JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

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Larry Horayne
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JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Larry Horayne » March 3rd, 2003, 4:37 pm

P&T's BULL***T, exposes John Edward's Talking To The Dead, on Showtime,Thursday, 10-10:30 EST...they do an incredible hatchet job on this idiot.

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Dustin Stinett
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Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Dustin Stinett » March 3rd, 2003, 5:49 pm

Sandy,

I moved this over here to "Buzz" as it really didn't belong in "Link Watch." I also deleted the duplicate posting - I hope you don't mind.

As for this show itself, it should be pointed out that this is probably a repeat of the first show of this series. It is a good show if you can handle wading through Penn's bombastic commentary. As we have already covered THIS ground (the language) I would appreciate it if everyone refrains from commenting again. Just do a search and find the original thread.

Thanks,
Dustin
Banana #3

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Ben Harris
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Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Ben Harris » March 3rd, 2003, 8:40 pm

South Park's demolition job was lucid. Loved it.
Very "Douglas Adams" like in a way.

Cheers

Ben
Creator of the famous "Floating Match On Card" illusion.
WOWBOUND.COM - INSTANT DOWNLOADS

Guest

Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Guest » March 4th, 2003, 1:01 am

Trouble is too many of you have a magicians mentality,(tricks,secrets,M.O's)should know hammer jobs on Edward won't hurt him,
satires will only help him. Far from an idiot, he will continue to further his career, because he understands less is more, and enables his audience to see the possible-possible. Think about it. No tables to levitate, no ectoplasm to create...There is nothing to grab/expose. Those who complain that Edward's readings seem too vague, don't understand, more subtle phenomena is more compelling and convincing. Very telling one time on Edward's show, after giving a reading to a family, afterwards one skepical family member,after receiving (perceived) very accurate/precise information, said, "I'll have to think if I can really accept this...the reading was just TOO accurate, too intimate..."

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Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Guest » March 4th, 2003, 1:01 am

Trouble is too many of you have a magicians mentality,(tricks,secrets,M.O's)should know hammer jobs on Edward won't hurt him,
satires will only help him. Far from an idiot, he will continue to further his career, because he understands less is more, and enables his audience to see the possible-possible. Think about it. No tables to levitate, no ectoplasm to create...There is nothing to grab/expose. Those who complain that Edward's readings seem too vague, don't understand, more subtle phenomena is more compelling and convincing. Very telling one time on Edward's show, after giving a reading to a family, afterwards one skepical family member,after receiving (perceived) very accurate/precise information, said, "I'll have to think if I can really accept this...the reading was just TOO accurate, too intimate..."

Guest

Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Guest » March 4th, 2003, 4:42 am

What would we think if John Edward would start exposing magic tricks? I just have this feeling that while magicians are more than happy to expose these cold readers etc. We attack against anyone exposing our little secrets. I do understand that it is not as black and white as I make it sound but I wish we would leave these guys alone. There are other people there who can expose them if it's necessary.

Just a thought.

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Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby John McDonald » March 4th, 2003, 9:07 am

Most people know that magicians use magic. Yet cold readers claim to do something they cannot do and exploit peoples fears and anxieties. Magic is for entertainment not exploitation.
Best John

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Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Guest » March 4th, 2003, 11:34 am

Re: What if Edward began exposing magician's secrets? Back in 1931 Julien Proskauer and John Mulholland, started an exposure campaign against mentalists, astrologers and others.
The mentalists began fighting fire with fire, by
threatening exposure of the secrets of any magician's effects who threatened their livelyhood. After some exposures and continued threats, Proskauer and Mulholland backed off.
An object lesson for those who risk, "Troubling
the own house".(Proverbs)

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Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Guest » March 4th, 2003, 1:00 pm

Charlatan's have a secret--they are fakes and pretenders. To expose them, one only has to show that they are using deceit to accomplish their feats.

Magicians have no such secret. Everyone knows we are fakes. Few people have much interest in the arcane methods we use. In the preface to Our Magic, Maskelyne and Devant express the thought the exposure of magic methods would even help create interest and respect for magic.

I believe that it was Eric Severied who once said that "there are two kinds of people in the world, people that can be had, and suckers. The only difference is that everyone can be had, but a sucker will bet you $50 he can't. Magicians are around to remind us we can all be had, so that we don't become suckers."

On the other hand, you can't wise up a chump.

