Ellusionist

[Joe M. Turner]

I won't speak for anyone else, but I'm certainly not going to be influenced by the puerile online taunting of an opportunistic thief.

As I said before, this is not and never has been a question of skill. Brad may be very skilled, entertaining, and even an otherwise nice guy. That is completely irrelevant to the points I made in my review as well as on this thread. There are plenty of skilled but unethical people. There are plenty of skilled but slimy opportunists in the world. There are plenty of people who don't care whose image they rip off and whose material they steal as long as they sell a few more DVDs and increase the size of their ego... um, mailing list. It doesn't matter how many millions of copies he sells of Crash Course 1... it is completely antithetical to the philosophy of magic (and ethics) that most of the magicians on THIS board share... at least in my experience. The fact that some people can perform the material that appears on ellusionist products well or entertainingly is not the point at all. That alone does not make ANY product valuable or honorable or good for magic. (Please note comment about high-quality bricks...)

Brad Christian's tactic of attempting to divert attention from the issues at hand by introducing a fantastical but irrelevant "contest" is simply more evidence that he is either unwilling or unable to comprehend the real meaning of the criticisms that have been raised. So be it.

I will refer any readers of this thread to my review and to the posts I have previously made here. They express my opinion quite clearly. I do not think reading any additional and extraneous comments from Brad Christian or any of his ellusionist acolytes will change my opinion at this point.

JMT
...Dad always told me not to get in a pissing contest with a skunk...

[Joe M. Turner]

Originally posted by frank starsinic:
I thought the ellustions clips were misrepresenting what it takes to do good magic.

I'll be impartial. I'll judge.

If that's what you got from reading the review and this thread, I suggest you go back and read them again. You have completely missed the point!

Best,
JMT

[Guest]

Folks:
Can we all take a deep breath here?

Breathe in...breathe out. Breathe in...breathe out. There...isn't that cleansing?

Okay. I think we've all established that we have an opinion, and a rather vehement one at that. I dare say that no one here will be taking Brad up on his challenge any time in the coming millenium, despite Frank's kind offer to officiate.

Do we all realize that if someone outside our art were to stumble on this thread, he or she would laugh themselves silly, over the concept that we're getting blue in the face about something that the vast majority of people could care less about?

Let me suggest a possible solution here: Joe, your reviews are valuable. Keep writing 'em. Even if I don't agree with your opinion..you make me think and see another side of looking at the issue. And that's what reviewers are paid the big bucks to do! :)

Brad, keep selling your tapes. There's a market out there for 'em...if someone feels that you've infringed on their intellectual property, they'll sue you. (Okay, so Marlo won't.) You've been accused of moral theft by others here on this thread. If you agree, you'll take steps to rectify. If you don't, you won't.

And me, I'll go back to doing something that truly matters, like making a living for my family. Oh, and doing the occasional card effect on the side.

[Joe M. Turner]

Thanks for the comment, Steve.

By the way, I'm not blue in the face at all. :)

JMT

[Guest]

Originally posted by Brad Christian:
How about the ellusionist boys challenge the Genii boys to a magic contest?

Each side gets to put up 5 clips from their members and an impartial web site can judge who does the better magic and who's more entertaining.

And Joe "M" Turner has to participate.

Say when.

Brad.

Hey Hack,

I have a better idea. Why dont you take your sorry backside down to Florida and go show for show with Gazzo on the street. After all you are billing yourself as Mr. Street Magic.

Then at the end of the day lets count the money in the hats and see who the public thinks is a better performer. Film that, I dare you. Hell, for the record I double dog dare you.

Now that would be a funny contest. If you want to impress me, and other people who actually do street magic this is what it would take. A hack like you would last about 15 minutes in Harvard Square during a buskers noontime. If you cant make a buck on the street you are not worth dirt.

So, stop bragging and go back to slinging your tapes like they were Svengali decks at a flea market. Leave the real work to those who do it.

Have a great day :) ,

Dan-

[Frank Starsinic]

Originally posted by Joe M. Turner:

Originally posted by frank starsinic:
[b]I thought the ellustions clips were misrepresenting what it takes to do good magic.

I'll be impartial. I'll judge.

If that's what you got from reading the review and this thread, I suggest you go back and read them again. You have completely missed the point!

Best,
JMT[/b]

My comment about the clips was solely based on watching the clips. I did not read your review. What issue is it in?

The other part was just a joke. As in ha ha.

Frank

[Andi]

Originally posted by Danny_Hustle:

I have a better idea. Why dont you take your sorry backside down to Florida and go show for show with Gazzo on the street. After all you are billing yourself as Mr. Street Magic.
[/QB]

You're a hard man Dan... I like it!

