm

We come to the big bump in the road between those who are interested in magic for purposes of art and those who are interested in magic for purposes of commerce.
It's quite clear that most of the people on the Genii Forum are interested in magic as an art, how we can improve it, and our understanding and performance of it. That's what Genii, The Conjurors' Magazine, is also about.
It is not what Ellusionist is about. Ellusionist is about selling product to the public. Period. The idea is to make money for the company. We live in a capitalistic society and by that standard this is a commendable goal. Most people who are trying to make money by selling magic to the public are not interested in credits because the public is not interested in credits: they're interested in secrets. Ellusionist wants to sell them secrets, and Brad is not stupid: he understands that copping the image of David Blaine, and the use of fragmented editing, etc., will appeal to the audience of young kids to whom he is trying to sell his products. This is old news to anyone who's been watching how products are designed and sold for the past 100 years.
So, from his point of view he's doing a good job. If I look at what his goal is, I think he's probably doing the right thing to attain his goal. His goal, however, is not in sync with ANYTHING most of us think about magic.
And never the twain shall meet!
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

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Joe M. Turner
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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Joe M. Turner » January 19th, 2003, 9:54 pm

Richard wrote:
I think he's probably doing the right thing to attain his goal.
I think I even alluded to this point in the opening paragraphs of the review.

This is the latest in a series of successful video releases from ellusionist.com, Brad Christians company which has perfectly matched their products and style to their specific target market.
Regards,
JMT

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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 9:58 pm

I just have to say regardless of what you think of Ellusionist you have to admit that Brad Christian has the balls to both explain his position and defend him self against un-relenting attacks. Also some of those attacks seem very petty and with out any merit.

Why does Ellusionist bother so many of you so much i still dont understant why all the hate. Dont you like to see people do well for them selfs and dont you like to see more people get involved with magic? Why does it bother you that its edited mtv style? Or that there are attractive woman saying you to can do magic? Im sure Brad is the very first to use attractive women in tight clothing!

Serously you keep saying that he steals every thing but your going to tell me you dont use any thing that was created by some one else or more importantly created by one and taught in some one elses book or video? There are countless magic shops check some of them out online they have all kinds of videos on magic what makes theirs ok but Brads bad?

No ones perfect so what if Brad screwed up on who invented 2 card monte and you know what im not even sure he did people are always coming up with similar tricks. Are you telling me that every popular video other then ellusionist always gets every credit right even when some of the magic historians cant agree on who invented what?

Raymond Pinner

Frank Starsinic
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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Frank Starsinic » January 19th, 2003, 10:06 pm

"Revolutionary methods teach powerful street magic in hours"

This is the part that scares me... Ellusionist clips certainly provoke a "Wow, I could do that in HOURS!!!" attitude.

That is what ruins magic for the rest of us. People running around, screwing up a card warp presentation or thinking that they are going to be "Pass-master" by 3:00 pm.

You cannot tell me that joe-shmo off the street is going from nowhere-newbie to doing a perfect triple-lift in "hours".

And so it goes... another newbie performing a classic after practicing for an hour or so, cementing the idea in the heads of those that watch that magic is basically stupid tricks done by a bunch of unrehearsed geeks wanting to get their mommy's approval.

Honestly, I've only seen the clips.

I can only hope that somewhere in the real video he begs the student to "Please Practice Practice Practice", and speaks of the necessity of learning eye contact, timing, misdirection, gestures, hand position, active vs. passive postures, and the other things that make magic....."Magic".

Of course that would require patience and hard work.

And that does not sell videos!

So how come I don't see all the Kaufman books at Borders Books and Barnes and Noble anyhow? :)

Frank

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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 10:26 pm

Brad asks why the fact that he went back and added credits wasn't enough, and Raymond asks why we have such a big problem with Brad's videos.

I've answered these questions before, but since neither of them seems to have bothered to read my reply above, or at least to have understood much of it, I'll say it again, as simply as I can.

We have a problem with what you've done/what you continue to do because simply including credits is NOT enough. To use material by another creator other than yourself, you must have the explicit permission of that creator. PERIOD.

