Expert at the Card Table with Allan Ackerman

[Guest]

Lets get back to the actual topic.

Has anybody actually bought this yet?

If so, what are your reviews?

[Guest]

[Warning: what follows is the product of a man with a bit of time to kill, a dead cell phone, and nothing else to do but play solitaire or surf GF. What you will read reflects an attempt to be objective, yet strictly due to the need for self-entertainment, also reflects attempts at ironic observation, satire and humor from someone who can barely distinguish a double chin from a double lift. Statement: the above is a basic idea of what this post is about. Any of the below may be changed and there is a chance that this post may not have ever happened.]

2/4/06 An official announcement is made that filming has been completed and that the Ackerman EACT DVD will be on sale in March 2006.

2/6/06 An unofficial announcement is made that filming continues. GF members begin foaming at the mouth.

7/6/06 An official announcement is made that editing is in the finishing stages. EACT fanatics learn about a previously unknown 400+ page edition of EACT. Existence of a competing EACT DVD project is leaked.

7/7/06 An unofficial announcement is made that MM is doing the competing EACT project. This signals (thricely) the end of the world for Joe Pike. Debate begins concerning the originality of MMs EACT DVD project, and concerns are raised that a competitive market may actually mean lower profits for the competitors. Clay Shevlin recalls that the concept of filming/demonstrating all the moves in EACT is over 30 years old and wonders if he should claim title to the original idea.

7/8/06 Forum members begin to take sides as to who is the better card man, Ackerman or James, even though some of them dont know one or the other.

8/15/06 Inquiries resurface regarding the delivery date for the Ackerman EACT DVD. Out of desperation, hungry magi begin circulating ancient clips of Ackerman performing.

11/16/06 Inquiries resurface regarding the delivery date for the Ackerman EACT DVD. A lone magician foams at the mouth 5 weeks later.

2/15/07 Inquiries resurface regarding the delivery date for the Ackerman EACT DVD. An official announcement is made that filming is continuing.

3/23/07 Inquiries resurface regarding the delivery date for the Ackerman EACT DVD. An official announcement is made that things are wrapped up, and that a major announcement will be forthcoming. Foaming of the mouth returns on a limited basis.

3/30/07 Inquiries surface regarding the delivery date for the major announcement re the Ackerman EACT DVD.

4/6/07 An official major announcement is made: something may or may not happen in connection with the Ackerman EACT DVD. Officially, its good PR for the project. Inquiries resurface regarding the delivery date for the Ackerman EACT DVD.

4/11/07 After a plea for patience from a well-known, third-party publisher of magic books, limited foaming of the mouth returns.

4/12/07 Stinett accomplishes a mean feat of misdirection by claiming to be Erdnase, and does not inquire about the delivery date for the Ackerman EACT DVD. Rumors begin that Erdnase sleuths may appear on the Ackerman EACT DVD. One of the sleuths indicates that he won't be a part of the project. Kaufman and Stinett join forces in the misdirection scheme.

5/3/07 An official announcement is made regarding the release of the James EACT DVD.

5/5/07 Joe Pike realizes the world hasnt ended its only gone to the remainder table.

5/6/07 An $11 per DVD market is unofficially announced. Intense debate begins on the merits of video quality in general. No inquiries are made regarding the delivery date for the Ackerman EACT DVD.

5/7/07 Intense debate continues on the merits of video quality in general. No inquiries are made regarding the delivery date for the Ackerman EACT DVD.

Now, pierredan, what part of this thread exactly has gone downhill? :)

CHS

[Guest]

For those that apparently hate a great deal,
The actual SRP for "The Man Who Knows Erdnase" is $99 which makes the price just over $14 per disc, a very fair price in today's magic market place. I am discounting the price because I have a considerable number of sets as part of my deal with MM and I will be moving shortly and would rather not have to move more boxes than necessary. Thus, I am offering them at $80, just under $11.50 per disc. I find it hard to understand why such a great deal has aroused any controversy but if it will make some of you feel better I'll accept $140 per set and give the difference to charity. Based upon the content of the discs that would still be a fair price but I doubt any are likely to pay that amended price.