I absolutely agree. Anyone who bills themselves as a street entertainer and walks around forcing card tricks in people's faces is just an interruption. I've watched pros like Gazzo work extremely often and can tell you; this is real world street entertainment.

The likes of Gazzo use some extremely strong magic to attract crowds of several hundred people, topped with an incredibly entertaining presentation and give the world a positive attitude of magic.

Can you teach people to do that with your downloads, or is it just about breeding a new pack of move monkies?

--Andi

[Guest]

Originally posted by Andi Gladwin:

Can you teach people to do that with your downloads, or is it just about breeding a new pack of move monkies?

Is that what everyone who downloads from Ellusionist becomes - nothing more than "move monkies"?

HappyTrickster

[Guest]

Originally posted by happytrickster:

Is that what everyone who downloads from Ellusionist becomes - nothing more than "move monkies"?

HappyTrickster

If they are lucky they will be move monkeys. I think Andi was just being kind. They are surely not learning to be magicians.

I dont use the word magician in some lofty or pious way; I am simply stating a fact. Learning a few tricks from a video doesnt make you a magician any more than buying a video on drink mixing and learning how to make 6 cocktails turns you into you a bartender.

Think about it, it is silly. There are much better ways to learn magic. This guy is pitching Svengali's. It isn't meant to be magic, it is designed to make him money.

His 'followers' are learning to be hacks. The kids buying this junk will just really be exposing tricks and not performing them because they will not be learning correctly.

A move monkey implies that there is some skill involved.

Best,

Dan-

[Guest]

For Brad's contest, can I nominate David Acer, Jon Allen, Michael Vincent, Ian Kendall and Whit Haydn from the Genii forum and this guy plus four other similarly skilled performers from the Ellusionist forum? Should be fun.

[Guest]

Thanks for the comments Danny, although i find them a touch presumptuous.

Whilst the majority of us might disagree with what Brad Christian is up to i wouldn't myself go so far as to name call anyone who might or might not have benefited from what he's offering. Are they guilty by association? Not everyone who happens to download from Ellusionist becomes a "follower" thereby. Even if Ellusionist is the only magic they are exposed to, how can we say that all they'll be doing is "exposing tricks"?

Give the guys a little more credit, they might be sincere and genuine... it's not their fault they met the wrong teacher at the wrong time.

HappyTrickster

[magicbar]

Originally posted by Lance Pierce:
What bothers me most is that selling magic in this manner, with its MTV-style editing, cool street shots, and models in tight shirts talking about how you, too, can be a hit at the bar, cheapens the art we so desperately try to maintain as an art. It takes magic as something mysterious and potentially powerful and turns it into a party activity anybody can do once they fork over the dough to buy a video....Granted, this type of thing has ALWAYS gone on, but Ellusionist now has the powerful media of television and the Internet to spread its message, and in a world where it seems that fewer and fewer people are able to distinguish quality from crap, this doesn?t help.

Lance

Within the last few years it seems just about everyone that gets some success selling magic to beginners has been getting heavy criticism. But as you so very well point out it has been going on for years and not just in magic.

I was turned on to TV Magic Cards, sold on TV, by my babysitter who did a copycat routine from the commercial. I later bought a true Svengali deck from pitchmen at a car show. Prior to TV it was through the print ad in mass media. Prior to that it went from barking at events in increasingly bigger venues.

Look at all the ads and pitches through the ages exclaiming "Perform it in minutes!", "No Skill Required!" and "Easy to Master" . The instant gratification these types of products offer will no doubt satisfy a short lived interest in learning magic. Most of these customers are future "Uncle Joes" that will able to perform 'that one trick'.

This goes on in many fields. I talk with old-timers in the bartending field that say the same thing about all these 2-week bartender schools turning out experts. Look at all the trade schools claiming to offer an equivalent to a 4-year degree in half the time. The performers that endure are the ones that do it not just with books and/or videos and/or merchandise and/or mentoring. They will do it the the old fashioned way anyone becomes proficient and perhaps, respected - through practice and hard work. Some things you just can't buy.

I think the best we can do is continue these types of discussions and always fight for truth in advertising. Perhaps then we can keep the newcomers better informed and the ripoff artists in check.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Marc Otterman:
For Brad's contest, can I nominate David Acer, Jon Allen, Michael Vincent, Ian Kendall and Whit Haydn from the Genii forum and this guy plus four other similarly skilled performers from the Ellusionist forum? Should be fun.

I'll tell you Marc, the real treat would be to see Mr. Street Magic try and hold his own show for show with just Gazzo. No need for team magic how about a real man to man no BS buskers hat fest.

This guy claims to have made money on the streets of New York. The stench coming off that statement is pure bovine drizzle. If he is such a great Street Magician let him go up against the best magician still working the streets today. Any guy that walks around with his pants around his ankles and holding a ruler should be able to back up his BS.