To credit without obtaining permission is still stealing; as I said before, it's just openly admitting who you stole from (when you get the credits right, which as noted above you haven't done, anyway).

How much more clearly do we have to state it for you to get it? If you don't have permission from the creator to teach his material, you have no right to teach his material for any reason. To do so for profit is even more egregious.

If you really want to make good with the magic community, a start would be to pull any of your tapes which use others' material from the market until such time that you recieve permission from all of them to use their material, and to compensate those whose material you used without permission, since you've been making a healthy buck off of their hard work.

Until you do that, I and every other ethical magician I know will continue to, justifiably, have a very large problem with your actions.

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 10:50 pm

How about the ellusionist boys challenge the Genii boys to a magic contest?

Each side gets to put up 5 clips from their members and an impartial web site can judge who does the better magic and who's more entertaining.

And Joe "M" Turner has to participate.

Say when.

Brad.

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 11:04 pm

[bangs head against wall]

Brad, you really don't get it, do you? It's not about who's the better magician, who can pee further from the wall, or any such contest.

It's about the fact that you ripped off creators to make a quick buck, and have shown neither an understanding of why this was wrong, regret for these actions, nor a willingness to make good for your wrongful actions.

And, for the record, I'm not one of "the Genii boys." I have no ties to Genii whatsover. I am merely a fellow performer who is absolutely disgusted by your actions and your blatant disregard for our art.

-Andy Leviss

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 11:08 pm

Oh, get off your high :D horse and have some fun Andy!

..... say when.

Frank Starsinic
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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Frank Starsinic » January 19th, 2003, 11:16 pm

I thought the ellustions clips were misrepresenting what it takes to do good magic.

I'll be impartial. I'll judge.

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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 11:23 pm

Well, your lucky that I can't pull up the clips of myself performing magic, or Team Ellusionist would have been winning by at least 10 points.

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 11:39 pm

Originally posted by Brad Christian:
Oh, get off your high :D horse and have some fun Andy!

..... say when.
Okay, how 'bout we have some fun, Andy-style? What if I come by your place, go through your bedroom, find some cool things I like, and go selling them to others for a quick buck because I think they'll like them, too. Of course, I'll be sure to tell them that it came from your bedroom, because that's the right thing to do, huh?

Then when you start objecting, I'll tell you to lighten up and get off your high horse.

Man, I'm smiling head to toe just thinking of how fun this is gonna be!

--AL:cs

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 11:41 pm

Greetings folks,

Preface to my comment/question: I've seen the Ellusionist commercials on TV. I've downloaded some of the free clips from the Ellusionist website. I do not own, nor have I viewed anywhere (except what is available online) any of the Ellusionist products, thus I can neither endorse nor eschew Ellusionist products.

However, from what I HAVE seen on the commercials and online, I think I can safely comment on the aforementioned claim that the Ellusionist instructor is somehow a clone or a copy of David Blaine. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but seems to me that the following are true:

(a) He doesn't look like David Blaine. DB has dark hair, a dark complexion, tattoos, and a perpetual squint/gaze. Brad Christian (BC) has lighter hair, a fair complexion, no visible tattoos, and presents a more animated, cheerful expression.

(b) He doesn't act like David Blaine. DB has a slow, almost drug-addled manner. His speech is slow, monotone, sometimes feigning uncertainty and confusion to add to the effect of his presentation ("I'm not sure if this will work ... it might not work ... I haven't tried this before but ... Sometimes this doesn't seem to work ... Let's see if we can get this to work"). BC seems more energetic and gregarious, even giddy at times. He speaks faster and with more tonal inflection.

(c) His rapport with the spectator is different from David Blaine's. DB comes off as mysterious, brooding, guru-like, other-worldly, almost spiritual or mystic-like. He stares down his spectators, makes them uncomfortable at times with his gaze and the silent pauses. BC seems to have a friendly and outgoing demeanor, less mysterious, more down-to-earth, inquisitive and co-astonished with the spectator.

(d) Even though the Ellusionist patter demosntrated on the online clip of the Two-Card Monte is almost verbatim to Blaine's presentation, the above-mentioned differences suffice to give it an entirely different flavor or feel to the effect.