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Keith Raygor
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Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Keith Raygor » March 5th, 2003, 7:23 am

That's about as well-put as anything I've read on this topic.
www.KeithTheMagician.com
www.TheMusicalMindreader.com

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Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Guest » March 7th, 2003, 5:58 pm

Hmmm... John & Diego both have some valid points (as does Whit) on the issue. However, what's been forgotten, misplaced, ignored or is simply being removed from the historical archieves of magic, is the fact that most mentalist up into our current era NEVER CALLED THEMSELVES SUCH and used the storefront Reading Parlor, Mail Order, etc. as a way to "suppliment their income" (you can double check with Bob Cassidy, the Nelson manuscripts, Docc Hilford and a small plethora of others on this... I think I'm right though... I even believe it's mentioned in the Larsen book... and he was a noted Lawyer)

Cassidy points it out in at least one of his manuscripts, the fact the the majority of Mentalists billed and promoted themselves as "the real thing" e.g. Trance Channels, Clairvoyants, and Mystic Swami's of the east for decades! Some did the "dum con-artist psychic" thing in magic shows for the sake of PR for both, the magician and the "medium" who both split income off the back room operations...

Corrinda promoted the fact that becoming proficient Reader was the pentacle of every Mentalists career... the icing on the cake... ALL YOU EVER NEEDED TO KNOW. Blair Robertson, Richard Webster and others point out that there is absolutely no reason for a mentalist to ever be broke because we can walk into a coffee house, do a few Readings and leave.

Hmmm... magicians don't have that advantage, do they? They must wait on agents and event planners, etc. and hustle their butts off to get the jobs. "Psychics"/Readers (that are just fair, let alone those that are exceptional) seem to catch on like wildfire when it comes to referrals.

Bottom line is, 95% of the "Shut-Eye" world has no idea about profiles, billet work or all the other "excuses" the magic community uses to explain away what they do. Of those that are aware, few use said technology and do REadings not just to suppliment their income, but to honestly help guide folks in ways that are corrective vs. damaging. The small percentage that is left over -- the Real Con Artists, etc. tend to target key sectors of the communities they prey upon. Not only are they loathed by those of us in the magician's world but by those honest folks in the shut-eye industry who willingly work together to expose such charlatans in their own way.... sometimes through a very mysterious "rite of banishing" (the guilty party in question, just seems to vanish... especially in desert and swampy areas or in around noted Vodoo communities like New Orleans... just look at the missing person's lists in these areas if you doubt what I'm saying.)

I've always held to a middle ground on this issue; seen far too many things to doubt it 100% but also refuse to take things on "blind faith", always investigating. The reality is, those that wish to believe will... you cannot change that!

On the other hand, we can "educate" folks but we must take a much gentler approach than some wish to do. To blast them all with an Antheists white wash that says "It's all bunk and you're nuts if you believe in anything INCLUDING GOD..." is wrong, immoral, and in my opinion UNPROFESSIONAL! It reveals total contempt and disrespect for our fellow being and the things they hold value to. For some folks, that's all they have and we have no right to take that from them. That's been my grip since day one, when it came to this issue.

Now, in regards to Edwards... He's using the exact formula Houdini said would stump us all... he has nothing but his talk and perception. Any two-bit lawyer can poke holes into a presentation no matter who says what. There is no way to prove JE is a fraud... there's no way to prove he's legit either... at least, not for now. Either way, we are guilty of Assuming something and we all know what that means.

That's as nice a way I can put it. Those that know me know where I stand.

Guest

Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Guest » March 7th, 2003, 9:40 pm

I'm not sure "not called themselves such" is applied to mentalists today or previous generations. "Such" meaning, "real". I don't know how you qualify "most", but many proclaimed themselves to be real at whatever they billed themselves as, but still used disclaimers to avoid legal problems and confrontations. The lines were/are still blurred. Many forget that the most successful mentalists 2 generations ago, Alexander, Raboid, Mel-Roy, etc., did complete illusion shows, then did their Q&A act, without skipping a beat...it is all part of the show, and the audience members took it where they wanted to.
A high profile satanic priest once told me, "You have to be convincing to those who believe, and mystifying and entertaining to those who don't."
I know a very smart woman who did pre-show work for a mentalist, and had a view in and from the inside, BUT, holds that John Edward could be regarded as credible. Her: "YOUR problem is that I
have faith, and you don't!" (So there!)

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Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Guest » March 8th, 2003, 7:01 am

Diego...

I'm not sure what you mean by "having faith" let alone the charge that "I don't have it..." ???

My belief is based on my experiences. I fully admit that I do not have "Blind Faith" nor do I support the supposition that "Ignorance is Bliss"... if that were the case we wouldn't be heading to war right now... (take that as you may... ;) )

I've very much a "Realist"... in other words, I want some sense of proof behind the manifestations before I lend to a person greater benefit of the doubt than I generally allow. In the case of John Edward, my experiences (directly) with the man tell me that there is much more to the picture than some are allowing. I'm not saying he's on the up and up... nor am I saying he's a dirty rotten scoundrel. I am saying that "the jury is out" and I give him far more room for credability than I do Sylvia Brown (whom I've also had sessions with) and VonBragg (that's not a type-O) or George Armsrong or (most especially so) the Pet Psychotic.

I have no problems with a person's faith. I do have major problems when that "faith" is based on what they have been trained and conditioned to belief vs. learnt and experiential testimony. In other words, I loathe and detest Dogma and any mode teaching that encourages total supplication simply because this or that priest says such... sorry, last I checked that was one of the primary warning signs of a potentially dangerous cult.

As to this "High Ranking Satanist"... well, I had lunch with Anton LeVey one day while visiting my friends at the Sorcerer's Shop in West Hollywood... does that count?

My involvement in the Pagan/New Age community is well marked, so let's not go down that road and leave things where they lay (too many people get tied up in knots when you move into a theology and religious history "discussion" on a magician's forum ;) )

I believe we're on the same course of thought Diego... but then, I'm making room for the language limitations the printed word causes.

Later!

Chris Aguilar
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Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Chris Aguilar » March 8th, 2003, 10:57 am

Remember when Craig bragged about predicting the events of September 11th?

http://www.newsreview.com/issues/reno/2 ... ifteen.asp

I hear that you predicted the World Trade Center tragedy somewhat correctly.

Yes. Me and about five other psychics I'm associated with all had the same premonition of the ground moving, of seeing smoke and fire in the sky and of it being more of a national tragedy. We jumped to conclusions, thinking it would be a volcano or something like that. In the prediction, I stated it would be three to four weeks after that interview [with Bob Garrison] on KBZZ. It was almost four weeks to the hour.
Hm, predicting that the "ground will move" and there will be "fire and smoke" covers a lot of extremely general ground does it not.

What are the odds that those conditions would be met worldwide in any given span of a month?

Pretty safe bet I would think. :)

I personally find it quite abhorent when people choose to take advantage of such tragedy for blatant self promotion.

Craig was then asked for another prediction pertaining to the remainder of that year.
That's creepy. Any other predictions you can tell us about?

That's hard to clarify. In the immediate future, I am not seeing a whole lot of major calamities in this area. I do believe that before the year is out, we will see retaliation [for the bombings in Afghanistan]. I think the West Coast will get hit pretty hard. When I say "West Coast," I mean San Francisco.
Which came and and went without event. San Francisco (and the west coast) is still ok, even tho' craigs pyschic abilities told him otherwise. :)

I seems if you're into precognition, you can throw out many many vague (and sometimes not so vague) predictions and then crow when you get one hit whilst conveniently forgetting all the misses.

Not too dissimiliar to what JE does IMHO. :)

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Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Guest » March 8th, 2003, 1:40 pm

The arrogance by which you attempt to chide me Wert simply supports how so many in magic don't listen or comprehind what is said about Divination vs. Prophecy... they are not and never have been the same and yet people like you, love to make it seem such. You accuse "US" of "double talk" when you guys seem the masters of it... all for the sake of personal ego vs. anything remotely redemptive for human kind.

Bottom line is, just because YOU or any other skeptic can use the excuses of generality, coencidence, etc.to explain away events and happenstance (talk about weak and fickle foundations) and just because you've never accepted the possability that anyone (even you) could have a precognitive momment... well, that don't mean you're right. It means you have a narrow minded and rather limited opinion of what's supposedly what, and the feeling that you also have the right to shove that philosophy into the face of anyone that professes faith or belief in anything contrary, just so you can attempt to insult them, make them feel like (or look like) fools, etc.

Sorry, just because you know a method doesn't mean you know the magick!

Anything can be explained away, but it Readings, etc. are such tripe, why were said practices the foundation to key human sciences like Psychology and it's various twisted kindred? Chemistry? Math? Communications on the whole?

You've yet to LISTEN to what I've said in any of my articles, posts or books concerning this topic. I find it rather peculiar how Rick Maue, Banachek and others understand what I'm saying and we don't have "a problem" and you can't. I find it strange how so many know that I'm all for exposing and destroying the genuine cons that are out there... I'm on the side of the skeptic's society like you can't believe, and yet you choose to pick at scabs in the attempt to discredit something that can't be discredited.