For the record, MM uses the highest quality cameras and lighting available and compresses the resulting video as little as possible, thus providing the highest quality image obtainable short of HD and since my shoot they have upgraded to HD, so future projects will be of even higher video quality.

No video project is perfect and the budgets available for video production in the magic field don't begin to approach those of a half hour sit-com produced for broadcast. Nevertheless, with a far smaller market from which to recover costs MM is offering 8.7 hours of material plus a nearly 200 page book in PDF format. If that great deal is a source of concern, so be it, one can't please everyone. I am confident that this set of DVDs contains a tremendous amount of information and insight into the material offered by Erdnase 105 years ago. It will take some study and work to make that material useful but the discs contain the fruits of my more than 50 years of experience with the material. If that's not worth your time and money, perhaps stamp collecting would be a better hobby for you.

As for Allan Ackerman and Geno Munari's project, I consider Alan a friend and Geno a cordial acquaintance. I wish them great success with their project. Alan is a talented sleight of hand performer, a knowledgeable magician and a heck of a nice guy. I would, however, point out that Alan did no grow up under Vernon's influence, has never been a professional entertainer--though I hasten to add that he is a charming performer--and perforce his experience is different from mine. He brings a different background and different perspective to whatever analysis he elects to share in the set that he and Geno will offer. I look forward to seeing and considering all he has to offer and I would think that other serious students of the craft would as well. I submit that that is the wisest choice and all the controversy is grossly misplaced.

Wesley James

[Guest]

Magicam,

I knew that my comment would bother some.

Even so, I rarely reply to people who disagree with me online. My goal is not to convince everyone that I'm right, it's just to get my point across.

However, your reply was brilliant.

Thank you for the good laugh.

[Guest]

YO GENO!

Whats going on with the Ackerman EACT DVD Series?

tcb

[Guest]

Nicely put Wes. Now if you could just get Magic Makers to submit a copy to MUM for review...

I'm guessing Geno will.

[Guest]

I have little influence on MM's policy on submitting products for review. I'd be pleased to allow the set to be reviewed but Rob Stiff, head of MM, feels that he has been treated unfairly by some reviewers. In part he is correct, thus I can understand his disinclination to submitting products for review. Still, I have more than once expressed my opinion to him on the subject. Ultimately, since advertising and promotion are his provenance, it will be his call.

Wesley James

[Guest]

Well, I also think that Magicam's post is hilarious and personally, I am going to plump for the Wesley DVD set on Erdnase. To me this seems to be something very special.

Regards,

Paul H

[Guest]

Is MagicMakers O.K. now? Have they stopped ripping people off. Has all been forgiven and it's o.k. to buy from them?

I'm asking these questions because there was some concern among various magicians that MM was ripping people off and should be dealt with accordingly(i.e. not buying from them).

[Guest]

I avoided the entire MM ethicality question by purchasing directly from Mr James.

The DVDs are excellent, production value much better than most, and certainly worth any serious card workers attention. I had never seen Mr james before and therefore was looking forward to seeing this Underground Legend handle a deck of cards...
It was well worth the price of admission.

I will also buy Mr Ackerman's DVDs when they come out...I've met him and know he has amazing chops.

Michael

[Guest]

I avoided the entire MM ethicality question by purchasing directly from Mr James.

I don't know that you did. Think about it.

[NCMarsh]

Re: MM, ethics, and buying from Wesley:

It is a personal decision whether or not to oppose knock-offs and to what extent...For myself, I don't have an issue with purchasing copies from Wesley if the copies are part of his compensation for the shoot

My issue is that I do not want my money to support the growth of Magic Makers...so I will not buy MM products or spend money with dealers who stock their products...buying from a performer who did not pay for the set does not -- in the way that I look at things -- support the company...

others may feel differently (indeed, I do know at least one magician who will has said he will not purchase products from anyone who has had material published by MM)...it's a personal choice based on how you see the situation...

N.

[Dave Egleston]

Watched the first two disks last night

They're fascinating for those of us who are not Erdnase scholars and devotees. Mr. James gives his personal viewpoints on Erdnase and the mystique that surrounds him.