I guarantee this nitwit doesnt have what it takes. Let him get out on the bricks in front of the real world for a four-hour pitch against an honest to god street worker and see if he doesnt come up empty. Hes got crap. As they use to say in my old neighborhood, If you cant back it up you better shut it up.

This guy needs to settle down because he just sounds stupid to those of us who know better.

Best,

Dan-

[Andi]

Originally posted by happytrickster:

Originally posted by Andi Gladwin:[b]

Can you teach people to do that with your downloads, or is it just about breeding a new pack of move monkies?

Is that what everyone who downloads from Ellusionist becomes - nothing more than "move monkies"?

HappyTrickster[/b]

I think Danny answered this for me. The only way to learn this kind of stuff is from the masters and of proper street magic there are few. I learnt a heck of a lot from Gazzo during my stay in Boston (Danny... we should definitely hook up for a session next time I'm in Boston) and that was mainly by watching, often from afar in a upstairs shop window. It definately isn't JUST about learning the best pass or double lift. Heck, I'll admit that and I have a DVD being released my original Passes, along with Andy Leviss, Luke Dancy and Mark Aspaziu.

If you're going to learn proper street magic and not misguided interruption techniques than seek the help of Gazzo, Celini and other experts in the area by purchasing their products. I'd pay hundreds of dollars, pounds or golden Vernon statues to learn from someone who has learnt the trade from 1000's of performances a year.

I guess many of us have a lot of passion in this area because we love to watch this kind of material performed well. In a way, it hurts to see some good magic given away to anyone with a passing interest. That's the only reason I've pitched in here... because I hate to see the good stuff passed on to those who haven't started from the beginning and have not yet learnt (or been taught) to appreciate the creators and what they mean to magic.

I think many of us have books like the Royal Road To Card Magic to thank for being where we are. I always suggest that beginners read it because its so difficult to work out first, second and often third time round. If you stick through it and learn everything in there, you'll have the passion and need to learn more. If you hand just about anyone the Miracle Change, without letting them going through that journey, then you've just stole from them the passion that a book like RRTCM can plant in them. Because of this, I didn't consider myself worthy to learn such treasures as Marlo's Miracle Changes for several years into my journey. If you pass this kind of stuff onto someone at the start of the yellow brick road, what are they to do for the rest of the journey? They'll probably regret not starting at the start of the Royal Yellow Brick Road of Card Magic. I know I would. Hey, they even have credits as well. :D

--Andi

[Guest]

Originally posted by happytrickster:
Thanks for the comments Danny, although i find them a touch presumptuous.

Not everyone who happens to download from Ellusionist becomes a "follower" thereby. HappyTrickster

I never said they were. Isn't that a bit presumptuous on your part? :)

I was only talking about his 'followers'. Believe it or not he has some, and they think he is the end all be all.

Kind of sad really.

Best,

Dan-

[Guest]

Please don't lump everyone who owns an ellusionist product or participates in Brad's forum into the class of "move monkeys" or "followers"

It is extrmemly judgmental and totally unwarranted.

If it continues I will be forced to lump all genii forum members into the category of "judgemental pretentious [censored]."

[Guest]

Originally posted by Danny_Hustle:

I was only talking about his 'followers'. Believe it or not he has some, and they think he is the end all be all.

Give the guys a little more credit, they might be sincere and genuine... it's not their fault they met the wrong teacher at the wrong time.

HappyTrickster

[Andi]

Originally posted by obop:
Please don't lump everyone who owns an ellusionist product or participates in Brad's forum into the class of "move monkeys" or "followers"

It is extrmemly judgmental and totally unwarranted.

If it continues I will be forced to lump all genii forum members into the category of "judgemental pretentious [censored]."

Please re-read my post. I did not brand people who purchase Brad's work as move monkeys. Instead I suggested that the contents of his videos have the wrong focus and seem to teach a lot more about fancy moves than getting out there and promoting magic.

--Andi

[Pete McCabe]

First off, a big shout out to Raymond Pinner for being, as near as I can tell, the only person on expressing a positive opinion about Elusionist who is willing to actually use his name. Aside from Mr. Christian, of course. (This is mutiny, Mr. Christian, mutiny! And I will not have it on board my ship!).

Second, regarding Brad's suggestion that someone on the Genii team could stand and recite Shakespeare for the contest: I think you could make a very nice routine whose script would be the "To be or not to be" soliloquy. Perhaps a coin appears (to be) and disappears (not to be).

[Matthew Field]

As tired as I've become with this thread, I've still got to add one thing. The history of people making introductory-level books and videos is a long one. Brad Christian seems to be serious magician, and he's following in the footsteps of, among others, Prof. Hoffmann ("Modern Magic"), Michael Ammar ("Secrets of the Astonishing Executive" and the "Easy to Master" series) and Jamy Ian Swiss ("Magic for Dummies" contributor) as well as Jeff Busby ("Klutz Book of Magic" and Karl Fulves ("Self Working Card Tricks," "The Magic Book" etc.). It's a long history.