My question is, do you agree with the above, and if so, how is BC a copy of DB? If you don't agree, please elaborate upon how BC is a copy of DB.

Gracie',
Jim

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 11:41 pm

You guys all need to take a step back and get off Ellusionist and Brad's back! He made a mistake, was man enough to admit to his mistake, and fixed it. You can't ask for much more than that.

I've been practicing magic now for about 4 months, and all my techniques have been learned from Ellusionist videos. It really says something when I can go into a magic shop and leave the worker who's read all your books and practiced magic for years dumbfounded with my technique and tricks!

Ellusionist videos teach you nothing but the best sleights and tricks and get you thinking like a magician. In EVERY video Brad always states "Practice, Practice, Practice" and be able to do the trick in your sleep before you perform for a spectator.

Face it, you're all jealous because we caught up to you and are blowing by you in our techniques and tricks thanks to Brad and Ellusionist. I can understand why you'd be so whiney and acting like babies...really I understand. Realize your future and bow down to the new masters of magic....and whenever you wanna post some videos I'm game. Remember, I've only been practicing card magic for 4 months, so you have nothing to be afraid of. :)

Brad Christian Supporter and Proud Ellusionist Member,

Brent

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 11:44 pm

Oh, now your talking about breaking the law, and invasion of privacy.

When exactly did Brad break the law? He may have made a mistake like he has said before, but he took the criticism like a man, and he corrected the problem.

The funny thing is, you are going around telling others about their faults when you should be taking a look at your own faults on occasion. When was the last time you stopped to do that?

Also for the record, a lot of you said something about Ellusionist being for beginners, but I have to disagree. I have been practicing magic for 16 years now, and I consider myself extremely advanced. I may not have practiced for 30 years like others, but I am well passed the beginners stage of magic. With that being said, I am a very big fan of Ellusionist products, and will continue to be a supporter of them for the value Brad and his team takes into his customers.

There aren't many dealers out in this world that will help you AFTER you have purchased a video, and AFTER it has left the dealers hands. Brad becomes a friend to each and every person, and shows it when he comes into the his forums, answers each email personally, and will give you the feedback you need.

So think about it, is he really such the bad guy you thought he was?

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 11:48 pm

Originally posted by punk183:
[QB]You guys all need to take a step back and get off Ellusionist and Brad's back! He made a mistake, was man enough to admit to his mistake, and fixed it. You can't ask for much more than that.
That's just it, Brent. HE DIDN'T FIX IT. HE DIDN'T ASK FOR PERMISSION. PROVIDING CREDIT IS NOT FIXING THE PROBLEM, AND IT'S ONLY ADMITTING ONE MISTAKE, THE LESS SERIOUS ONE AT THAT. BRAD'S MAJOR MISTAKE, WHICH HE HASN'T ADMITTED TO YET, IS USING MATERIAL WITHOUT THE CREATORS' PERMISSION.

He has not been man enough to admit that, and until he is, I won't back off.

JWB,
First, see the above.

Second, I was making an analogy to make a point. Yes, Brad's crimes were ethical, not legal. Doesn't make them any less wrong, just makes them less punishable.

Third, I have nothing to hide. I pride myself on my high sense of ethics, and my willingness to always ensure that I have the permission of any other creator whose work I republish/my work is derived directly from. That's much more than I can say of Mr. Christian.

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 11:49 pm

Originally posted by Brad Christian:
Each side gets to put up 5 clips from their members and an impartial web site can judge who does the better magic and who's more entertaining.
Okay, well, yes, entertaining is important. But so is originality and art. I'd guess the average person would say that Gilligan's Island was more entertaining than Hamlet.

I doubt any of us here would claim to be the Shakespeare of magic but many of us aspire to get closer to Hamlet and worry that the "Be a magician quick" approach shuffles people onto a three hour tour.

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 11:55 pm

Originally posted by Andy Leviss:
Originally posted by punk183:
[QB]You guys all need to take a step back and get off Ellusionist and Brad's back! He made a mistake, was man enough to admit to his mistake, and fixed it. You can't ask for much more than that.
That's just it, Brent. HE DIDN'T FIX IT. HE DIDN'T ASK FOR PERMISSION. PROVIDING CREDIT IS NOT FIXING THE PROBLEM, AND IT'S ONLY ADMITTING ONE MISTAKE, THE LESS SERIOUS ONE AT THAT. BRAD'S MAJOR MISTAKE, WHICH HE HASN'T ADMITTED TO YET, IS USING MATERIAL WITHOUT THE CREATORS' PERMISSION.