One of my pet peeves with multiple disks such as these is the opening statement on each disk being identical - In this case: There is a guy who identifies himself as Rob Stiff? I guess he's the owner of MM. Same introduction on both disks. Too lazy to introduce each disk individually why waste our time saying the same thing over and over? This is not unique to this line of products. Even the Larry Jennings tapes "THOUGHTS ON CARDS" used the same intro on both tapes.

I apologize to those who've wasted their time responding to my uneducated statement about digital compression earlier in this thread, I did research it and find that I was completely wrong, nothing unusual there.

I bought these disks directly from Mr. James therefore, at least in my mind, paid him and not MM.

Beautiful picture quality by the way.

Still looking forward to the Ackerman/Munari production.

Dave

[Guest]

I don't know that you did. Think about it.

Of course, opinions may vary, but my assumption is that Mr James was "paid" with copies of DVDs to resell as he saw fit; therefore, to my mind, I'm paying Mr James directly- not MagicMakers.
The DVDs are very good and Mr James deserves kudos for his hard work....
Simon Lovell was also entertaining (and he has tremendous chops at cards as well!)

Michael

[Guest]

I think we'll see many more duplicate sales for these sets. With the Royal Road sets (both of which I liked) you had well known book that isn't that challenging technically and one of the hosts was a relative unknown.

With the Expert sets you have well respected long time students of a very complex work offering their insights.

Assuming both sets DO reflect the sensibilities of the hosts, both should be valuable to any serious student.

[Guest]

I was really surprised by some of the negative comments about Wesley James. His record as a magician and his intellect speak for themselves. While I was surprised he aligned himself with Magic Makers I tend to think it may have been to access their production facilities, which is not bad. I have no doubt Wesley will produce a top notch product, not at all like the garbage so frequently released by Stiff.

[Guest]

Concerning the Magic Makers business, Wesley James wrote a posting about his opinion and concerns on The Magic Cafe.
Just scroll down here a bit below center to the bright red posting:
Erdnase DVD set

Denis

[Guest]

Thank you Denis. Wes gets to try to get Rob on the bus and as I thought also gets access to excellent production abilities.

[Guest]

Geno has left the building!

Despite numerous requests for an update on the Ackerman project, still no news more than one month after his last post.

I guess he does not mind that his thread on the Ackerman Erdnase DVD has been hijacked by the competition.

From the reviews Ive read, I dont know if Ill wait for the Ackerman project after all. Wesley James may have more than enough valuable information on Erdnase for me.

[Richard Kaufman]

Geno will put out his DVD set on Erdnase whenever he's ready. No use making a fuss about it. I'm sure it will be well worth waiting for and Allan Ackerman's work will certainly supercede any other DVD versions released earlier.

[Guest]

Richard, this is the second time you jump to Geno Munaris rescue by preaching patience. Why cant Geno post something for himself?

I dont appreciate Geno posting that Everything is wrapped up. A major announcement will be forthcoming. and almost 2 months later still no news or announcement.

As an interested client, I do not like being left hanging for so long.

[Richard Kaufman]

Your only complaint would be if Geno started accepting orders, and taking money, for a product he couldn't deliver. He has not done that, so what's the problem? If it takes him another year to get the product completed to his satisfaction, so be it. I've been writing the second damn Jennings book for over TEN years. It'll get done, and so will Geno's DVDs.

[Guest]

I don't understand that comment about Wesley's work.

[Guest]

Despite numerous requests for an update on the Ackerman project, still no news more than one month after his last post.

I guess he does not mind that his thread on the Ackerman Erdnase DVD has been hijacked by the competition.

Perhaps he is not so vain or petty as some might imagine?

[Guest]

[And so, having only received limited acclaim for his effort at an entertaining (yet nonetheless arguably semi-insightful) post, Magicam returns to his wordy, somber, boring ways.... ]

Aw geez, Richard, pierredan has a legit point. Geno's 'transgression' certainly doesn't rise to the level of being an evil deed by any stretch of the imagination, but dismissing pierredan's politely worded expression of concern as a consumer doesn't pass the smell test.

There may be a ton of very good reasons why Geno's product has been delayed and his EACT DVD set may ultimately prove to be superior in every way, but that wasn't pierredan's point, as I read it. Pierredan was simply expressing, as I read it, a universal consumer complaint: "hey Mr. Businessman, I lose confidence in you when I feel jerked around with empty promises."

I'm not saying that Geno is intentionally "jerking" with potential buyers, but anybody with half a brain can read in this thread that representations have been made that (a) haven't panned out and (b) are contradictory.

Clay

[Geno Munari]

Hi everyone,
Sorry that you feel that there have been misrepresentations. We have a project that is taking more time to produce and post produce than estimated. The artist also wants everything perfect, not just passable. Thank you for your interest and please don't let our delay ruin your day.

[Guest]

We've waited 105 years for a quality dvd set on the Erdnase material, and we can wait a little longer.

I for one am HAPPY to hear that there is rigorous quality control being exercised, and pleased to know when I purchase the product (which I will when it becomes available) I will be getting the best possible product they could produce.

Geno, Allan, take as much time as needed.

Waiting patiently,
Ben Train

[Guest]

I agree about quality control! Tonight I started watching my new set of Wesley James EACT DVDs and was displeased to find that the PDF book on DVD 1 is apparently missing when I searched on the PC. Anyone else notice this or maybe I'm the victim of a bad set. I bought these sealed brand new, but not direct from Mr. James or MM.

[Guest]

this is not just you; the error has been picked up. If you ordered directly from Wes, he will send you the missing pdf.

[Guest]

I'm no expert in the making and designing of Dvd's.
But i absolutely can't understand how an entire Pdf section, which was promised and announced in the Magic Makers set, could not be inserted, without anyone of Magic Makers who control the dvds before they were sold.
It is absurd.
I understand print errors in books.
But i can't understand why a Dvd designer could forget to put in an entire section.
It is like a house builder forget to build the last store of a building!!
This is a sign of not too great care in the making of a product.
Only an opinion obviously.
Crim

[Jim Maloney_dup1]

It's also my understanding that Magic Makers is providing a download of the PDF file for those who purchased from other dealers. Get in touch with them about it.

-Jim

[Guest]

I'm no expert in the making and designing of Dvd's.

Clearly.

Why would the ommision of a minor, free, extra from a set of seven DVDs bother you so? That seems to me to be a fairly small mistake given the complexity of the release.

I received a review copy of a magic DVD once with the sound track missing from one of the trick explainations.

Mistakes happen.

[Guest]

For me, it is the fact that I paid for a product and didn't get ALL that was advertised. I for one probably wouldn't be bringing this up for most things as I understand that mistakes happen. It really does not matter how you purchased these DVDs, either directly from some dealer or Mr. James himself, it is still from MM. It is bad enough to have to buy a MM product at all in my opinion and then to be missing a piece of what I thought should be there just makes it a bit more difficult to be understanding of this mistake. You could say I could have avoided the purchase in the first place if I don't want to buy MM, but I'm highly interested in the material and the presenter on these DVDs. If MM is trying to change their image and produce more quality and gain the credibility they probably desire, I don't think something like this helps. Then again they probably care less for all I know. Im not slamming Mr. James for this error whatsoever, and I have read that he is making good on fixing what he can. We shall see how MM handles this as well I guess.

[Guest]

I'm usually a perfectionist in all the works i do.
And obviously all the people make mistakes in their job.
But this particular kind of mistake, which is not really a mistaker but rather an omission, makes me a little bit confused.
How is it possible to advertise this 200 hundred pages section and then forget to put it in the Dvd?
And more,
there's no one who controls the Dvd's before they're finalized and put to the market?
Also a little baby would have a piece of paper with all the section that should be on the dvd written on.
And also a baby with a little piece of paper could control if something is missing.
It is like a book published without a chapter for me.
But in this era of computers, if someone in the production would have noted the missing section, probably could have put it immediately on.
So for me this thing denotes a little careless and not so much precision in the making of the product.
Just an opinion obviously.

[Jim Maloney_dup1]

We shall see how MM handles this as well I guess.

I believe I already stated that they are making the file available. It's a mistake, not the end of the world, folks. Get in touch with them and they'll get you the file.

-Jim

[Guest]

In my case, i don't want to do any discussions.
So this will be my last post on the subject.
I never said it was the end of the world.
I only think it is a little sign for a product not developed with great care.
Regards

[Guest]

I don't think I made a big deal of this. I just stated my findings to see if I was the only one missing the file and also since the quality of the company producing this DVD set is always a topic. I have no need to argue this and really it is minor as I've been told..I'll get over it!

[Guest]

I think this thread about the Magic Makers videos is actually getting very long because very few people have actually seen the videos but still feel compelled to comment. I have watched all seven DVD's. And I have to say that I hope that the Ackerman videos do a better job in portraying the most recognizable text in card magic. Unfortunately I don't think that will be a difficult task.

In my opinion the word "Natural" that was made popular by Vernon perfectly describes what the book is about. It is used several times in the text but unfortunately only once to my recollection in this video series in the description of an overhand shuffle being sloppy to hide a jog. Hardly the context that has become so popular. (disc #2)

I will only point out a few flaws as I see them. However I am sure that any true student of the book will be able to find their own. Lets start with what the book claims is the "GREATEST SINGLE ACCOMPLISHMENT" There are a total of 8 bottom deals on the DVD set done to speed. 4 kings dealt off the bottom of the deck in demonstration and again in explanation. There where a few others done at a slower speed. I will point out that the hand position for the bottom deal was obviously difficult for Mr. James because it took him anywhere from 4 to 12 tries to get the deck positioned correctly in his hands. (the twelve tries in fairness was in the explanation and looked like it may have been edited to appear like more) Mr. James then also smugly tried to sneak in a few bottom deals of another style elsewhere in the video with out telling people what he was doing and offered no explanation. My advice to Mr. James is that if he wants to fool people with this other style of bottom deal he may want to actually touch the top card with his thumb before he mimics taking if off the top of the deck. I would also like to point out that Mr. James spent so much time and worry describing the placement of the finger in the front of the deck that he neglected to mention the position of the rest of the deck. (i.e. how the rear of the deck is held) Or even that the book states it is much easier to deal from less than a full deck (dealing bottom cards in later rounds).

I do not have the time space or energy to describe all 7 videos. I will say that for learning many of the cuts and shuffles the DVDs have a description that is accurate. However I would recommend a DVD player that has a 2X fast forward button to approximate the actual speed.

Although the term "Uniformity of Action" was not used in the video the topic was discussed however the performance section will demonstrate that the essay was not understood. I will give Mr. James a B+ for trivia but a C- on comprehension and performance. I fail to understand taking on this type of project unless you plan to do things to the letter of the book. (They certainly claimed they would) Why would someone want to add moves from other sources? And what is the point of changing the methods for the tricks? Doing second deals instead of top changes and editing out the lay-down for the queen assembly? (The answer in my guess would be that Mr. James is not as confident in his ability as he lets on.)

Finally the most glaring of sins. If you are going to put out a DVD set called Expert At the Card Table. You may want to break the habit of lifting your thumb from the back of the pack when palming. This is just an obvious mistake that almost anyone who has read half of what Mr. James has can easily fix for themselves. This DVD set certainly does not "border on the wonderful"

I am SO sick of being told what is good and what is bad by people who supposedly have cut a niche for themselves in magic. I cant even begin to tell you how angry it makes me when someone like Simon Lovell (who is somewhat talented) looks into the camera and tells me that a half hearted shift that is as loud as a drumbeat completely went by him as he mugs the camera and begs for it to be repeated with the deck face up so we the viewers can confirm that the shift has REALLY taken place. This is only one instance of the "SPIN" that is being put on these videos. They are trying to get people to say that the videos are wonderful before they have even been understood. Pages have been written in this forum by people who have not viewed these discs. If you have the time to post you have the time to view this DVD set. You may not like the videos but there are things to be learned from them. Things to do as well as NOT to do but so far you will have to read the book to know the difference.


I hope that you can understand my points. I do not mean to offend anyone involved with this project, I will retract any statement that I have made that can not be confirmed in one viewing. Let the record stand that even the amount of work put forth by Mr. James who has obviously spent a long time learning from the 200 pages is still not up to a task of this caliber. And MAYBE when he and Simon Lovell have fixed the problems with what I have described I will consider their opinions of the author being a "drunk", "high", "physical coward".