Brad is climbing on the coattails of the popularity of David Blaine. Is Brad a "street magician"? Is Blaine? I think the answer to both questions is "no."

Joe M. Turner and others decried Brad's neglect of crediting, and Brad admitted he was wrong and has, apparently, corrected at least some ommisions on updated versions of his video. He's not the first to use tricks and methods without permission, we could reference Michael Ammar again.

Is this permissible? Is it commendable? Is it unique to magicdom?

I believe the answers to these questions is "No," but let's not single one guy out for trying, as Richard Kaufman said many posts back, to make a buck. He's not the devil incarnate. The women in the ad for his videos are on the same level as those hanging around the Copperfield TV specials, and that's too bad, but SEX SELLS! Most people seeking magic instruction are the same types who collect comic books, and the idea of attracting women is certainly an effective advertising ploy.

Joe gave the video a bad review. I haven't seen it and don't plan to. Brad is not sending his videos to Joe for review. Boo-hoo. He's annoyed that he advertised in Genii and they had the temerity to show journalistic honesty. Who should I feel sorry for?

Let's move on. It's only a video, for crying out loud, and one not aimed at most of the people reading or posting to the Genii Forum

So, . . . what do you really think of Herbert L. Becker? :D

[Guest]

Originally posted by obop:
Please don't lump everyone who owns an ellusionist product or participates in Brad's forum into the class of "move monkeys" or "followers"

"judgemental pretentious [censored]."

1. I didn't lump THEM ALL in. I said he had followers, I said he was teaching them to be hacks. I didn't say they were hacks.

2. I also resent the fact that you would call me judgmental, as far as the other two words go, well you caught be on a bad day. :)

Best,

Dan-

[Guest]

LOL.

Like I said, there seems to be quite a condescending attitude being thrown around toward those who are not "advanced." whatever that means.

That was a distinct vibe I got from many of the posts in the thread. Perhaps I am overly attuned to subtext in online messages, or maybe I am imagining things. Still, I did reread the thread and noticed it in some posts.

Not all of us have had the many excellent opportunities for learning magic that some of you may have had. It does not mean we are not seeking them out.

As for the last part, please read the entire sentence. It is still up in the air.

just so that you guys don't think I am making things up

"So, stop bragging and go back to slinging your tapes like they were Svengali decks at a flea market"

what does that say about those that buy them?

"If they are LUCKY they will be move monkeys. I think Andi was just being kind. They are surely not learning to be magicians."

what will we be if we are unlucky? It really doesn't sound like you expect any of us to be serious, devoted students, who practice, rehearse, write scripts, create presentations or anything else. it sounds to me like you DO think we are a bunch of hacks, despite your protests to the contrary.

Incidentally, my name is... it was here but I deleted it.

[Guest]

Originally posted by obop:
LOL.

Like I said, there seems to be quite a condescending attitude being thrown around toward those who are not "advanced." whatever that means.

That was a distinct vibe I got from many of the posts in the thread. Perhaps I am overly attuned to subtext in online messages, or maybe I am imagining things. Still, I did reread the thread and noticed it in some posts.

Not all of us have had the many excellent opportunities for learning magic that some of you may have had. It does not mean we are not seeking them out.

As for the last part, please read the entire sentence. It is still up in the air.

just so that you guys don't think I am making things up

"So, stop bragging and go back to slinging your tapes like they were Svengali decks at a flea market"

what does that say about those that buy them?

"If they are LUCKY they will be move monkeys. I think Andi was just being kind. They are surely not learning to be magicians."

what will we be if we are unlucky? It really doesn't sound like you expect any of us to be serious, devoted students, who practice, rehearse, write scripts, create presentations or anything else. it sounds to me like you DO think we are a bunch of hacks, despite your protests to the contrary.

Incidentally, my name is Ralph Boleslavsky.

Ralph,

1. I have been known to pitch Svengali decks. I was just pointing out that ol Mr. Street Magic was pitching his tapes the same way. It says nothing about those who buy them. It says Captain Street Magic was challenging all comers and I thought that was pretty funny. Nothing like seeing a grown man beat his chest while his pants are around his ankles and hes holding a ruler.

2. I love beginners to magic.

3. I suspect that 90% of the people he pitches these tapes to are not serious, devoted students, who practice, rehearse, write scripts, create presentations or anything else. His target audience is lay people same as Marshall Brodiens was. Using this comparison, most of the folks who bought T.V. Magic Decks were not learning good magic either. Although many, many, professional magicians of my generation have very fond memories of hearing, Its easy once you know the secret.