He has not been man enough to admit that, and until he is, I won't back off.
First of all, exactly which effect does he need to ask for permission to work with?

Second of all, some of the creators of these effects aren't living anymore, and I don't think they will be needing it anymore.

Also, there are many effects that we don't even know the creator of in the first place, or have it wrong even.

I think Michael Ammar is a highly respectable magician, and most of you would probably agree. I have a video of Michael Ammar's that doesn't give credit to any other magician. He sells this video, and he gets praise for it as well, but he doesn't credit another magician for any of the effects. This video is called Icebreakers, and it is targeted(like many of Ellusionist products)to beginners.

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 19th, 2003, 11:55 pm

Originally posted by frank starsinic:
"Revolutionary methods teach powerful street magic in hours"

This is the part that scares me... Ellusionist clips certainly provoke a "Wow, I could do that in HOURS!!!" attitude.

That is what ruins magic for the rest of us. People running around, screwing up a card warp presentation or thinking that they are going to be "Pass-master" by 3:00 pm.

You cannot tell me that joe-shmo off the street is going from nowhere-newbie to doing a perfect triple-lift in "hours".

And so it goes... another newbie performing a classic after practicing for an hour or so, cementing the idea in the heads of those that watch that magic is basically stupid tricks done by a bunch of unrehearsed geeks wanting to get their mommy's approval.

Honestly, I've only seen the clips.

I can only hope that somewhere in the real video he begs the student to "Please Practice Practice Practice", and speaks of the necessity of learning eye contact, timing, misdirection, gestures, hand position, active vs. passive postures, and the other things that make magic....."Magic".

Of course that would require patience and hard work.

And that does not sell videos!

Frank
So, honestly, Frank, if you've only seen the clips then why are you so hasty to rush to a judgement about the videos and the people who pay for them. C'mon, give people a little credit (pun intended)! Sure you're going to have the occasional idiot buy the video and decide he can do magic in an hour. So, who's to stop him. The same kind of idiots are out there buying other videos too, and doing the same thing. Yes, Brad does tell you to practice. Repeatedly. The videos tell you never to perform an effect twice for the same person, never tell how it's done, and to practice, practice, practice.
As far as being able to do effects in hours, well, it's certainly possible. Not everyone has the same learning curve or abilities, and they may not be a master yet, but there are some sleights you can be doing within hours. I'll stick my neck out and assume that there are more people like me, that buy the videos and excercise common sense and good judgement before trying to perform, than there are like your fictitious joe-shmo who's going out in hours thinking he's Blaine. Sure, I tried my first trick a few hours after the watching the video, but it was a simple effect, and hey, how else are you supposed to learn if you can't practice on a real person. I mean, really, you can practice sleights by yourself all day, but you won't get real feedback or an opportunity to work on your misdirection skills if you're only spec is your shadow.
The videos include everything you listed in your paragraph about what makes up "real magic". Ellusionist's videos are not just about trying to make a buck. They're about trying to make an artform available to more people. They're about trying to give people the appropriate knowledge and skills to perform and entertain at the highest possible level. I can understand not wanting everyone to know how to do it, because then the people who aren't any good wouldn't be entertaining. It's just like any other aspect of life though- It doesn't matter how many people perform magic or even how many people expose magic, because a good performer is still going to rise to the top and blow your socks off.

Casey

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 20th, 2003, 12:06 am

Magic is suppose to be entertaining. Hamlet may be boring to most people now but thats because its written in middle english and most people dont understand middle english. Why dont they understand it you ask? Because its old and out of use and its been done before. Today new english is changing every day and im sure you dont like that either. Now im not qualified to be giving an english lesson but i am qualified to make a point - thing evolve, the lesser gives way to the greater its natural selection.
"Face it, you're all jealous because we caught up to you and are blowing by you in our techniques and tricks thanks to Brad and Ellusionist. I can understand why you'd be so whiney and acting like babies...really I understand. Realize your future and bow down to the new masters of magic" punk183
I really could not have said it better my self. Ellusioist and superhandz and all the other up and coming are the future like it or not. How many young people have you tried to pass your art to? Brad has passed his to thosands and he was taught by slydini and he was on the tonight show but he wont tell you that because he is much humbler then I.

