Mindfreak I and II

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
Guest

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Guest » August 4th, 2005, 8:55 pm

Sorry my response to betadine was also meant to be funny. Guess I missed!

As for the pen changing sides, not sure, I didn't cut that piece. My guess? It moved a few times more and that part was cut for time.

It really is pretty hard to tell a cohesive story in an extremely specific timeframe. I mean, it can't be 1 frame (1/30th of a second) long or short when it's finished. Sometimes to get those last few extra seconds taken out of a show it comes down to tightening every spot you can. A process frequently referred to as "frame f***ing," because you're literally trying to make up anywhere from 10-20 seconds a few frames at a time. That's for all TV shows, obviously, not just this one.

Rick Maue
Posts: 115
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Rick Maue » August 4th, 2005, 9:40 pm

Greetings,

Due to reasons beyond my control, my time spent reading on-line forums is very limitedbut that doesn't bother me much. After all, as I have stated in the past, in many ways, I believe that the internet has changed the face of magicit has made it frown. (Fortunately, the level of discussion is often much higher here on the Genii Forum than in other places. It would be enough to make the competition "green" with envy.)

But with all of that said, I do try to spend a couple of minutes scanning through a few different forums every so often just to see what is happening. As expected, many of the recent discussions have turned to Criss Angel. And as with everything else on-line, this topic has created controversy, animosity, and even a bit of worthwhile rational discussion. (Oh yes, it has also created humor with the huge number of magicians that all know for a fact that camera tricks and stooges are the main methods for a large percentage of the effects. After all, if I planned to specialize in demonstrations that utilized camera edits and plants for a television series, I too would hire brilliant people like Banachek, Johnny Thompson, Luke Jermay, Todd Robbins, etc)

But regardless of all of that, for the most part, I thought that I would do as I always door, in other words, I would pretty much keep my thoughts to myself. After all, as I stated at the beginning of this post, my time on-line is very limited. But believe it or not, I do have a reason for telling you all of this. To begin, I simply wanted P.T. Murphy to realize that posting to most forums is something that I rarely do, but I found it necessary in this case so that I could applaud his commentsespecially when he said This is a great commercial for magic.

And a nice portion of my applause goes to Richard as well, for he too understands how and why any such television exposure is good for our art form. So let us take the time to thank Criss Angel, Alain Nu, David Blaine, and all the others that work so hard to get the message out that magic is not just for children, and that not all magicians are content to be the opening act for cake and ice cream. But, with that said, it is equally important for each of us to understand that magic is not just walking the streets to perform miracles for strangers either. Our job is to transform the craft of magic into art by adding ourselves to the performance, thus allowing us to share our unique vision with our audiences.

We all have opinions regarding what we like and what we dislike. That is certainly healthy because those opinions help us to determine what our own artistic vision isand how we can achieve it. The key is to understand that whether we like Criss, Alain, or anyone else, is not important. It is also not important whether or not we can duplicate their effects, or if the effects can be presented live. After all, if you lived in the world of corporate marketing, as I did for a couple of decades, you would understand that duplicating the things that others have already done only means that you are not a leader.

Simply put, for those that know and understand how to market successfully, television shows such as these are pure gold. For those that do not, they will merely continue their on-line arguments.


Keep the change,
Rick Maue
Deceptions Unlimited

User avatar
Ryan Matney
Posts: 978
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Abingdon, Va
Contact:

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Ryan Matney » August 5th, 2005, 12:18 am

After watching the meathook episode I feel certain of one thing. Unlike what happened with Blaine, I bet we see VERY FEW magicians saying they could do what Criss is doing just as well.

Frankly, A&E couldn't come up with enough money to get me to do that.

And, while not magic, I think it was more successful than the wine barrell and SUV stunt.
Get the Dirty Work - Available now at http://www.ryanmatneymagic.com

User avatar
Ryan Matney
Posts: 978
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Abingdon, Va
Contact:

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Ryan Matney » August 5th, 2005, 12:30 am

What happened to Mondo Magic anyway, is it not coming back?
Get the Dirty Work - Available now at http://www.ryanmatneymagic.com

Guest

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Guest » August 5th, 2005, 2:19 am

Originally posted by Michael Yanovich:
Sorry my response to betadine was also meant to be funny. Guess I missed! >>>

NAhhh, it was funny now that I re-read it. It's hard to get sarcasm online.

<>>>>As for the pen changing sides, not sure, I didn't cut that piece. My guess? It moved a few times more and that part was cut for time.

It really is pretty hard to tell a cohesive story in an extremely specific timeframe. I mean, it can't be 1 frame (1/30th of a second) long or short when it's finished. Sometimes to get those last few extra seconds taken out of a show it comes down to tightening every spot you can. A process frequently referred to as "frame f***ing," because you're literally trying to make up anywhere from 10-20 seconds a few frames at a time. That's for all TV shows, obviously, not just this one.
Cool. thanks for the response.

Banzai

Guest

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Guest » August 5th, 2005, 2:26 am

Rick said>>>>(Oh yes, it has also created humor with the huge number of magicians that all know for a fact that camera tricks and stooges are the main methods for a large percentage of the effects.>>>

Oh, I don't know. I see it more as an attempt to define the difference between 'camera tricks' and 'tricks for a camera'. I see the former as a Bewitched episode, the latter as a perfectly viable method that uses the limitations and advantages of the medium for maximum effect. While these tricks could very well be done live, the method used may be totally different.

Banzai

User avatar
MaxNY
Posts: 1349
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Jeff McBride
Location: Warwick, New York
Contact:

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby MaxNY » August 5th, 2005, 4:31 am

Again, Farnsworth Bentley..The escape from the sunburn was ironic...the hell with the meathooks, the desert sun will kill ya!
---I have given examples of how a tightly edited show like this may hurt the craft. Please somebody give me reasons why MY "boat" may float. Criss might help sell magazines, but I'm not too sure why I should believe this helps the art of magic. The guys I have talked with, will watch...but use words like "cheesy".

User avatar
magicam
Posts: 908
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 8:40 pm

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby magicam » August 5th, 2005, 6:14 am

Michael Yanovich:

Thanks for taking precious time to respond to some of the ideas proposed on this thread. Looks like you only focused on mine (not my intent). As I pointed out, the idea behind those two suggestions was to blunt the accusation that camera trickery was at work, but it sounds like my ideas are, uh, rather unworkable (maybe even rather nave/stupid, but thanks for being tactful).

Rick Maue wrote in part:
Simply put, for those that know and understand how to market successfully, television shows such as these are pure gold. For those that do not, they will merely continue their on-line arguments.
What is successful marketing anyway? Getting on TV? Getting high ratings? You applaud Richard Kaufmans rising tide analogy, so your metric for successful marketing must be more than either of those two things, in which event, only time will tell if Criss shows are pure gold. Given the apparent disregard you have for folks here who dont seem to hold the same views as P.T. Murphy or Kaufman, its a pity that you didnt explain why such shows are pure gold. Its also a pity that you equate differences of opinion on the shows, their production, and their effect on magic in general with a lack of understanding of successful marketing. That approach seems to me an unfounded conceit.

Clay

P.T. Murphy
Posts: 182
Joined: April 21st, 2008, 3:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby P.T. Murphy » August 5th, 2005, 6:56 am

MaxNY please go back and watch your Doug Henning and David Copperfield specials. Some of that stuff was CHEEEEEZEEEE! And some of that editing, especially in Copperfield's case, is questionable. These guys are credited with turning things around. I remember watching a Copperfield show and being shocked at the nerve of him to cut between shots in the middle of a routine!

I don't think anybody will disagree with the cheese factor. MAYBE a 13 year old kid who is really intrigued and inspired by Angel will argue. I was a 13 year old watching Henning...in awe and very inspired...and I did not sense the CHEESE until much later. BUT Henning's secret weapon was his sincerity. Something that the magicians may NOT have picked up on right away. Henning really believed in what he was doing.

It is obvious that Criss has worked really hard to produce a good product. I still think his Metamorphosis and Interlude are the best interpretations of those effects I have seen. He is on to something. I don't think that it always comes across on TV. Like Henning I have a feeling his live shows are where he will SHINE.

Angel's acting skills are getting better. He is obviously working on his diction and his New YAWK dialect. He has a new look. The guy seems really genuine about getting his point across to the lay public.

As for "hurting the craft" there is NOTHING Angel can do...you can do...I can do to hurt the craft.

The CRAFT continues, like it always has for THOUSANDS of years.

With or without the cheese.

Magic ain't goin' anywhere anytime soon. Enjoy the ride.

P.S. I love the Genii Forum. You guys really post great conversations on here!
"Those who do not believe in magic
will never find it. " -Roald Dahl

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27056
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 5th, 2005, 8:13 am

A rising tide carries all boats.

When there is a successful magician on TV on a regular basis, magic is brought to the public's attention on a regular basis.

People are more likely to think about hiring a magician to work a private party.

Companies are more likely to hire magicians to work their venues.

And kids will see and be inspired by magic week after week after week. They are more likely to turn into little magicians and go to live shows (whoever happens to be playing) and purchase things from magic shops (Internet or brick and mortar) and buy books and subscribe to magazines.

A rising tide carries ALL boats.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Rick Maue
Posts: 115
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Rick Maue » August 5th, 2005, 10:25 am

Clay,

If you need an explanation as to why these shows are pure gold I will take a few minutes to pass along just a few minor points. The thoughts written below are based in many years of my successful real-world experiences, and they are not unfounded conceit as you stated. Instead, what follows is not only a sampling of what I was able to do for myself, but also an example of what I do as a consultant for other professional performers.

So why are television shows such as MindFreak pure gold for those that understand successful marketing? Well, there are far too many reasons to go into on this forum, but we will examine one area by discussing three basic steps in both sales and marketing.

Step One: Sell Yourself Simply put, people buy from people that they like. So, in essence, Criss sold himself to those with the money and the power to produce a television show that is, as of this writing, receiving very high ratingsand it is also receiving a very strong marketing push. But here is the point; each one of us now has to learn how to use all of that media exposure to increase our own business. And we do this by selling ourselves to our potential clients. It doesnt matter if they (or you) like Criss Angel or not, the key is that more and more people are beginning to talk about himand about magic. And that brings us to Step Two.

Step Two: Sell Your Company and/or Your Industry The key here is to demonstrate to your clients that magic is a viable product for their event. After all, there are a number of people out there that need to be convinced that a magician or a mentalist can benefit them. Whether those people are booking shows for colleges, private parties, sales conferences, planning a trade show, or anything else, they need to understand how Theatrical Deception is not only an option, but also a multi-faceted art form that is perfect for their audience. In other words, television shows from performers like Alain Nu, Chris Korn, and JB Benn are opening the doors a bit wider for other magiciansand it is our job to convey the message that magic is certainly viable for our clients events. And the aforementioned television performers certainly help to make the case for us because it is a fact that mass media finds magic to be appealing to a large enough audience that it is given network time, and it attracts advertisers.

But there is much more because the marketing door was kicked wide open a number of years back when David Blaine exploded onto the scene. He had network strength behind him, and it was one of the big three. Following his first show, a number of less-successful magicians sat back and bitched about his style, his look, his lack of talent and numerous other things. In short, they did not have the marketing sense to capitalize on the wonderful opportunity that was laid at their feet. But on the other hand, those with true marketing sense understood that when Blaine burst onto the scene, magic suddenly had a new persona that made advertisers (and the news media) salivate. The key once again was for each performer to convey that message to their potential clients and prove that the art of magic was indeed an option with huge appeal for their audiences.

And now, Criss Angel has kicked that door wide open for all of us once again, and like others before him (Blaine, P&T, etc) he has reminded the world that magic is not just for children, but also for adults. But some magicians will get hung up on his look, his style, his methods, or his artistic vision. All of those things do not matter for each one of us. Those that merely focus on those aspects do not have the marketing sense to make these shows work for them.

The pure gold is in the fact that Criss is the current persona that has opened the door and proved that magic is a very strong contender for the numerous events that many magicians are striving to book. If magical performances were not powerful and marketable items, there would certainly not be full-page ads running in Rolling Stone for MindFreak. In short, Criss Angel is currently defining Step Two, and he is selling our industry to each one of our potential clients.

Step Three: Sell Your Product and/or Service Simply put, this is where you close the deal. However, it is very important to understand that this final step is often the one that is misunderstood. The reason is that it is possible to sell your product without going through Step One and Step Two. But when that occurs, it simply means that you had little or no involvement with the actual marketing process. In other words, you may receive a booking from a person that simply needs to hire a magician for an event. Often times, the performer that is booked is interchangeable with a ton of other performers, and he, or she, is merely filling a void. Sure, the performer may do a good job and get rehired, but if you are a real marketing person, that is not enough.

Simply put, I never want a booking where someone merely says, I need a magician. (And to be honest, I no longer take those types of bookings.) Instead, I spent many years getting my clients to say, I need Rick Maue. One of the main reasons that I have been able to achieve this is that I properly executed Step One and Step Two on the road to Step Three.

I begin by getting the client to know, and understand, what I can personally do for themand how they benefit from my personal involvement (Step One). Then I get them to understand how magic itself can benefit them (Step Two, which is really where the mass media exposure comes into play). Only after those two steps do I discuss specific bookingsor in other words, market my actual product (Step Three).

My only message is that all of these shows are very valuable to any performer that truly understands marketing. That is all. As for sitting around and talking about whether or not we like the style, the effects, the methods, and the rest of those things, that is fine. After all, those things are certainly topics that can, and should, be discussed intelligently. But the discussions only matter if we apply our own vision to what we want to do as artists, and then boldly walk through the doors that have been opened up for each one of us. And we owe Criss Angel, Alain Nu, Chris Korn, JB Benn, David Blaine, Penn & Teller, and a number of other wonderful creators/performers a big thank you for clearing the path for the rest of us.

Success is there for the taking, but you have to reach out and grab it. These shows are pure gold for those that truly understand marketing.

In conclusion, I would respectfully disagree just a bit with Richard's comment that a rising tide carries ALL boats. In some cases it helps to sink the weaker ones. And that is exactly the way it should be.


Keep the change,
Rick Maue
Deceptions Unlimited

Guest

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Guest » August 5th, 2005, 11:48 am

Originally posted by Rick Maue:

In conclusion, I would respectfully disagree just a bit with Richard's comment that a rising tide carries ALL boats. In some cases it helps to sink the weaker ones. And that is exactly the way it should be.


Keep the change,
Rick Maue
Deceptions Unlimited [/QB]
AMEN! Criss' marketing of his show will mainly help Criss, and that's as it should be. As for magic as a hobby, that, too. As for performers...well...there may be a few clients who think *MAGIC* as a result of Mindfreak, but not all that many. Especially corporate clients. They're too skittish. Criss' image is too extreme for anyone else but Criss to benefit in a corporate sense.

Besides, those who have made their living as magicians will continue to do so with or without the current Flavor of the Month because their marketing does not depend on anything that happens on TV. Joel Bauer and Steve Cohen come immediately to mind.

Banzai

Rick Maue
Posts: 115
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Rick Maue » August 5th, 2005, 1:07 pm

Banzai,

I must respectfully disagree with you completely because you missed the entire point of my post when you said:

"As for performers...well...there may be a few clients who think *MAGIC* as a result of Mindfreak, but not all that many. Especially corporate clients. They're too skittish. Criss' image is too extreme for anyone else but Criss to benefit in a corporate sense."

You are making the most common mistake of those that do not truly understand marketing. Simply put, you are letting the client have the ball in his court by letting him think (and judge) what magic is, or is not. You can never do that if you want to be successful. You must always be in control. No real marketing expert would take the image of Criss Angel and try to duplicate it for any reason. You are far too concerned with his style, and as I said in my last post, that does not matter because that is not what you are selling.

What does matter is the ability of each performer to prove to their potential clients that magic itself is indeed a viable option. And this can be done by learning about the real numbers in regard to ratings, advertising (both for the show itself, and from sponsors during the broadcasts), earnings, budgets, and other such important elements. You job is to show that large organizations are willing to spend large amounts of money on magic because it has large appeal. Period. The look and/or the style of Criss Angel should have very little to do with what you present to your clients. You simply use his numbers (and his media exposure) to support the concept that magic has a certain level of popularity.

I want to quickly go back to your statement that there may be a few clients who think *MAGIC* as a result of Mindfreak, but not all that many. Especially corporate clients.

Remember, as I have already stated, the really good marketer does not to allow the potential client to "think" of what they have already seen. Unless the style fits their specific need, it should be of little or no concern. It should be a passing thought at best because, once again, Criss Angels style is not what you are selling. You are selling the popularity of the art form in general, and you use the numbers from shows like MindFreak to confirm your statements.

In other words, a strong marketer creates the images in the mind of the client. He does not allow the client to form his own image based on something that he has possibly already seen. In truth, the key is understanding the difference between being proactive, as opposed to reactive, in regard to marketing.

And as for corporate clients being too skittish I will simply say that I performed theatrical sances for corporate clients (many of which are Fortune 500 companies) for fifteen years. And I am not talking about mere entertainment at some social affair. I performed the sances at sales conferences in front of hundreds of people. In many cases, it is not what you are selling; it is how you sell it. You must then show the client how your vision relates to them. The key is to create your own product, and then you simply use those that have opened the doors ahead of you to help establish the appeal of the art form. That is what you should be marketing, not Criss Angel or anyone else. It is not about the flavor of the month. It is about the lasting appeal, and the marketing strength of our art formwhich is demonstrated by ratings, budgets, and other such numbers from those that have broken into the mass media.

To paraphrase the great Dunninger: For those that understand marketing, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, none will suffice." So, with that said, I am now off to more pressing issues. Take care everyone.


Keep the change,
Rick Maue
Deceptions Unlimited

Guest

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Guest » August 5th, 2005, 4:16 pm

I don't think many boats are being floated around these parts as I have yet to meet a single person who has even heard of Mr. Angels shows.
But then it's summer here in Seattle and most folk are staring up at that great Ol' ball of fire in the sky that we oh so rarely see in these parts instead of locking themselves in a dark room to stare at artifical light.
Maybe I'll hear from someone about them if they run these shows when it ain't sunny out.

Guest

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Guest » August 5th, 2005, 4:22 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rick Maue:
[QB] Banzai,

I must respectfully disagree with you completely because you missed the entire point of my post when you said:

"As for performers...well...there may be a few clients who think *MAGIC* as a result of Mindfreak, but not all that many. Especially corporate clients. They're too skittish. Criss' image is too extreme for anyone else but Criss to benefit in a corporate sense." >>>>>

My point was made in the context of the larger 'Rising Tide' theory put forth by someone else.

Thus, my statement; Mindfreak marketing will benefit Criss, due to whatever fame factor kicks in, but not many others. See? His "Q" will work for him, not me, or you, or you, or you, or you. That's as it should be. I'm surprised someone with your marketing savvy is unaware of that.

(Naturally, I'm speaking of performers. Shops and magazines stand to reap the whirlwind of Criss' work, and to them I say 'Go Get The Money!")


Banzai

Guest

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Guest » August 5th, 2005, 4:30 pm

Rick wrote>>> You are selling the popularity of the art form in general, and you use the numbers from shows like MindFreak to confirm your statements.>>>

MO! Abslutely NOT. I'm selling me, not "the art form in general." Coca Cola doesn't sell 'pop' or 'soda', it sells COKE. And I would never, EVER use Mindfreak's numbers. I use my own success to market myself.

I am my brand, not what I do.

Geez, Rick, that's Marketing 101.

Banzai

User avatar
NCMarsh
Posts: 1223
Joined: February 16th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Devant, Wonder, Richiardi, Benson, DeKolta, Teller, Harbin, Durham, Caveney, Ben, Hoy, Berglas, Marceau
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby NCMarsh » August 5th, 2005, 5:26 pm

Banzai,

You are completely (willfully?) misreading Rick.

He makes it clear in the first post that he is his own brand. He also makes the correct point that before a buyer is interested in a particular brand they need to be interested in that genre of product.

If I don't want to smoke, then I'm not going to be moved to buy Marlboro cigarettes -- no matter how strong their branding is. If I'm a tobacco company, and there isn't the political pressure there is now, I'm going to do everything I can to insure that the public thinks that smoking is sexy and cool. It is only from that foundation that I can build the image of my particular brand -- i.e. the rugged independence of the Marlboro Man.

I want customers to associate my products with the way that they imagine themselves to be. If they don't imagine themselves using this kind of product at all -- my particular branding means nothing.

This isn't much of an issue for traditional products and services. Soft drink companies don't have to sell me on the need to drink -- nature does that for them.

Magic is a whole other ball game. When you say the word "magician" VERY, VERY few people in the culture associate it with sophisticated, adult entertainment. "Andy" (magiccirclejerk.blogspot.com) did a casual survey where he asked a few of his aquaintances for the words they associate with "magician" -- the results are pretty informative.

Of course if you're doing your job, then after they see your work they will recognize that you offer engaging entertainment for adults. The reality is that, if you're creating your own market and pursuing work from people who didn't realize they could benefit from a magician (which is the way to make a real living at this) then you will often be calling/meeting with people who haven't seen you work; and you have to get their interest.

I just moved and have just finished a search for a steady gig in my new area. I had meetings at four places. Two dismissed the idea of a magician out of hand ("we don't have enough kids" and "I would be interested if this were a family place at a lower price-point.") Talking to guys with more experience than I, it sounds like I was lucky to have gotten a "yes" when I had only been dismissed out of hand twice in person.