4. I think the guy pitching this crap is a hack when it comes to street magic. He was throwing down challenges left and right so I am calling him on it. If he wants to prove that he is Captain Street Magic (Does he get to wear a cape?) he should shag his lame backside down to the sunshine state and put up or shut up against the best guy working the street right now. Will he do it? Of course not. He knows a poser cannot beat the genuine article. I think hes a fraud.

Im not even getting into the entire ethical issue, which is almost as idiotic. Does that clear it up?

Best,

Dan-

[John LeBlanc]

Originally posted by JWB81:
The funny thing is, you are going around telling others about their faults when you should be taking a look at your own faults on occasion. When was the last time you stopped to do that?

What does that have to do with the argument at hand -- namely, the merchandising of intellectual property without obtaining permission?

Oh yeah, nothing.

Also for the record, a lot of you said something about Ellusionist being for beginners, but I have to disagree. I have been practicing magic for 16 years now, and I consider myself extremely advanced.

16 years? You started when you were 5 years old?

With that being said, I am a very big fan of Ellusionist products, and will continue to be a supporter of them for the value Brad and his team takes into his customers.

It's really a shame you are missing completely the point others are making with clarity. This tells me either you do not want to acknowledge the truth, or you acknowledge it, but you don't care.

So think about it, is he really such the bad guy you thought he was?

Actually, my opinion of Brad has changed since this thread started. And thanks to his failure to acknowledge the fact that he has not obtained permission to include the work of others in his merchandising, my opinion of him is lower now than it was to start with.

And that's not saying much.

BTW, since you are the 21 year old Jonathon Bagwell of Rome, GA selling for $50 lessons to "the hard hitting effects as performed by a famous street magician that everybody knows, David Blaine, as well as many famous close up artist, and stage magicians as well. Have you looked at these specials on TV, and wanted to know how this was done? I am going to teach you how to get the same impact"

http://hometown.aol.com/jwb81/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/magicatyourfin ... /Home.html

...I can see where the basic subject matter of this entire thread would be a bother to you.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX

[David Mitchell]

John.... I think you got Obop and someone else mixed up. There is indeed a user here with the name you researched, but I think that they are different people.

Anyways.... as much as I would like to continue debating something that is NEVER going to be solved, I see no point in it.

In all honesty people, there is going to be NO resolution to this, here, at this point in time. Everyone is getting worked up, some more than others, and quite frankly, at this point in time, I am deciding that it's not worth my time, or my energy to even keep up with what everyone it typing. All this hate, spite and malice, is a little draining, and a lot less honourable than what I thought magicians were supposed to be.

We all have our opinions, and god forbid anyone try to change our minds on those opinions, but don't you think that at this point in time, everyone here has realized that no matter what your opinion is, most of us aren't going to change it?

Andy: You've been level headed, and I've seen (using the term loosely) you bang your head on the keyboard as you type your messages. Some people get it, some people don't, and other choose to ignore what you say. However, can't you at least admit, that no matter how much you rant and rave, and go on about how much this matters to you, that people out there are going to have a different opinion, of what all this about?

Everyone... really.. as informative as some of this thread is... it really should be closed. No good can come of people arguing their morals, and their ethics to a group of people who AREN'T THE SAME AS THEM!

Either way.. this is one fight I am staying out of.

David.

[Guest]

David aka Kronos...

I am actually the user "by that name." I try to avoid using my actual name online as much as I can, but what the hell.

OK. I understand that there was no personal offence meant. I accept that I may have had a chip on my shoulder. I hope you guys can understand.

I too will leave this topic alone. I hope I haven't offended too many of you LOL.

[Richard Kaufman]

I find the tone of this thread disappointing. We who have been in magic for many years are generally extremely helpful to people who are just learning unless they are arogant jackasses. We all recognize that without that passing of the knowledge our art will die.
Unfortunately, it seems that some of the people who buy Ellusionist products think that in short order they know what magic is all about. Needless to say, we find this annoying.
Frankly, I'm mystified by the post from someone who said they've been in magic for many years and learned something from the Ellusionist videos.
I also think Brad Christian's "challenge" is an extremely silly one. I can get up in front of laymen and drop my pants to reveal some funny boxer shorts and get a great reaction: it takes no talent and no skill. Or, you can toss a pie in my face--that also takes no skill and will get a big reaction.
I am now repeating my post from yesterday and I want you all to read it closely! Then discuss it! If you think I'm full of [censored], then address that point in an intelligent manner.
We come to the big bump in the road between those who are interested in magic for purposes of art and those who are interested in magic for purposes of commerce.
It's quite clear that most of the people on the Genii Forum are interested in magic as an art, how we can improve it, and our understanding and performance of it. That's what Genii, The Conjurors' Magazine, is also about.
It is not what Ellusionist is about. Ellusionist is about selling product to the public. Period. The idea is to make money for the company. We live in a capitalistic society and by that standard this is a commendable goal. Most people who are trying to make money by selling magic to the public are not interested in credits because the public is not interested in credits: they're interested in secrets. Ellusionist wants to sell them secrets, and Brad is not stupid: he understands that copping the image of David Blaine, and the use of fragmented editing, etc., will appeal to the audience of young kids to whom he is trying to sell his products. This is old news to anyone who's been watching how products are designed and sold for the past 100 years.
So, from his point of view he's doing a good job. If I look at what his goal is, I think he's probably doing the right thing to attain his goal. His goal, however, is not in sync with ANYTHING most of us think about magic.
And never the twain shall meet!

