Expert at the Card Table with Allan Ackerman

[Marc Rehula]

Erdnase, I've decided, is worshipped by too many magicians. If you DON'T update the material (which is difficult to read, difficult to perform, and, you must admit, sometimes if not often inferior to the current state of card magic). Many have worked the material, and -- dare I say it? -- improved the material. If nothing else, you MUST personalize the material. So what we have is James's personalization, internalization, interpretation of Erdnase.

I too look forward to Ackerman's personalized, internalized interpretation of Erdnase. I've read Ackerman's books, I've seen Ackerman perform, and I can say (IMHO, as they say) that Ackerman has some improvements over Erdnase's material.

I'd rather see an Ackerman DVD set that is a complete course in card magic without the baggage of the Erdnase name, but the Erdnase name is obviously a hot button that will sell more copies.

[Guest]

How is it that I have always heard high praise for Wesley James and now I get the impression from some posts here that he lacks any kind of ability? I have never seen him perform before until this DVD set and I thought he handled many of the unpractical moves as good as could be, especially in the card table section. I think he does show the good and bad in these DVDs. The bad, a lot of the times, is because the moves seem to be unworkable, not so much a poor technical performace of that move. How much better is Ackerman going to perform some of those terrible color changes if he does put those into his set? Probably not much. I do think the statement from Stiff reagarding polling of magicians was probably a bunch of crap. But really, who is THE living authority on this book? Is it Ackerman? What about Ortiz? I think people should give Mr. James a break for doing this project at all. I mean how much better can a person, even these mysterious experts, make some of the stuff in Erdnase if they really wanted to do so or why? I will not buy Magic Makers ever again however because not only did they forget the PDF file and give me the hassle of trying to obtain it, the bottom of the crappy DVD case has already broken apart and fallen off. :) If L&L had done this set I bet it would cost $200, but the case would be ok and the PDF would have been there.

[John Bowden]

Well done Mr James, you have produced a fine piece of work with your interputation of Expert at the Card Table.

You don't need to defend or explain yourself.

I purchased the DVDs from The Magic Apple and after a post here I found that my Pdf. file was also missing. A quick email explaining the situtation and an equally quick reply and I had a link for the file. I downloaded it and put it on Vol 1 of the DVDs........... no hassle, no problem, no complaining.

I'll also get the Ackermann DVDs when they arrive on the market, not for comparasion but for completeness. I'd be interested to see his handlings and what new insights he'll bring to the table. His work to date has being admirable.

To all your critics, I say " where were you when the DVDs were blank".

Cheers from the Emerald Isle,

John Bowden..........the Irish Magician

[Richard Kaufman]

The only sleight in Erdnase that appears to me to be "unworkable" in close-up conditions is what I believe is called the Open Shift.

I have seen Charlie Miller do almost every sleight in Erdnase, gambling and magical, and all looked superb. Many others as well. However, I have never seen anyone do the Open Shift in a close-up situation where it was deceptive.

In short, I think that I've seen virutally every sleight with the noted exception performed nearly perfectly by various experts.

[Guest]

Here's Ackermans performance of the Open Shift. I'm sure it would have made Charlie smile.

tcb

[Guest]

I don't think I have space here for my full reply with Wesley's statements but I have shortened as much as I could. I hope it still makes sense.