If you dont like ellusionist compete for their business dont bad mouth them especially when every other book and every other video does the same thing.

Raymond Pinner

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 20th, 2003, 12:11 am

First of all, exactly which effect does he need to ask for permission to work with?
Any that he didn't create himself.

Second of all, some of the creators of these effects aren't living anymore, and I don't think they will be needing it anymore.
If they're dead, that doesn't give him the right to use it. Death does not mean it's no longer theirs. I'd suggest that, failing a legal guideline for such things, those of an ethical bent would do well to mirror those guidelines used to determine when other works of art fall into public domain, which is well beyond the time of the creator's death.

Also, there are many effects that we don't even know the creator of in the first place, or have it wrong even.
Ignorance does not remove culpability.

I think Michael Ammar is a highly respectable magician, and most of you would probably agree. I have a video of Michael Ammar's that doesn't give credit to any other magician. He sells this video, and he gets praise for it as well, but he doesn't credit another magician for any of the effects. This video is called Icebreakers, and it is targeted(like many of Ellusionist products)to beginners.
Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't know for a fact that Mr. Ammar didn't have the permission to teach that material; if he did, he's no better than Brad.

I also agree that he was wrong not to credit it, and you'll note that on every video Mr. Ammar has released in recent years, he has credited every creator. He's also publicly stated (I know, because I was the one to pose the question) that he has made sure to get permission for everything he's used. This is a claim others have debated, but again, I have no proof one way or the other; if those who contest his claims are correct, I think he is as much in the wrong as Brad is.

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 20th, 2003, 12:13 am

Originally posted by Raymond Pinner:
Magic is suppose to be entertaining. Hamlet may be boring to most people now but thats because its written in middle english and most people dont understand middle english.
While we're on the subject of things that need proper research, Shakespeare did not write in Middle English. If he did, you wouldn't be able to understand very much of it at all. Shakespeare wrote in an older form of Modern English.

Middle English was the form of English used from the 12th to 15th centuries A.D.; Shakespeare lived from 1564-1616, which means his life spanned the first two centuries of Modern English. Hamlet specifically was written in the 1600s, having first been performed in 1603.

If you want Middle English, take the first few lines of Layamon's Brut, published c. 1190-1205 A.D.:
A prest was in londe. Laweman. was hote.
he was Leucais sone. lef him beo Driste.
He wonede at Ernleie wid an gode cnite.
uppen Seuarne. merie er him ohte.
faste bi Radistone er heo bokes radde.
Hit com him on mode. & on his onke.
at he wolde. of Engelond e ristnesse telle.
wat e men hi-hote weren. and wan[e]ne hi comen.
e Englene lond rest afden.
after an flode. at fram God com.
at al ere acwelde. cwic at hit funde.
bote Noe and Sem. Iaphet and Cam.
and hire four wifes. at mid ham ere weren.
Loweman gan wende. so wide so was at londe.
That's Middle English.

--AL:cs

P.S.-For those interested, you can find a translation of Brut at http://www.sunysb.edu/eurolangs/mvl141/layamon1.htm

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 20th, 2003, 12:24 am

If you want, you can stand and recite Shakespeare for the contest.

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Tom Stone
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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Tom Stone » January 20th, 2003, 12:31 am

Originally posted by Raymond Pinner:
If you dont like ellusionist compete for their business dont bad mouth them
Raymond... didn't you start this thread by asking about opinions about Ellusionist? Well, if you wasn't ready to accept the opinions of others, then, perhaps, you should have asked something else instead?
especially when every other book and every other video does the same thing.
That's simply not true in most cases. And in the cases where it is true, the offenders get treated in the same way.
May I direct you to an interesting article on one of the topics discussed here? It's an article titled "Covert theft" by Peter Duffie: (Link here)

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 20th, 2003, 12:33 am

It would appear to me that this discussion has shifted to purely ethical issues.... Here's what I think.

1) For a commercial business, perhaps we would like to also note that he does present his teaching material very well. If he is capable of teaching in a way that is easy to understand wouldn't that be a thing to take note?

2) Alright, he made a mistake, and he had admited it.... who here is perfect? Please raise your hand..... Hmmm.... anyone??

3) Brad may advertise that he teaches in easy ways.... however, it can be seen from the forums that people who learn from them are highly discouraged from demostrating them before mastery. I think the forum would be a good place to taste the type of environment that's there.

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 20th, 2003, 12:39 am

First of all, let me say I have been doing magic for only two years, so i would never dream of comparing myself as a magician to the people posting in this thread, Andy, Tom Stone, Richard Kaufman et al. Compared to these guys, I can only say that I am able to hold a deck of cards, perhaps correctly. Looking from their level, I consider myself a rank beginner.

Andy's point about credit and PERMISSION is a good one. You can make a case that Brad SHOULD get the permission of Roy Walton and Michael Ammar to teach their effects on his tape (to my knowledge all other originators of effects taught on e.com products are long since dead). It is a fact, however, that in some cases the set of what is ALLOWED encompasses more than what one thinks "SHOULD" be. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and to express it in as vocal a way as you wish, but it will remain your opinion, until some system is put in place to give such actions a set of consequences. From what I understand, what Brad has done is not illegal, and aside from pissing people off, has no real consequences. Realistically, all you guys can do is call Brad mean names, say he is ruining the art and so on. I don't think that he really cares. While you guys huff and puff, Brad is laughing all the way to the bank. Is this good? bad? I am not sure, but I do think that continually berating Brad and attacking his products based on issues unrelated to their quality as teaching materials is unfair, and is getting tiresome. The fact is, like it or not, ellusionist is here to stay.

If you are going to evaluate the products, evaluate them as to the way that they accomplish their designated purpose, not wether they agree with your personal code of ethics.

even if I am a pacifist, as a rational being, I should still be able to form an opinion about which machine gun is better in a firefight, or explain why some specific machine gun is not good based on the functioning of the gun itself, rather than just repeating "violence is bad."

Peronally, I do think some of the videos have flaws (what doesn't?). I also think that NINJA 1 has been mismarketed, and sold to a lot of people who aren't ready for it. The pass should NOT, in my opinion, be one of the first moves learned in magic. Yes, many of the people who buy the videos do NOT understand how to practice, or how an effect should look when performed Is this Brad's fault? I would say no. the situation would be no different if they were reading RRTCM or Card College. Those who are fortunate enough to have personal training from another magician don't have such problems, those that don't (like me) have to develop this sense on their own. It is difficult; for me it is a process, not an outcome.

Anyway, I appreciate your opinions on the matter. For me, magic, is a hobby, albeit a serious one, perhaps even a passion; for some of you I am sure, magic is LIFE. It is difficult to be fair or objective about something so important to you.

Matt Sedlak
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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Matt Sedlak » January 20th, 2003, 12:40 am

Originally posted by punk183:

I've been practicing magic now for about 4 months, and all my techniques have been learned from Ellusionist videos. It really says something when I can go into a magic shop and leave the worker who's read all your books and practiced magic for years dumbfounded with my technique and tricks!

Face it, you're all jealous because we caught up to you and are blowing by you in our techniques and tricks thanks to Brad and Ellusionist. I can understand why you'd be so whiney and acting like babies...really I understand. Realize your future and bow down to the new masters of magic....and whenever you wanna post some videos I'm game. Remember, I've only been practicing card magic for 4 months, so you have nothing to be afraid of. :)

Brad Christian Supporter and Proud Ellusionist Member,

Brent
Wow. As funny as that is, it also brings to light another major problem with Ellusionist and other similar things. First of all it doesnt say anything when you can go into a magic shop and dumbfound the guy behind the counter. While there have been and still are some very good and knowledgable demonstators, for the most part that is not the case. I really doubt you are blowing by us with your technique. Actually I don't doubt it, I know it. While I am unaware of the exact techniques taught by Ellusionist I am positive that there is very little or absolutely no advanced technique on there. I suppose they teach a pass on there and that could be considered advanced depending on your perspective.
However, this attitude is what the main problem is. We have all these younger guys running around thinking they are the best when in fact the only people they are fooling are themselves. I mean read the last paragraph in the quote. Is this really the future of magic? I am a younger guy too and I believe that I have some solid technique and some nice ideas, but I would NEVER think to say something so bold as was posted. Yet he said it FOUR MONTHS into magic. Somebody mentioned to me earlier today that many people get interested in magic and then after a short stay they leave and forget about it. One can only hope that it is still the case although I don't feel it is so. What is going to happen to magic? The only thing I know for certain is that these new "people interested in magic" do not seem capable of doing anything positive for the art.

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 20th, 2003, 12:42 am

First off, let me note that I'm amazed by the number of first time posters who have mysteriously appeared here to defend Mr. Christian by repeating the same incorrect statements over and over again.

Okay, I'm not amazed, but still....

That aside, yet again one of Brad's supporters writes, "Alright, he made a mistake, and he had admitted it."

No, he has not admitted it. He admitted to one mistake, that of not crediting. He has yet to admit to the other mistake, of not obtaining the permission of the creators of the material he taught.

Xela also asks, "If he is capable of teaching in a way that is easy to understand wouldn't that be a thing to take note? [sic]"

If he were teaching his own material, or the material of others who gave him permission to teach it, then yes, it would be a great thing to teach it in a way that is easy to understand. It is of little note, however, when he has no right to teach the material he teaches so well.

I'm sure there are a lot of guys who could teach me how to steal cars better than most professors I've had in college taught me their respective subjects. The fact that they are good teachers doesn't change the fact that they're teaching me something they shouldn't be teaching me.

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Tom Stone
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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Tom Stone » January 20th, 2003, 1:00 am

Originally posted by Raymond Pinner:
but i am qualified to make a point - thing evolve, the lesser gives way to the greater its natural selection.
Sorry, but I have to point out that not only evolution takes place over time; so does erosion. While you seem willing to compare Ellusionist with the former, it is, in fact, the latter.

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 20th, 2003, 1:03 am

It is illegal to steal a car but is it illegal to use a move invented by some one else if they dont give you permission? Im guessing no. Ellusionist teaches about 8 different passes, about 6 different forces, the faro shuffle, countless card switches, all kinds of tenkai techniques and so much more. Why isnt anyone sueing them? Probably because the law dosent allow it otherwise they would have. Oh and king rising is an ellusionist original. I know ellusionist wants to protect it from exposer but if Daryl used it in one of his videos im not sure if they could do any thing about it. If those are the rules of the game then play by them. Im pretty much out of arguments and im not sure if any thing i said was even considered but i hope people have an open mind about it. Oh and originally when i asked about what people thought i really did mean content - how did people think the content of ellusionist videos compared to other videos they own.

Raymond Pinner

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 20th, 2003, 1:10 am

Originally posted by Raymond Pinner:
Magic is suppose to be entertaining. Hamlet may be boring to most people now but thats because its written in middle english and most people dont understand middle english. Why dont they understand it you ask? Because its old and out of use and its been done before. Today new english is changing every day and im sure you dont like that either. Now im not qualified to be giving an english lesson but i am qualified to make a point - thing evolve, the lesser gives way to the greater its natural selection.
Hardly. You don't like older English? Okay. Tell me, what sells more. Schlock romance novels that the authors knock out in a few weeks or contemporary works of literature? Which type of writer makes more money? You think the greater is outperforming the lesser here?

Look. You can learn to do a trick in a few hours. But tricks are not magic. Theyre just one component. And if you think technique makes you a magician, you're doing a major disservice to yourself, your audience, and the art.

Heaven only knows that Ellusionist didn't create the confusion between tricks and magic. But from the marketing, I'd say it's promoting and profiting from the problem.

However, I regret to note that the same could be said of a large percentage of the products promoted in any magic magazine.

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 20th, 2003, 1:12 am

>>>I also think that NINJA 1 has been mismarketed, and sold to a lot of people who aren't ready for it. The pass should NOT, in my opinion, be one of the first moves learned in magic.

_______________________

Obie, on the description page for Ninja-1 we do make this statement:

"Requirements to enter Ninja...

You must have a general knowledge in magic to enter this series. This material is NOT for a strict beginner (if you ARE a beginner go to this page NOW to check out the Street Magic Package on Video... it will be more up your alley). Some of the material in Ninja is "somewhat easy"... the majority is for someone of intermediate level.

_________________________________

>>>>While I am unaware of the exact techniques taught by Ellusionist I am positive that there is very little or absolutely no advanced technique on there

Matt, if you can watch this clip and say we don't teach anything advanced then you AND Daryl are way ahead of me.
http://www.elusionist.com/html/NJA2/preview365.rm

_______________________________

So who's up for the CONTEST? All you boys going to do is TALK? Richard, I'll take you on myself.

C'mon! It'll be fun.

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Tom Stone
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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Tom Stone » January 20th, 2003, 1:13 am

I doubt that anyone is getting anywhere. Is there any need to continue this thread?

Guest

Re: Ellusionist

Postby Guest » January 20th, 2003, 1:22 am

Originally posted by Raymond Pinner:
It is illegal to steal a car but is it illegal to use a move invented by some one else if they dont give you permission? Im guessing no.
Raymond,
As I pointed out to our friend JWB in the case of my bedroom comment, my car comment was what's known as an analogy. To quote Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, an analogy is, "a : resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike : SIMILARITY b : comparison based on such resemblance"

In other words, I know it's not the same thing. That was the idea. I was pointing out the similarity in two different things to make a comparison.

We've established that this is an ethical, and not a legal question.

My point was to provide an analogy (there's that silly little word again) by which an understanding for the point I was trying to make would possibly be a little easier to grasp. Apparently I was mistaken.

Tom's right. I'm through with this thread. Have fun, boys.

Matt Sedlak
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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Matt Sedlak » January 20th, 2003, 1:59 am

I am hoping that in the morning when all those crazy people who actually sleep at night wake up they will lock this thread as I agree that this thread is not going anywhere. However, before I decide to leave this thread I would like to answer the question the Mr. Christian asked me. I watched the clip and I still feel that no, the videos are not truly advanced technique. While it is certainly not beginner's level moves I can see nothing on them that would "blow right by me" as was said in an earlier post. A few examples of advanced technique: center reverses, false deals, BoTop and CenTop changes, some riffle shuffle work, the invisible reverse transfer, some multiple shifts, fingertip peek work, etc. Those are merely the tip of the iceberg. Once again, with one exception I saw nothing wrong with the techniques that you were showing, at least from a technical standpoint (let's not even talk about credits and all that yet). However, the fact is that it is not technique that would make you blow by others in four months. This thread does not seem to be progressing at all so I too will be leaving now.

Jon Allen
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Re: Ellusionist

Postby Jon Allen » January 20th, 2003, 5:21 am

Originally posted by Brad Christian:
How about the ellusionist boys challenge the Genii boys to a magic contest?

Each side gets to put up 5 clips from their members and an impartial web site can judge who does the better magic and who's more entertaining.

And Joe "M" Turner has to participate.

Say when.

Brad.
I have no affiliation with either Genii or ellusionist.

Blaine has proved one thing: You can be made to look fantastic on camera.

If there were ever to be a video trick-off, surely it woud be bettter to have a *live* contest in front of a paying audience of neutrals. Then, the magicians who have spent 4 months learning the tricks from the video can go up against the magicians who have learnt by going down a different, more lengthy and detailed route.

Surely it's not about the teachers but the students. If people think they can become magicians because they buy a video that teaches moves, sleights and tricks, then they are somewhat off the mark.

If videos for beginners are about teaching tricks to do for family and friends, with the warning that magic for money is a totally different ballgame, then that's fine. Videos that teach beginners magic so they think they can go out into the world and be magicians are not good for magic in general.

I have not seen the videos in question so I do not know if they have performance technique, routining, handling an audience etc. If they do, then great. If they are meant for people to show a few tricks to their family and friends, then there is no not the need for that sort of level of performance technique.


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