[David Mitchell]

Richard.

I've been reading your magazine for a year now, and I respect it, and what I read in it highly. However, one can learn something they didn't know from almost anywhere, provided that they are open minded enough to to realize that just because what magic means to one person, doesn't make it any less valid than what it means to the next person.

There are many people involved in magic for the love of it, and I commend these people. I am not going to get rich with magic, but I love it. There are many people involved with magic to make money off of it. Frankly, I don't find anything wrong with this. People are going to make money where they can.

No one here is arguing with yours, Joe, or anyone else's love for magic, and it's value as art, and it's appreciation and understanding of it.

The thing is, for me, my magic is highly personal. Nobody, I feel, has the right to tell me how to learn it, or how to buy it. Nobody here has the right to classify me as a "monkey" simply because I chose to purchase something, that everyone else here doesn't like. Nobody has the right, to insinuate that they are better than me, because I don't think like them, because I don't do what they do, or that don't have the same values as they do. I have seen countless posts here, that have said "if you don't value what I value, then your values mean nothing".

We have to respect the views and opinions of people making these statements, but where does it say that they can't accept others at face value.

Magic Business, and Magic Art may never meet, but it doesn't mean that they constantly have to war with each other.

If Genii started losing money, would you keep it running because of the art? I am sure you would try, but in the long run, your BUSINESS sense would take over. Face it, magic business is what drives, magic art. They shall never meet, but I don't think that they could exist without each other.

Then again... it seems this is all the ramblings of a hack.

David.

[Jon Allen]

There have been a number of posts since I looked so this may seem a bit late.

I hear people talking about various moves, sleights and tricks on the videos, but then I hear that Brad Christian is a street magician. Gazzo is a street magician in the true sense of the word. He *works* the street as opposed to doing card trick to people in the street.

Brad, can I ask what type of magic you teach in the videos? Is it street magic like Gazzo does or is it magic that is just performed to people on the street (a la Blaine) instead of indoors ? If it is simply tricks and sleights, as it appears to be, is there a need to do it on the street?
Which is it? What do people who buy the video think they will be able to do once they learn everything taught on the video?

Also, I was flattered to be put forward for the contest that will never happen. I would put myself up for reciting Shakespeare. The English accent makes all the difference!

[Scott]

Ahhh...Gazzo....

Nothing more amazing that watching Gazzo work a crowd of 200, dazzling them with "The Raven". Now that's street magic. I can remember seeing him standing there with one sleeve up and one down while he forced little kids to stand and watch in disbelief at that coin disappeared and then both sleeves were up.

Ohh...am I mistaken? Gazzo doesn't use a Raven? Then I must have been watching REAL street magic happen. Good call Danny- I challenge Brad to take on Gazzo as well. What an incredible Street Magician Gazzo really is. Words cannot describe.

[MaxNY]

"Move Monkey" HaHa! I've never heard that one before..

[Guest]

To David Mitchell:
David, if you're a hack, then we should all be as much of a hack as you.

Your post shows tremendous common sense...something of which there's been a significant lack of in this thread.

I'd urge everyone who's posted here to re-read his thoughts. And keep this thread going if you wish...but before you do...please ask if your comments add to an intelligent furthering of this discussion, or are simply an excuse to bash somebody.

We are allegedly adults here. I'd suggest we begin acting like it.

[Guest]

Richard: Your post contained the ringing thunder of the nail being struck directly on the preverbal head!

David: I am not angry, hate filled, or even mildly upset. I thought Brad was funny. I poked more fun at him. It was a very, very, silly thing to come here beating his chest and throwing down a challenge that he cant back up.

I never called YOU a hack or a monkey. Not everyone is talking about YOU David. :) I said the way Brad is trying to peddle his product he is fostering an environment that is ripe for creating this type of magic hack. Others agreed. I have seen the postings of some of these followers of Brad's in other groups. They sound like this, Ive been doing magic for two months and Im better than all you guys! Brad rocks you stink. I personally think its funny. I also feel kind of bad for them. They obviously love magic and are passionate about it. They are also misguided and unfortunately for them missing out on the good stuff. For the record, there are A LOT of these people on the net recently.