WJ: Evidently you feel you have sufficient expertise to reach the conclusions you do, not withstanding your premature judgment about a set of DVDs that you have not yet viewed.
JO: I am confused I have seen yours, I have not seen the Ackerman DVDs and in my post I recommend that the reader get reviews of Ackerman's (and yours) before buying either if the money is not expendable.
WJ: ... I question, however, your dismissal of my expertise...
JO: I expressed that "even though you have worked hard you are not up to a task of this caliber." I stand by that statement as well as I am unaware of ANYONE who could do everything in the book flawlessly. I am eager to see the Ackerman videos. Alan is a great sleight of hand artist I feel that he is a great talent and more than likely a genius in its true sense. It is because of his back ground I would not consider it a detriment if he strayed from the book as I would someone that is a self billed authority on the book. Please forgive me if you have that reputation among others but I have not heard much about your work prior to this project. ( I can see how you may find it unfair to be openly graded on a tougher scale than Alan Ackerman)
WJ: Regarding the material itself, my execution of the material can be no better than the material itself in terms of "naturalness."
JO: OH BOY! I think what we are debating that the material is a little better than you give it credit for.
WJ: .. Regarding the thumb lift during the palming techniques...it is inherent in some of the Erdnase techniques, which is why I advocate other approaches...
JO: Again I am unaware that the book endorses moving your thumb while palming. I thought it said something about not making any action that could be detected or suspected by a critical observer. And that good palming borders on the wonderful. I will also state that Vernon claims "The Erndase top palm is by far superior to any other" yet you offer replacements and updates. I agree w/ Vernon and if I am wrong I am in good company. I am just going thru all the palms in Erdnase here at my desk and none require the thumb movement you defend and I feel your improvements lack sophistication in comparison.
WJ: The Bottom Deal issues are issues with the Erdnase technique, not my execution of the technique, as Erdnase himself acknowledges,
JO: I did not mention anything that would have to be "seen" by the reader to know that it is wrong. I mentioned that you had difficulty getting the cards in position. I will paraphrase Vernon (from The Vernon Touch) "It takes 7 years for the deck to be naturally placed in the hand..." I believe that it was one of the qualifications Vernon put forth for "expertise". S.W. also suggests that "practice will take care of" the problems you have with the deal and since you don't address them I assume you agree with my first post. P.S.you did not give a complete description of the bottom deal or offer any improvements.
WJ: and I do mention the concept of delaying the deal to allow the Bottoms to be dealt from a depleted deck; in fact I demonstrate it
JO: on 2 reviews of the bottom deal section I did not find that the case.
WJ:The Shifts, I would point out, are flawed in Erdnase's stated opinion. My emendations to the techniques move them forward but cannot eliminate the flaws...
JO: I think by now we are both aware that the other knows that the perfect shift is yet to be invented. I think the real comment of what I stated in my first post will become clear later. But as far as your suggestions for the "improved" shifts as you demonstrated them the two handed shift from the book is BY FAR the best.
WJ: Turning to the adjustments I made to the effects in the Card Tricks section. To simply parrot the material that Erdnase shares would have served little purpose... has advanced considerably over the past 105 years ...attention span of modern audiences ...
JO: That is a blanket statement with no examples to back it up. You say on vol. 6 "I think the book is as good today as 105 years ago..." -except when I challenge you on the issues or you hit a spot that you can't make look worth a damn.
WJ: ... the performance environment must be considered ...
JO: I am glad you brought this up. I will give you one of many possible examples. For your "Top and Bottom Production" The DVD pauses and a note from the director appears that states that do to performance conditions you are going to change the routine to use cuts instead of shifts. Is this one of your improvements? I hate to call Shenanigans (no I don't obviously) but do you expect anyone to believe that in the two years you claim you worked on this project the blocking for this trick completely slipped your mind and that you didn't have complete control over how the room was set up? How odd that the bad angle for this trick is from THE FRONT. The book states that the required moves are: The two handed shift, palm and blind shuffle. All of those where done elsewhere in the show -- I would also like to ask you that if you reply to this post could you please tell me if you actually performed the "Exclusive Coterie" for that audience or if the entire thing was a sham and edited in later with Rob Stiff's voice calling out the packets for you as you read the script?
WJ: I address the Top Change ...I simply felt that the Second Deal was better suited to the circumstances.... a Second Deal under similar circumstances for many years I have no doubt of its deceptiveness.
JO: I doubt that many would agree that replacing the top change with a second deal at that point in the "card under the hat" is an improvement But lets say it was why not stick with the text? And why put the card back flush with the deck at that critical point in the routine?
WJ:Further,... hearing the sound of the Shift ...
JO:I did NOT criticize your shift at that time. At this point I was pointing out the fact that the true agenda of this DVD set is to convince those who are unfamiliar with the book and possibly those who are new to magic that THIS DVD SET IS THE FINAL WORD before they absorb the true meaning of the information given. This was done to create a buzz on this and other forums as well as where ever beginners give other beginners information. And the testimonials are used to sell more videos just because somebody on the video implies your video is the shiz-nit. (8.5 hours of it could be considered brain washing) I guess you have never been to a magic club and had somebody come up and show you "MITCHELL AMMAR's Twisting The Aces" from his video set. Because if you had you would realize what this type of "HYPE" has long lasting effects.
WJ: ...you reveal your bias through your failure to view the material through the lens of what it is intended to be... if all he sought was blanket praise of the Erdnase work or a parrot of its material... The contribution of the Set is to show the Erdnase material warts and all.... excellent work for its time...much of its content remains valid today. It is not, however a perfect work and neither is my DVD set. I think I can safely say that neither will Allan's set be. Still, we will each move knowledge forward. I'll look forward to your set of DVDs with the expectation that you too will move all of our knowledge forward as you see fit.
JO: I tried to keep my opinions out of what I had written. If you could be so kind as to tell us what the project was really supposed to be. I don't recall any ads that say "Expert at the Card Table - Warts and All" for a project that holds the name Erdnase or at least his title could easily lead someone to a conclusion that the material is NOT out of date. What you call parroting I would call a tribute. There are no toes to step on with an unknown man who has likely to have been dead for 80 years.
As for my bias I am unsure what you mean. I am not a close personal friend with Ackerman but have met him. I admit before this project I have heard little of you. As for my DVD set I have to say I would never attempt it. Even if I was an "expert". I have been helped by many for whom I will always be grateful. The small amount of knowledge I have was given to me with condition and only after knowing that the display of one's ability and knowledge is a death blow. (not literally in my case).