Although it may be to late I do NOT wish to imply that these videos have no merit. I cannot think of one single person that could do everything in the book flawlessly. However in the introduction Rob Stiff claims he polled card magicians and that Wes James was the only name that came up as a person that could tackle the subject matter. I feel that perhaps "In our price range" may have been omitted from his script. My beef is not with how Wesley James palms it is not with his bottom deal or his shifts (some of the palms and shifts looked okay) It is with the complete disregard for the word expert. I have seen card experts, I know card experts none of them make the claims of Mr. James. None of them are smug, none of them claim to have "fixed" Erdnase none of them would want recognition for being an expert.

I hate being political but... Alan Ackerman (Who in my opinion is an "expert") is also doing a video set with this subject matter. If only one set is in your budget I would wait until its reviews are published.

Jerrold

[Guest]

Jerrold,
First, let me thank you for sharing your impressions of the DVD set with the community. Evidently you feel you have sufficient expertise to reach the conclusions you do, not withstanding your premature judgement about a set of DVDs that you have not yet viewed. I trust that Allan/Geno will do an fine job and Allan is certainly qualified to express an opinion about the Erdnase work. I question, however, your dismissal of my expertise. Fifty years of studying the work are ample grounding for the conclusions I reach.

Regarding the material itself, my execution of the material can be no better than the material itself in terms of "naturalness." As I point out on the DVDs, Erdnase is at odds with his own admonitions in that regard. In some instances this is a reparable problem while in others it is not. I am merely the messenger not the creator of the "naturalness" issues with the Erdnase material. Regarding the thumb lift during the palming techniques, for example, it is inherent in some of the Erdnase techniques, which is why I advocate other approaches that avoid the problem. The Bottom Deal issues are issues with the Erdnase technique, not my execution of the technique, as Erdnase himself acknowledges, and I do mention the concept of delaying the deal to allow the Bottoms to be dealt from a depleted deck; in fact I demonstrate it. The Shifts, I would point out, are flawed in Erdnase's stated opinion. My emendations to the techniques move them forward but cannot eliminate the flaws that Erdnase himself recognizes.

Turning to the adjustments I made to the effects in the Card Tricks section. To simply parrot the material that Erdnase shares would have served little purpose. The craft of magic has advanced considerably over the past 105 years and the attention span of modern audiences is not the same as it was in 1902. Moreover, the performance environment must be considered in the performance of any effect. It would have, to speak to your example, been quite possible to use Top Changes in many instances simply to remain consistent with the Erdnase text--I address the Top Change at some length on the DVDs and have used the Top Change in my own work for many years--I simply felt that the Second Deal was better suited to the circumstances. You are, of course, free to disagree but having used a Second Deal under similar circumstances for many years I have no doubt of its deceptiveness. Further, I can't speak for Simon Lovell, who is quite capable of speaking for himself, but the viewer has the advantage of hearing the sound of the Shift you note through my microphone while Simon has to use his ears. Thus, what the viewer hears is not the same as what Simon would have heard. Moreover, I acknowledge in my comments that the move is noisy but that it is probably not a problem in the circumstances under which it would likely be used.

In sum, you are certainly entitled to your opinion but you reveal your bias through your failure to view the material through the lens of what it is intended to be, rather than what you would want it is be. As I told Rob Stiff when I agreed to tackle the project, if all he sought was blanket praise of the Erdnase work or a parrot of its material, there was little point in my involvement. The contribution of the Set is to show the Erdnase material warts and all. In that form it is still an excellent work for its time and much of its content remains valid today. It is not, however a perfect work and neither is my DVD set. I think I can safely say that neither will Allan's set be. Still, we will each move knowledge forward. I'll look forward to your set of DVDs with the expectation that you too will move all of our knowledge forward as you see fit.

Wesley James

[Guest]

I think the point he's making is: if you can't do the original material competently you certainly shouldn't be hawking poorly executed 'updated' handlings. It's a bit presumptuous with any revered magical text, but especially so with Erdnase.