I have found the angry outbursts on this thread extremely amusing. I am not as eloquent as Richard or some of the other posters to this thread. Dont take anything I say to heart, I say none of it with any malice. Im just a bit abrupt and have a tendency toward sarcasm. Because you cant see my grinning mug and hear my jocular inflection this may come out crass and rude on the printed page.

I also dont think I am a better magician that any one. I work for real people, I am only interested in how good they think I am. I could care less what the magic guys think of me. I am a guy from the streets; I do not ride a high horse. I do think Gazzo is 1000 times the magician Brad Christian is. I also think Brad knows it as well and that is why he has been so suddenly quiet.

Best,

Dan-

[John LeBlanc]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Ellusionist wants to sell them secrets, and Brad is not stupid: he understands that copping the image of David Blaine, and the use of fragmented editing, etc., will appeal to the audience of young kids to whom he is trying to sell his products. This is old news to anyone who's been watching how products are designed and sold for the past 100 years.
So, from his point of view he's doing a good job. If I look at what his goal is, I think he's probably doing the right thing to attain his goal. His goal, however, is not in sync with ANYTHING most of us think about magic.
And never the twain shall meet!

Here in this thread there is a very thick sheet of glass that stands between those of us who view magic as an artform, and the Brad Christians and the Brad Christian followers of the world.

That glass has so many spray-painted mottos, phrases, essays, and epithets on both sides, it's hardly likely either will be able to see the other side with enough clarity to even get a good one-finger salute through to the other side, let alone a valid point. (Granted our side has more valid points than the other. There's my required one-finger salute.)

If that were not the case, it would not continue.

Sad, really.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX

[Guest]

yeah, I've been trying to say what David said...

though he said it in a more constructive way...

plus you guys seem to know him....

oh, David, John was talking about e.com user JWBB01, not me (obop).

[Guest]

Originally posted by Matthew Feild: Most people seeking magic instruction are the same types who collect comic books, and the idea of attracting women is certainly an effective advertising ploy.

Mr. Feild,

I do have alot of respect for you but remarks like this is simply disprespectful and wrong. No i dont read or collect comic books, im no Antonio Sabato Jr. but i do have girl friends, and im not a fat over weight middle aged pervert. Im 22yrs. old and im a Rutgers student. I have been intrested in magic for a long time but the few products that i bought were very disapointing until i found ellusionist.

Not only is the instructional teaching of how to perform MAGIC great but the forums are second to non. Before the ellusionist forums i had no clue where to go for other products but in the forums people tell you where to go and make various suggestions about what to buy. I am now an educated consumer; lay people that dont have any history of knowing a magician have no clue on how to get into the art. Genii has been aroud forever but you know what i have never heard of it until ellusionist. Ellusionist got me to a proficent level very quickly and now im very much into the art.

Many of the magicans at genii have probably had the benifit of mentors and such. I never knew about the various magic clubs until i got into magic through ellusionist. I have no plans on becoming a professional but whats wrong with entertaining your friends. Magic is also a ice breaker its just a fun thing to do and yes i have found that girls do like it and it gets laughs out of them but magic is not going to turn a total looser with no game into a pimp and i dont think its even implied in any advertisement. If any thing it almost says the opposite, it shows Brad just walking up to people if you are terrible shy you would know you cant do that and will think to your self "i cant do that".

With the intellectual property issue i really have nothing more to add other then to say - if the law allows what Brad is doing and Brad cannot be sued then maybe its ok and maybe you should put your own video out. After all you dont like Brads style you could do your own, make sure you have the credits right, and you would have the most reconized magic magazine behind you.

Raymond Pinner

[John LeBlanc]

[David Mitchell]

Sigh... why do I keep writing. (most likely because I keep reading).

One thing I have been thinking about a lot these past few days. Now I know when I say this, a lot of fingers will suddenly be pointed back at me, (including a few light-hearted one-finger salutes), but really, think about it for a while.

First of all, most (99.9%) of the people here, have an issue with what has happened, what is happening and it's effect (presumed or fact) on peoples attitudes to magic. However, in all the "I'm holier than thou" postings, I have not seen one posting, attempting to educate people here about what they are so upset about. Yes, some of you will say it's not your job, and you would be correct. I could also then say to you, that since you aren't going to help and be part of the solution, does that make you part of the problem? Does you (anyone), not making an attempt to educate a person, as to the proper titles, histories and such of these effects, etc, give you the right to constantly berate, belittle, and place yourselves above someone else? We all know that certain people hold their standards in higher regard than others, nothing wrong with that, except that you are trying to enforce something on someone, when trying to educate might be easier, and at the same time, an eye opener.