[Guest]

I haven't seen the DVDs in question, but for what it's worth, Wesley isn't the first person to publish variations on Erdnase. Off the top of my head, others who've done such things include Vernon (diagonal palm shift), Ortiz (palm change, top palm, blind overhand shuffle to retain the bottom stock), LePaul (bottom palm), and Marlo (marnase bottom deal). I can think of worse company to be in. Er, worse company in which to be? Something like that.

Andru

[Guest]

It is not that W.James put his spin on it. He claims to have made it better. As he demonstrates he can do neither to perfection. - I am more offended that he claims in his own words that the book is out of date when in fact his improvements are not as good as what he trying to fix.

He pokes fun at Erdnase for not being up to his standards. (when it is obvious that his standard for expert is liberal to say the least.)

[Evan Shuster]

Geez Jerrold... give it a rest!

[Dave Egleston]

Actually Mr James didn't bother me at all, in fact I found him to be very entertaining. I wish he could have done the videos alone, the other guy added nothing as far as I am concerned - His attempted humor(?) was forced and shallow at best.

As far as Mr. James' Erdnase knowledge: I just add that to the other things I've read and watched, when I've studied this enigmatic subject as long as Vernon, Marlo, James, Hatch, Alexander, Ackerman, England, Kenner and Munari I'll be able to form an opinion.

I think we should be more concerned about not having Mr. James 200 page write-up included on the disks and having to download as an afterthought.

Along with the cheapest dvd case I've ever seen - Three of the holders were broken upon receipt and sounded like a box of rocks when I took it out of the mailbox.

In closing - Thanks Mr James for your insight and performance.

Mr.Stiff, I'd think you would start paying attention, you're losing more customers with each product you "produce". Even the "Kidz" are starting to compare your crap with L&L, Stevens, Carney and Houdini Magic and you're found to be lacking.

Dave

[Guest]

Why should he give it a rest?

Oh, that's right. Because in magic, there are only a handful of people who are allowed to have a dissenting view. If Wesley James didn't want to get into it, he should have just ignored the initial critical comment. If Jamy Swiss had posted a hard but well-reasoned critical assessment (as Jerrold's was), you wouldn't have said "give it a rest." How is that fair?

As a rule, it's unwise for authors/creators to dip their toe into debates about their work. It happens sometimes in magic because usually these threads are non-critical ass-kissing exercises. I guess it must sting and bring tears to Mr.James' eyes when someone doesn't read from the script.

Joe E. Pike

[Guest]

Jerrold

I look forward to reading your in-depth critique of the Ackerman DVDs upon their release.

Regards

Andrew

[Guest]

I for one have gone back through some of the discs and I see more gaps than the first time around, not sure why this didn't register with me at once. If you watch the cull shuffle sections for instance you will see Mr. James perform the moves, but not to speed, and with huge jogs (he says they are large on purpose for demonstration) mind you. Never does he go back and re-do the move at a real performance pace or how he would 'really' perform it. This kind of stuff is ok as long as maybe you say you can't do the move at speed but I'm just going to teach it as is or something. I just remember him telling Simon Lovell at one point "of course I can do it" and then he proceeds with the same type of demonstration only tactics. Jerrold has many good points here and should not have to give it a rest. I do find it strange that he has never heard much about Wesley James however before these DVDs. I did email MM and they sent me the PDF file within about a 1/2 hour of my message for what that is worth. This email had Rob Stiff's name on it, but I'm not sure if it was an auto generated thing. I haven't read through the PDF really, but it seems to have some notes and maybe some interesting history.

[Evan Shuster]

"Why should he give it a rest?

Oh, that's right. Because in magic, there are only a handful of people who are allowed to have a dissenting view. If Wesley James didn't want to get into it, he should have just ignored the initial critical comment. If Jamy Swiss had posted a hard but well-reasoned critical assessment (as Jerrold's was), you wouldn't have said "give it a rest." How is that fair?

As a rule, it's unwise for authors/creators to dip their toe into debates about their work. It happens sometimes in magic because usually these threads are non-critical ass-kissing exercises. I guess it must sting and bring tears to your eyes when someone doesn't read from the script.

Joe E. Pike"


Don't be such a pompous jerk. I was merely referring to the fact that this thread is about Mr. Ackerman, not Mr. James. Yes, I do appreciate Wesley's set, despite any flaws or omissions identified in this thread, and I also look forward to Allan's set, but I assure you that my eyes are unstung and far from tearing. Read into it all you want, and amuse yourself to your heart's content with your self-appraised wit. I, for one, have had enough of the bellyaching and look forward to returning this thread to the constructive vein it began with.

[Guest]

"Pompous Jerk?" Oh, boy.

When you can read my posts and actually correctly interpret who I am referring to in them, I'll give yours some attention.

[Guest]

Joe, I dont know what your qualifications are in magic performance. In any case, its almost a certainty that you would be in a better position than I to criticize the technical elements of any card sleight.

If one of your points is that its fair to level constructive criticism at anothers public work, I tend to agree with you. Whatever Jerrold OBriens qualifications are, and regardless of whether one disagrees with him or not, thus far on this board, hes been the only one to offer any kind of detailed, concrete criticism.

Lets look at your concrete contributions to this thread. You have opined that magic is doomed in response to the news that MM was producing a similar treatise on EACT not once, but three times. Following those announcements, you have accused MM of piggy-backing on someone else's idea and have stated that it isn't the gentlemanly thing to do. Next, you stated that Wesley James is not the first (or even ninth or tenth) person who springs to mind when you think of someone who is an expert on EACT. Later, you implied that the MM EACT DVDs were tantamount to a remaindered product.

From your posts, it seems fair to say that you dont like or have a very high opinion of MM or Wesley James, or both of them. It also seems fair to say that you are quite biased in respect of the opinions you have expressed on this thread. Ones bias, if grounded in fact and objective experience, is not necessarily a bad thing. And perhaps, even, your bias will be proved up as the James and Ackerman DVDs are judged by history.

But IMO it is disingenuous at best to suggest that Evan Shuster cries when someone doesnt read from the script, for, justified or not, nearly all you have done in this thread is read from the script of negativity and sarcasm.

You have been quick to judge a product which (apparently) you have not viewed yourself. As I see it, thats not a very credible approach to constructive criticism or gentlemanly conduct.

You have also suggested that MM is copying Geno Munaris idea. I havent been involved in performance magic for a very long time, but I can tell you that the idea of having an expert in card magic expound on EACT is well over 30 years old. Is MM copying Geno? I dont know. But as old as the idea is (and I suspect its much older than 30 years), are you willing to concede that perhaps Geno is copying someone elses idea? Are you willing to accuse Kaufman & Greenberg of copying L&L in connection with reprinting Stanyons Magic Magazine? Or accuse L&L of doing the copying? (Both companies published a reprint of Magic at about the same time.) Do you know for a fact that MM is copying an idea that you apparently believe originated with Geno Munari or Mr. Ackerman?

I dont have a problem with you expressing your opinion. But I do have an issue when one begins reciting high-minded principles yet does not appear to follow the same rules of conduct.

[Richard Kaufman]

Break! Return to your corners and let's keep it clean.

[Guest]

I still think I was correct when I predicted that people who are interested in this sort of thing will buy both products. Neither are particularly expensive...I understand Geno's is supposed to retail at $150, so that means for less than $300 a student of cards can have two experts and their interpretations of Erdnase in many hours of video.

Think of all the fun you'll all have running the two DVDs side by side to compare technique and how the thumb moved on one and didn't on the other and how the little finger moved or didn't move. Hours and hours of fun, no doubt.

There's probably enough material to keep everyone arguing into the second half of this century.

[Guest]

I don't know, if I had to do it again I would wait and save my money instead of buying the MM version. Anyone who has been reading along and thinking of purchasing MM can do so with a little bit of an idea of the gaps that are there and maybe avoid this set unless you really are a fan of Wesley James. I still think Wesley James seemed like a well spoken and talented teacher, even if some of the content wasn't truly performed as I would have liked to have seen. Another bulk of the material I thought Wesley did well performing. When you watch, especially after a repeat viewing, you really get a sense of what he is truly most comfortable with and what he sort of pretends to be comfortable with. Still for my purchase I am learning something and that is what matters to me. I'm looking forward to the Ackerman DVDs for sure when they come out and I'm hoping that these types of things are better. I think to hold me over until the release I will re-watch the false deals DVD from Ackerman's Advanced Card Control Series...sweet stuff!

[Guest]

Andrew- Wow thank you but I am not qualified to judge Alan Ackerman unless he opts not to do anything with cards and just tells dirty jokes and makes crude noises or something. (I have the work on that) The good news about the James videos is W. James was first he will be judged on the book's standards. He will set the bar. Now all Ackerman has to do is stretch out and poll volt over it.

Mrehula- (the respectful young man who wished Alan Ackerman had a complete course in card magic video set) You are the most lucky guy on the fourm today. There is one! :) it is 8 (maybe more) vols. AND if you have a VHS player you can probably get it for cheap. - I LOVED MINE ! He has one on False deals, Palming, Utility Moves and just about anything you can think of with cards. BTW the reason you are so lucky is that you can get them right away and watch them while we are waiting around for the next set like it is the last season of the Sapranos. (Just kid'n Mr. Ackerman take your time I will wait)

Brian R. - I am glad you came around to my thinking. Sorry you now have buyer's remorse.

Joe- Thanks for sticking up for me. Sorry you got in trouble.

Richard- I never got to see Charlie Miller... Do you know if it is true that not only could he do everything (except the open shift) in the book flawlessly and then put the deck in his right hand and do everything again left handed ?

[Guest]

[For the record, Joe Pike deleted a post he made sometime after 11:00 p.m., wherein he wrote (1) that his dooomed comment was a humorous reference to Homer Simpson and hazarded the guess that nobody got his humor, and (2) that he was referring to Wesley James as the one who was crying when someone didnt read from the script.]


Joe, perhaps this is an instance of when words, miswritten or misread, are incorrectly "interpreted."

Why should he give it a rest?

... If Wesley James didn't want to get into it, he should have just ignored the initial critical comment. If Jamy Swiss had posted a hard but well-reasoned critical assessment (as Jerrold's was), you wouldn't have said "give it a rest." ...

... I guess it must sting and bring tears to your eyes when someone doesn't read from the script.

Please note your use of the words you and your in your post. The first you clearly refers to Evan, since hes the one who wrote give it a rest. When you refer to Wesley James, you use the word he. So its only logical and reasonable that Evan would read the line ... bring tears to your eyes ... as referring to Evan not Wesley James.

Good writing and reading are matters of art and craft. We see poor writing on this board, and we see the results of poor reading here as well. IMHO, in this case, Evan was a good reader and your post was poorly written, considering that you intended to refer to Mr. James by your use of the word your.

Poetry is subject to interpretation. Expositional writing, if well done, should not be.

If you reconsider how your post may have been reasonably read, perhaps you will conclude that the ensuing exchange between you and Evan might have been less harsh had you written a bit more clearly.

Clay

[Guest]

[For the record, Joe Pike has deleted a post he made shortly after my 2:35 a.m. post, wherein he simply wrote, Thanks, Dad.]


Its good that you respect your elders. Now (as dad would say), it is up to you to apply your newly-learned lessons, my son. :)

[Guest]

I feel like a dog watching television.

[Guest]

Now that's good expositional writing regarding some of your prior posts. Keep applying those lessons, son!

Dad


[For the record, Joe Pike has deleted a post he made shortly after my post above, wherein he wrote, Youve obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a [censored] and followed that with Sorry, Richard, Ill stop taking up bandwidth with nugatory exchanges with this young lady.]

[Terry]

Think of all the fun you'll all have running the two DVDs side by side to compare technique and how the thumb moved on one and didn't on the other and how the little finger moved or didn't move. Hours and hours of fun, no doubt.

There's probably enough material to keep everyone arguing into the second half of this century.

You are correct.

The book itself is over 100 years old and people are still arguing over it.

No one will be 100% happy with anything and are willing to argue their point until you either accept it or are so beaten down you'll leave it alone.

I have owned/viewed other Ackerman videos and if desiring to purchase any of the Erdnase DVD's, would most likely purchase his. No offense meant to Mr. James, it's just that I don't know him or have had the opportunity to view his work so I am less likely to spend the money on his version.

My $$, my choice. That's why we celebrate a free market economy.

[Guest]

The good news about the James videos is W. James was first he will be judged on the book's standards. He will set the bar. Now all Ackerman has to do is streatch out and pollvolt over it.

Well if he doesn't, Jerrold, I trust you'll be just as critical of him as you were of WJ.

Joe - Do us all a favour.......

[Guest]

Joe Pike:

Please explain why you deleted some of your most recent posts.

Clay


[Richard/Dustin: I think you know what I'd like to say and why, but it's probably best to first allow Joe to explain himself.]

[Guest]

I felt that I was taking up too much bandwidth in allowing you to demonstrate your quite spectacular talent for pedantry.

Did I "explain" myself to your satisfaction?

Joe

[Guest]

I would love to see a video by an expert showing me exactly the moves as they are taught in Erdnase. As a video representation of this historical document. I would hope, for educational reasons, that flaws and/or limitations in the moves would be communicated.

I would also love to see a video of an expert updating this technique to incorporate the many improvements that have been developed over the intervening hundred-off years.

Either of those would be useful. Both of those together would be very useful.

This thread, not so much.

[Guest]

Pete- I also think that a video describing the moves and effects from the book would be worth seeing if they where done by an expert. (for more than just historical reasons.)

And even though there have been many good moves and tricks in the last 100 years they have all found their own sources their own books and their own videos and some have been kept secret by the originators.

Since the ideas discussed in this thread have escaped you let me state simply that the S.W.Erdnase who was disrespected so much by the creators of this DVD/PDF/Book combo that his name was not even included on the cover of his reprinted book. (How unlike Magic Makers not to give credit... I guess old habits die hard)

To address that the information in this book needs updating we must realize that the tools the book 'deals' with (no pun intended) have changed very little with the exception of the poor quality of cards we are getting these days. (they had bad cards back then as well but some of the cards they had we would kill for.)

The human eye was just as astute back then as it is today and still it is believed that the author risked his life daily with some of the very same methods he lays out for us in the book. Regardless of the methods in the book the moves and the tricks are not what the book is about. All that fancy boring theory that long winded people spout on the internet - clear throat - is derived from this book (and a few others) As well as the foundation of modern close up magic. (Not just cards)

We have been so lucky to have had champions of the Erdnase cause until now. But just 12 or so years after Vernon died nobody thinks twice about calling the author a "drunk" "high" "physical coward" for the simple reason that they can not make the moves look as good as they would like and that they don't understand why he needed to work with a partner. (collusion may also have been a reason Mr. James he may have wanted a partner that could be trained quickly where ever he traveled. If the partner was a big dumb brute all the better but he wouldn't have played cards as well.)

[Guest]

I want to apologize to Richard, Dustin and especially Jerrold O'Brien. My horsing around was too convenient a distraction for some from the issue of addressing Jerrold's rational and compelling criticisms of the Wesley James DVDs. I look forward to Jerrold chiming in on the Ackerman DVDs when they are released.

Apologies,
Joe

[Guest]

No problem with me bud. I watch the Simpsons.

[Guest]

I for one enjoy, love and respect the type of reviews that Jerrold has given us.

He is not worried about offending anyone or hurting anybodys feelings, he just gives us his honest opinion on the product.

Because of his and others reviews, I will never buy the MM product. I will wait for the Ackerman version.

I am looking forward to honest reviews of that product as well. Hopefully Ackerman can execute all of the moves, unlike Wesley James... so it seems.

[Guest]

I might shock the world here but here it goes. I do NOT endorse a total boycott of Magic Makers. Although every one who reads this can spend their money where and on whatever they like a boycott of the MM in my opinion would not have the desired effect in fact it would only encourage them to do the same.

I have a friend who's name you would all recognize that used to put out GREAT magic products. A few months ago I asked him if he was working on anything new he replied he wouldn't be releasing anything but he does have a couple of products Magic Makers would LOVE. (Implying that they would be to easy to knock off.)

MM although they have hurt people I know financially I recommend that people buy their products that are not knock offs to encourage them to do the right thing with the rest of their products. They can sell all the silks hipity hop rabbits (I have a set) and sponge balls they like. (they seem to carry many products that are in the public domain). They also show a great potential to possibly bank roll new products that may not see the light of day without the production contacts they have.

If you go back to my first post I do not recommend that nobody buy (is that a double negative?)the video put out by W. James. I do warn them of its many flaws. I state that there are many things to be learned to do and NOT to do but you will have to read the book to know the difference. I also say that if you only have the money for one set that you may want to get informed of your options.

This is NOT the first time that someone has announced that they will be putting out a video set of a famous publication and then WHOOPS! Magic Makers put one out first. I also write above to Andrew that it may not be such a bad thing that it did come out first.

So if anyone is in need of my blessing feel free to buy non-knock off items from Magic Makers (with caution).

RAGE 1- I hope you will still enjoy, love, and respect my reviews. But in fact I do care if I hurt peoples feelings. I don't want anyone including Rob Stiff and Wesley James to be hurt. But when they insult the honor of one of my heroes who is not around to defend himself I have to say something. I think about what my parents thought when they heard the names George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. Now when I hear these names I think George Washington cheated on his wife and had slaves - Thomas Jefferson cheated on with his wife WITH slaves - OH! and Columbus killed the Indians. I can't sit back and let Erdnase be belittled because I don't want him to be that guy that wrote that out dated book. (even tho I would be able to have all the good stuff to my self.)

[Jim Maloney_dup1]

Since the ideas discussed in this thread have escaped you let me state simply that the S.W.Erdnase who was disrespected so much by the creators of this DVD/PDF/Book combo that his name was not even included on the cover of his reprinted book. (How unlike Magic Makers not to give credit... I guess old habits die hard)

This statement is pretty ridiculous. Magic Makers is not avoiding giving credit to Erdnase -- the whole DVD set is called "The Man Who Knows Erdnase". I think it's quite clear who wrote the original book. Furthermore, of the 28 editions of the book listed on www.erdnase.com , only 13 (less than half) included the author's name on the cover. Among those that did NOT mention Erdnase on the cover are:

1. The original first edition put out by Erdnase himself
2. Vernon's Revelations
3. The CARC "bible" edition.

So, unless you feel that Erdnase had self esteem issues or that Vernon and Kalush are also disrespecting Erdnase, I think you may wish to reconsider your above statement.

-Jim

[Ryan Matney]

Erdnase is overrated.

[Guest]

I have no idea where this topic is headed, but much like a train wreck I cannot look away...

[Guest]

Jim-
You also get a B+ in trivia. (at least) Dai Vernon's Revelations did put the authors name on the cover (if you consider Vernon the author) BUT the two Examples you gave and all the others had a title page that is NOT included in the Magic Makers version (it is shown in the link you give in the first little picture on the left.) So B.K. did give the author credit for the "bible version". It is a small book and I would guess they left it off for esthetics. They do give full credit on the title page (Pictured)

The format is a little different for Hard Cover books than soft cover books. And I do not know the etiquette for the bible type cover books but I am sure B.K. does. (he is good at that kinda thing)

Even though I feel this answer justifies my comment I will give you this one. I may have been jumping the gun a little bit or going for the cheap slam cuz' I am ticked off... Better?

OH I forgot the first edition (the same title page thing) but I will add it was the choice of the publisher (S.W. himself)and a Hardcover.

[Guest]

More bibliographic trivia: Both the First Edition and the CARC Bible edition do have the author's name on cover, just not the front cover. Both clearly say "Erdnase" in gilt letters on the spine. It is also on the spine of most other editions cited.

[Guest]

I find Rob Stiff's need to be an on camera 'personality' to be distracting enough to not even consider purchasing any DVD in which he's has decided to feature himself as the foil to the star performer.
Not being a complete Magic Makers boycotter, I've purchased a couple of DVD's that had material on them unavailable elsewhere (thus not bootlegged or ripped off) and find Stiff's mug on the DVD's actually makes ME uncomfortable watching his forced responses to the onscreen action.

For this reason alone I'll purchase and enjoy the Ackerman DVD's. Ackerman is at least dead honest on camera, even though he's not the most polished speaker around.

Wesly James by himself on camera, or with somebody else who really cares about Erdnase (like Vernon did with Freeman)would perhaps be more tempting, but Rob Stiff and his feigning interest in the subject matter of whatever DVD he features himself in is just plain unenjoyable to watch.

I'd also like to be reading reviews that implied that Wesly had a bit more honest love for Erdnase and his book.
I don't really enjoy sharing the thoughts of the 'Erdnase is overrated' or 'Erdnase needs to be re-worked' camp.
No offence directed towards that camp or those folks, but the book is what it is, and I prefer to engage with folks who (like Vernon and Freeman) loved the book for exactly what it is.