I do not and have never claimed to be perfectly gifted in such things... no one does (well, except the hind-sight "prophecies" attributed various "sacred tomes") I also stress that I am not a prophet, nor do I claim to be "Psychic" as you are implying the term... "Psychic" from the Jungian/Cayce perspectives, maybe (there is a difference...)

Now, this thread was moving along fairly well (for this kind of thread) until you elected yourself worth of lighting the match to a flame war... a game I will not play. You have your opinions on things, I have mine. But don't ever try to start this kind of battle with me again. It's childish and it is not needed. Contrary to percieved belief of folks akin to your apparent way of thinking, the first requirment for being involved in magic isn't disbelief in anything outside of science and human potential or to don the mantel of the Atheist.

So please Sir, restrain yourself from further childish acts of intentional antagonism.

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Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Guest » March 8th, 2003, 4:12 pm

Some terse reacting going on here...The views of the person "who has faith and you don't" was what she said to the mentalist she had worked with, it wasn't directed to anyone "out there", except those who wanted to catch it. One does not have to be blind, to have faith...I found so-called skeptics & atheists often more arrogantly, stridently, closed-minded, than many so-called true believers. Note I never said anything, pro or con about Edward,(where I stand, and 90 cents, will get you a bus token)my point: Magicians huffing and puffing won't stop him, even those making money knocking him KNOW that! It WAS Anton LaVey that I was quoting...I was able to enjoy an all-night conversation with him, a few months before he died in 1997. He was both amused and perturbed by those who had made a living knocking him...the anti-cult&Christian knockers "warned" of the "soul killing, blood-sacrificing" evil he was, while rival satanists shouted, "LaVey is just a show, WE are the TRUE satanists, follow us!" The day Edward's show went to syndication, a skeptic friend called me and with resignation said, "Maskelyne, Houdini, Mulholland, Proskauer, Randi, P&T...it doesn't matter, does it?" End of sermon.

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Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Chris Aguilar » March 8th, 2003, 7:00 pm

The arrogance by which you attempt to chide me Wert simply supports how so many in magic don't listen or comprehind what is said about Divination vs. Prophecy...
Hm, I think it better to define arrogance as using a horrible tragedy for blatant self promotion.

And of course, when someone hits you with valid points that undermine your credibility, you fall back on the tired old saw of Well you just dont understand what Im saying!. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

...they are not and never have been the same and yet people like you, love to make it seem such.
People like Me?

Nice bit of bluster and stereotype youve got going there Craig.

You accuse "US" of "double talk" when you guys seem the masters of it...
Ah the stereotypes come fast and hard now its US Vs. the dreaded you guys. :rolleyes:

all for the sake of personal ego vs. anything remotely redemptive for human kind.
Hm, so by simply questioning your credibility and asking for hard data as to your abilities, one is ascribed "egotistic" motives? :rolleyes:

Bottom line is, just because YOU or any other skeptic can use the excuses of generality, coencidence, etc.to explain away events and happenstance (talk about weak and fickle foundations) and just because you've never accepted the possability that anyone (even you) could have a precognitive momment...
Please tell me where I every stated that precognition wasnt a possibility.

Nice strawman argument youre building there Craig. Putting words in the mouths of your detractors is one way to actually hide that you've got no facts to back up your assertions.

well, that don't mean you're right.
Hm, do the words in my personal opinion mean anything to you Craig?

Please point out where I ever claimed to be right about his issue.

It means you have a narrow minded and rather limited opinion of what's supposedly what,
Ah, some nice ad-hominin. Good if you dont have any valid or logical points to make I assume. :(

and the feeling that you also have the right to shove that philosophy into the face of anyone that professes faith or belief in anything contrary,.
Um, so tell me Craig, What exactly are my beliefs? I never told them to you, so I guess its ok for you to just make that bit up eh?

just so you can attempt to insult them, make them feel like (or look like) fools, etc.
Nope. When I present my opinion, I state as such.

Everything else in my original post was factual. Your own words. If not, please tell me where I factually failed to present the facts about your boasting of predicting the events of 9/11.

Sorry, just because you know a method doesn't mean you know the magick!
Clich #52. Did I ever make this claim? Did I ever say specifically Craig works this way?

Nope.

I merely pointed out that some (and not necessarily you Craig) make precognitive claims in a manner very similar to how Edward seem to work.

Anything can be explained away, but it Readings, etc. are such tripe, why were said practices the foundation to key human sciences like Psychology and it's various twisted kindred? Chemistry? Math? Communications on the whole?
Mathematics and chemistry wouldnt exist without having readings as their antecedents?

Ohhh Kay. :rolleyes:

You've yet to LISTEN to what I've said in any of my articles, posts or books concerning this topic. I find it rather peculiar how Rick Maue, Banachek and others understand what I'm saying and we don't have "a problem" and you can't.
Hey, there it is again. Rather than respond to a valid point with logic, simply claim the person disagreeing with you doesnt listen. Bleh.

And you regale us with yet another logical fallacy.

Blatant appeal to authority.

I couldnt give two hoots what banachek and Maue think. It still doesnt change the simple fact that you used a horrible tragedy to promote yourself.

I find it strange how so many know that I'm all for exposing and destroying the genuine cons that are out there...
Oh please, weve heard it all before.

You want to be seen as a crusader against fakes and cons whilst conveniently setting yourself up as a true reader, precognitive talent, whatever.

Everyone who doesnt agree with you is a so called skeptic, blah blah blah.

I'm on the side of the skeptic's society like you can't believe.
Riiiighttt

and yet you choose to pick at scabs in the attempt to discredit something that can't be discredited.
Nope. I simply presented some factual information showing that you claimed to have predicted 9/11 in fairly obvious attempt at self promotion of your precognitive skills.

I then pointed out that you made a rather specific prediction that turned out to be totally bogus.

I do not and have never claimed to be perfectly gifted in such things...
Hm, whether you claim to be perfectly gifted is mere semantics. You said you had the gift and you failed badly on your published premonition. Those are the facts.

It also doesnt change the fact that you used a horrible tragedy to promote yourself. (even giving a contact phone # after the fact!)

I also stress that I am not a prophet, nor do I claim to be "Psychic" as you are implying the term... "Psychic" from the Jungian/Cayce perspectives, maybe (there is a difference...)
More semantics. Often the refuge of someone lacking a valid point or wanting to change the subject.

Fact is, you claimed in print that you could predict the future *and had in fact done so successfully in the past*. Whats so wrong with asking you to actually prove that assertion?

Now, this thread was moving along fairly well (for this kind of thread) until you elected yourself worth of lighting the match to a flame war...
Ah, mean old Wert is now starting a flame war just because he had the temerity to question the credibility of someone making a paranormal claim.

a game I will not play.
You seem to be playing it now. :)

You have your opinions on things, I have mine.
Agreed and agreed. But Im not the one making any claims here. You are. And youre the one blustering and spinning trying to refrain from actually answering any of them in a logical or rational way.

But don't ever try to start this kind of battle with me again.
Hm, what battle? I present some facts and clearly label those portions of my text that are opinion and you say thats a battle? Ho Hum

It's childish and it is not needed.
More ad-hominen. Once again, the refuge of those who want to denigrate with name calling rather than logic.

Contrary to perceived belief of folks akin to your apparent way of thinking,
Cool. More stereotyping. Now its folks akin to my apparent way of thinking.

the first requirement for being involved in magic isn't disbelief in anything outside of science and human potential or to don the mantel of the Atheist.
And how do you know Im an atheist. Guessing and assuming on your part Id wager. :)

Nice way to disparage those who disagree with you as disbelieving in anything outside of science and human potential.

Youve said as much before.
Unlike the average skeptic however, I leave room in my life to believe and to see the impossible. Like true Scientific Research, I allow room for the unknown factor... something few (if any)in the magic/skeptics cult will ever do.
Nice. Anyone of those false skeptics who dont credulously believe as you do are referred to as a cult. *sigh*

So please Sir, restrain yourself from further childish acts of intentional antagonism.
Sorry, Ill present the facts and my opinions as I see fit.

For those wanting to see a clinical dissection of Craig and his paranormal claims, please see this previous thread from some months ago. Its amusing how history repeats itself. He didnt even attempt to answer the question about his exploitation of 9/11 in that thread. Much as he fails to do so now. :rolleyes:

http://geniimagazine.com/forum/cgi-bin/ ... =000045;p=

Richard and Jon can delete, close, or do whatever they want to this thread.

But the wishes of Craig Browning will be cheerfully ignored. :)

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Dustin Stinett
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Re: JOHN EDWARD EXPOSED

Postby Dustin Stinett » March 8th, 2003, 9:01 pm

Richard and Jon don't have to do anything: I will. I'm locking this thread only for prophylactic reasons: My crystal ball is telling me that it will get out of hand if I don't.

Dustin


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