I know for a fact, a helpful hand, gets my attention, and holds it, much longer, than someone bitching at me all the time. You want my attention, talk to me nicely, and I am sure that this might work with a lot of other people out there. (Then again, for some it won't, there are always those ones out there who will never listen)

But like I said, if it's not your job to educate, to teach, to pass on this knowledge, then who's job is it? I am 100% sure that in these past 117 posts, that if there was some well thought out (and there have been), replies, that left out Morals & Ethics (capitalised on purpose), and instead said, here is what happens when something isn't done properly, this is what happens when you learn something wrong, and here are the consequences.... that a lot of this, might have been avoided.

All the people here that have poured their heart, and soul, into typing some of these replies, could have instead educated people, but instead chose to say over and over and over again, "I am right, you are wrong".

Ethics, Morals, and the like, are highly personal. There are many magicians who feel strongly about these things, and there are many who sit on the fence. Do you want to know why this thread has gone mostly now-where? It's because everyone is feeling that they are being attacked, even if something isn't even directed at them.

If you want me to learn, and to grow as a magician, then go ahead and teach, because I know that there are people out there who will listen. But until you can teach a person something, and not make them feel like dirt in the process, no-one is going to listen. It's human nature.

Secondly (if you've read this far, thank you), why on earth hasn't anyone produced, written, created, a MAGIC BOOK, that has a lot of this information. Who's who, who created what moves, popular effects/props. I'm not sure if many of you have noticed, but in my 10+ years with magic, this knowledge really isn't readily available. If we are going to make information this secretive, then should everyone be so suprised that these things occur? In all my travels to the magic store, on the net, I've never seen anything like this, does one exist? Some of us can't afford to spend money on rare books, or weeks researching something that won't win us a Nobel prize. Honestly.. does it have to be this hard.

Anyways.. I've rambled on again, long enough. If you're going to be upset with me, be nice about it, remember, it does go a long way.

Have a good one. (And I have enjoyed reading/debating with a lot of you. It's, interesting.)

David.

[Guest]

I swore I wasn't going to post any more on this, but I do want to make one more calm reply to a comment David made in his last post. Then I really am done.

David wrote:

First of all, most (99.9%) of the people here, have an issue with what has happened, what is happening and it's effect (presumed or fact) on peoples attitudes to magic. However, in all the "I'm holier than thou" postings, I have not seen one posting, attempting to educate people here about what they are so upset about.

Please go re-read most of my posts in this thread. Time and again through my first few posts, and even through to the last, with the possible exception of a couple exasperated tangential posts, I went out of my way to explain, as clearly as I could, what I'm upset about, why I'm upset about it, and what the possible solutions to it could be.

As for the more specific education such as credits, history, etc. that you mention, others here have posted specific references on at least one effect (what Brad misnamed as "Two Card Monte"), and I am more than happy to teach/share with anybody who's willing to learn to the extent that I can.

All they have to do is the simple act of asking.

Most of us here don't mind teaching and sharing, as long as we know we're teaching to eager, willing students who want to learn and will listen.

To put it another way, as the ancient Chinese proverb says, "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear."

Best wishes, and signing off on this thread for good,
Andy

[John LeBlanc]

Originally posted by David Mitchell:
Sigh... why do I keep writing. (most likely because I keep reading).

Welcome to the club. This thread is bordering on OCD for me. <g>

Secondly (if you've read this far, thank you), why on earth hasn't anyone produced, written, created, a MAGIC BOOK, that has a lot of this information. Who's who, who created what moves, popular effects/props. I'm not sure if many of you have noticed, but in my 10+ years with magic, this knowledge really isn't readily available. If we are going to make information this secretive, then should everyone be so suprised that these things occur? In all my travels to the magic store, on the net, I've never seen anything like this, does one exist? Some of us can't afford to spend money on rare books, or weeks researching something that won't win us a Nobel prize. Honestly.. does it have to be this hard.

Hello? Ever hear of the Internet? It's this wonderful invention of Al Gore (maybe not) that allows communication between two people who don't necessarily have to like one another, see one another, or bother to grab pen and paper and (for heaven sakes) handwrite a note to one another.

Instead, it allows one to gain instant access to knowledgable people who would not hesitate to provide provinance of an idea, if one exists.

The Genii Forum, for starters, puts you right in the middle of a braintrust that couldn't possibly be pulled together between the lids of a book.

Email. It's easier to list those for whom an email address cannot be found than vice versa. Approach any of the luminaries of magic in a respectful manner, and you may be surprised at what you get in return.

Last resort? Write to your favorite magic magazine and ask to have placed a letter to the editor.

This is the year 2003. There is absolutely no justification for the excuse "I didn't know how to find who invented X."

I swear this is my last post in this thread.

No, really, I mean it.

Stop laughing.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX