Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

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Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 11th, 2006, 7:58 am

I am researching the proper credit for the move known as Shape Shifter.

I have always thought this was Marc DeSouzas but I have recently heard that it might have originated somewhere else.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Thank you.

Guest

Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 11th, 2006, 8:12 am

My Opinion.

Oscar Munoz has been widely known for creating this move, and showing it to Marc. Apparently during a meal at a restaurant, Marc said show me something, and Oscar showed him a version of the SS that can be done standing up for a larger group of people. Marc claims that he made it better by bringing it down to waist level. Oscar states that he was already doing it that way, but it would have been silly to show it to a group of people in that manner, since only the people closest to the front would have been able to see the move.

Who you beleive is entirely up to you, but I personally lean towards Oscar's version of the story. It doesn't make sense that a person would have only thought about doing it at eye level and not experimented with performing it at waist level.

But then again, this is my opinion.

David.

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Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 11th, 2006, 10:14 am

There's never been any question that the move belongs to Oscar: DeSouza has given him credit. The only question is whether someone has the right to rename a sleight and credit themselves because they're doing it with their hands at waist level rather than at chest level. Seems like a stretch to me. Oscar is a professional magician who uses the sleight and, for him, if he did it at waist level no one would be able to see it. Professionals who work for groups keep their hands up in the air so everyone can see.
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Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 11th, 2006, 11:56 am

I'm a very close friend of Oscar Muoz. When I was lecturing in McAllen, TX a couple of years ago, we went out to dinner afterwards, and Oscar told me the whole story. He was really pissed off at DeSouza for appropriating the move, and it was only after he had been teaching it without Oscar's permission, that Oscar confronted him and demanded that he credit him for it.

Marc really didn't have much choice.

Guest

Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 11th, 2006, 8:11 pm

The nice thing about performing magic exclusively for a lay audience ...
it's only necessary to execute the move well - you don't have to call it anything.

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Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Ian Richards » May 12th, 2006, 7:21 am

I believe that Oscar Munoz refers to his move as the Pirouette Change.

Guest

Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 12th, 2006, 7:32 am

Hi All,

I don't know why this issue keeps coming up, but it does. I have always given full credit to Oscar for the origination of his Pirouete move. Oscar and I discussed this again at FFFF two weeks ago and he knows what I have done with his concept, acknowledges that there is a difference in the moves and that "he's over it" and we are still friends.

Bill is absolutely right about when and where Oscar showed it to me. The rest, he is dead wrong about. I asked Oscar if I could work with the move as I felt the handling was a bit awkward. He enthusiasically said yes. I did and in a matter of weeks came up with my Shapeshifter move. I called Oscar, described the move and he liked it. He had not come up with anything resembling my handling prior to that moment. He told me so himself. He specifically said that he came up with his handling as he was a stand-up performer, but felt my handling was good for the close-up worker. He also liked the way I had cleaned up getting in and out of the move.

Fast forward several months. I met up wth Steve Beam at a convention and showed him Shapeshifter. He loved it and asked to have it for the cover of the next issue of Trapdoor. I agreed, but explained the lineage and that I felt Oscar's original move should appear as well. Steve agreed. I called Oscar the day I got back from the convention and asked if he would agree to having both of ours published. He was absoultely thrilled! Both were published and that was that...or so I thought.

Response to the move was great. Everywhere I went, someone was doing it. Generally, without credit to either Oscar or myself. Allan Ackerman put it on his video series calling it the Beam Change, assuming it was Steve's. Since that time, my name has usually been associated with it, tho Oscar is known as having created the concept. Everytime I have shown it to magicians, I have always credited Oscar with the concept...the concept being his Pirouette Change as published. All of the handling changes and nuances that distinguish the Pirouette Change from the Shapeshifter Change are mine, not Oscar's. They are indeed two different moves and should be thought of as such.

I am sorry that magicians don't always know who to credit for moves. I am sorry that magicians don't always credit others for moves. I can tell you that I make every effort, and usually go above and beyond,to acurately credit others. I am sorry that, despite my efforts, magicians forget that I credit Oscar with the concept. Most performing magicians tend to use Shapeshifter as opposed to Pirouette, which is why I created it in the first place. For most, it is a practical, workable move that produces startling effect. I feel that Shapeshifter has significant differences, as do most performing magicians, but I never would have been able to create it without Oscar kindly sharing his Pirouette Change with me, and consequently the magic world.

I hope this clarifies the matter and we can put it to bed once and for all.

Marc DeSouza

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Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 12th, 2006, 7:54 am

Well, I disagree that the moves are different "and should be thought of as such."
I also don't think they should have different titles because that perpetuates the idea that they're different sleights.
The sleight is the same: a back-to-back double card pivots between two fingers when snapped off the fingers of the other hand.
Adapting the change by holding your hands at waist level rather than at chest level does not make it a different sleight.
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Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 12th, 2006, 1:34 pm

Hi Richard (et al),

I must disagree with you on several counts concerning your comments. First, concrning this validity and use of the move at waist level vs. chest height, I feel the waist level is far more consistent with most card handling. Most magicians agree, as I have never seen another magician, other than Oscar, do it at chest height... and I've seen a lot of magicians doing Shapeshifter.

Second, concerning the issue of a back to back double card pivoting over being the same sleight, you could say the same for the Snap Over Change and all of it's variants.

Most importantly, you feel that all I have done is to bring it from chest level to waist level. I have also added a comfortable and logical way of getting into and out of the move. Please compare that with Oscar's original version. His version was very different and not nearly as smooth..it had no flow. By bringing the move down, a lot of the original problems were solved. The finger placements are also different in both versions.

Marc DeSouza

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Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 12th, 2006, 1:39 pm

Oh by the way, in deference to Bill Palmer. Oscar never indicated that he was pissed off at my appropriating the move and he never confronted me in anyway concerning crediting. To do so would have been very wrong as he KNEW that I had always given him credit as the originator of the concept...from the publication in Trapdoor, through the publication in my lecture notes, in teaching it in my lectures, in it's publication in DeSouza's DeCeptions and in the DVD. And no, I did not have a choice in not crediting him for the concept because it was the right thing to do.

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Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 12th, 2006, 3:56 pm

I think Oscar's point of view is the same as mine: the moves are almost identical, with the hands held at different heights. I don't care if you've improved Oscar's move--even if you have, it's still Oscar's move.
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Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 12th, 2006, 10:21 pm

Marc:

Maybe he didn't indicate that to you, but he certainly did to me. Oscar is strange about that. There are several things of his that are being manufactured by a major "white hat" magic dealer without any kind of credit to him or any payment. He isn't happy about that, either.

But he won't say anything to him about it. Until he says something directly to him, I'm not going to say anything either.

Besides, think about this. If Oscar did the move at waist level, he couldn't see it! ;)

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Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Stan Willis » May 13th, 2006, 6:26 am

I think interested parties would like to know where does In Lieu of the Thru-The-Fist Change by Ed Marlo (At The Table-Jon Racherbaumer page 157) fit into this waist level claim.......??

Guest

Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 14th, 2006, 10:09 am

Funny side note to this story....
I'm friends with Marc, and have met Oscar. I think they're both great guys and performers.

A few years ago at a MAES convention in Philly, both were in attendance. One of the highlights was Oscar's beautiful performance and explanation of the "McLintock Twist" by Reed McLintock. Which is pretty much the "Asher Twist" by Lee Asher, only instead of doing it at waist lever for close-up, it is brought to chest height to do for parlor or stage. It seems a funny way that this whole story seems to have come full circle.

At last year's WMS, I had to correct a young card punk who called it the David Blaine change, simply because he did in on his special. I like the move, but ever since then, it's all over the place and I've replaced it with a version of Bernard Bilis' "Electric Double Lift" with 2 cards back to back. I don't think I've seen anyone else use it as a color change, so for the record; it is now called the Pepka Change.
NYAHHHH :D

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Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 14th, 2006, 2:20 pm

Pepka:

Is not the handling for the McClintock Twist significantly different from the Asher Twist, while the Shapeshifter is significantly similar to it's progenitor, the Pirouette Change?

I do see your point in terms of Lee having come up with the idea and excellent handling, similarly to Oscar's. But there had to be some serious handling changes to Lee's to do it at chest level.

Granted that it was Steve Beam who gave Marc's handling a new name and distinction but there seems to me to be a greater/lesser degree of difference between these two basic concepts.

Since the pricipals have agreed not to disagree, then maybe it's time to give some major kudos here to the inventors, even though they are not writing and asking for them:

All hail Oscar Munoz and Lee Asher for two outstanding and original card moves! :D

Guest

Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 14th, 2006, 3:30 pm

Steve,
I'm sure someone will correct me here, but I believe the McLintock version just about identical other than it's done up at chest level. Granted, I've never bought the video and I think that's the only time I've seen it done, and it was a few years ago. I may be wrong, but that's how I remember it.

Guest

Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 14th, 2006, 4:25 pm

Well, < I > might be wrong but I don't think you can do the same thing chest-high unless you use different motions, with all ten fingers, than those used with Lee's method.

Guest

Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 14th, 2006, 5:30 pm

The Asher and McClintock Twists use different mechanics. The only similarities are the effect and the card that is being secretly turned over (the rearmost from the spectator's view). That secret turnover is accomplished through totally different means.

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Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 14th, 2006, 5:51 pm

The Asher Twist is actually a good move to bring up here because it's based on a sleight of Alex Elmsley's, which is the idea of doing a Half Pass with your left hand while your right hand spreads the cards above it. What makes the Asher Twist truly brilliant is that even though it makes only a small physical change to the Elmsley sleight, the result of this is an improvement so enormous as to render the sleight almost new (though Elmsley should still receive credit as the person who developed the move from which this was developed). With the Asher Twist your right hand REVERSE spreads its cards and what had previously been a rather clumsly and difficult to cover sleight now looks like magic.
This is not the situation at all with Oscar Munoz's change as performed by Marc DeSouza. (And Oscar has always been really annoyed by the entire thing, by the way.)
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Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 14th, 2006, 6:31 pm

Originally posted by Frank Yuen:
The Asher and McClintock Twists use different mechanics. The only similarities are the effect and the card that is being secretly turned over (the rearmost from the spectator's view). That secret turnover is accomplished through totally different means.
I agree with you completely.

In Asher's twist, the work is done by one hand under cover of the other hand doing a reverse spread.

In McClintock's move, the cards start already spread (a pair in each hand) and the move is completed as they are brought together. No reverse spread. The McClintock move uses both hands for cover and for the actual work, while the Asher Twist uses only one hand to effect the turnover under cover of the other hand effecting a reverse spread.

I can't imagine how anyone having seen Reed's video and read Asher's writeup of his Twist could really say that one is just the other brought up to chest level. Now one could say that one inspired the other in final effect, but the mechanics aren't really that similar at all.

Guest

Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 15th, 2006, 3:52 am

OK, so not corrected by one, but four. :p

Guest

Re: Who originated the move known as “Shape Shifter”?

Postby Guest » May 16th, 2006, 7:49 pm

This stuff amuses me greatly. I know that we all want to contribute to the art we love but when it comes down to petty bickering it's a little sad. I think a good deal of people in magic have the "Habit" of appropriating material and taking a credit for it. (I have heard and personally seen Oscar Munoz deliver moves and such as his own ideas at his lecture.) We're human. We err. Sometimes on purpose. Sometimes not.

The card flip move I created a few years ago has been claimed to be created before but everytime I ask them details about handling to see if it's different from mine they never reply. (online stuff doncha know) LEt's face it, if you want something to never be done, put it in print. Eventually someone else will do it and it'll be huge. Such is life.

From time to time I do a variation on the change in question. I like it better, it looks nicer, and the change is faster. Do I credit it to me or myself? Nay, it's just a bloody card move. Getting the facts straight is one thing, seeing whose deck is bigger is silly.

Can't we all just wear a thong?

Bizzaro.


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