Bottom line, it is a tough uphill climb to sell magic to many adults. Which is why so many of us do restaurant magic -- prospects get to see the product without having to be sold on it verbally.

Word of mouth and sales from people who have seen us are indispensable in our business particularly because the public has such a low impression of it.

The reality is that if you are doing magic for a living -- no matter how good your work is -- there are going to be times when you want to interest someone who hasn't seen you work. That means that they have to be interested in magic before they can be interested in you. Being able to point to places where it has succeeded with hip adults is a tremendous aid.

best,

N.
IllusionArtistry.com

Guest

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Guest » August 5th, 2005, 5:55 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nathan Coe Marsh:
[QB] Banzai,

You are completely (willfully?) misreading Rick.

He makes it clear in the first post that he is his own brand. He also makes the correct point that before a buyer is interested in a particular brand they need to be interested in that genre of product.

Magic is a whole other ball game. When you say the word "magician" VERY, VERY few people in the culture associate it with sophisticated, adult entertainment. "Andy" (magiccirclejerk.blogspot.com) did a casual survey where he asked a few of his aquaintances for the words they associate with "magician" -- the results are pretty informative.>>>>>>

NO, no, and again, no. I don't sell them "magic". I sell them me. They're already interested in entertainment, otherwise we wouldn't be talking. I sell them a special entertainment event provided by me.

I'm not "a magician', as far as they're concerned. There are a zillion of those. I'm the one-and-only ME. The word 'magic' appears nowhere in conjunction with my name. Why should it? If you want to know exactly WHAT I do, look at the video and call it whatever you like. Or better yet, call my extensive list of clients and ask them what they think.

Plus, why should I sell them on "magic", when I am SO much more important than the vehicle I use to entertain them? (And I'm saying this not from an ego standpoint, but from a marketing standpoint.) "Magic" they can resist by having preconceptions about, but when I'm talking about "me," I control the message. I control what they think of 'me', and therefore am unaffected by anything they pre-conceive about magic in general. I remove the pre-conception obstacle by ignoring it altogether.

I'm selling them an experience they can ONLY get by bringing me to their event, not 'a magic show.' Criss and his team understand this, that's why he, too, is avoiding the term 'magic show.' He's creating his own genre; "Mindfreak." And he's branding himself as Mindfreak's premier practitioner.

And THAT, dear frends, is good marketing.

Banzai

User avatar
magicam
Posts: 908
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 8:40 pm

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby magicam » August 5th, 2005, 6:37 pm

Rick: Many thanks for taking the time to elaborate. I think I understand your viewpoint better and retract the unfounded conceit comment Your marketing approach reminds me of the old line about diplomacy: diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your own way.

Reading the exchanges between Rick, Nathan, and Banzai, I wonder how far apart Banzai and Rick really are in marketing philosophy. The difference seems to be that Rick sees great marketing opportunity given Criss success, whereas Banzai is not so enthused about it. Other than that, as the posts have played out, Im having a difficult time discerning any real differences. Just my two cents.

Clay
Meminisse Magicam

P.S. Banzai, now that youve gotten your feet wet in this forum and engaged in substantive exchanges, you should really consider signing your real name to your posts.

User avatar
NCMarsh
Posts: 1223
Joined: February 16th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Devant, Wonder, Richiardi, Benson, DeKolta, Teller, Harbin, Durham, Caveney, Ben, Hoy, Berglas, Marceau
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby NCMarsh » August 5th, 2005, 6:55 pm

Banzai,

I think that the approach you're taking -- of selling yourself without attempting to categorize what you're offering -- is a perfectly legitimate option if it works for you. It is an option that we all, I think, use to a different extent; it sounded from Rick's post that he uses the phrase "theatrical deception" as a replacement for "magic" -- and I suspect that his reasons are similar to yours, personally, a press release of mine that is going out tommorow reads in part: "Indeed, Marsh has a taste for pushing the envelope of traditional magic. In order to make his work as memorable as possible, Marsh has chosen not to limit himself to the principles of magic he has carefully studied the methods that have been used by cardsharps, conmen, and even those psychics who have managed to fool scientists. This unique approach results in a very different experience for audiences." That copy doesn't go as far as you do, but it is an attempt to be independent of the cultural conceptions of "magic."
That said, Rick's points are still dead on target for those of us who do use the words "magician" and "magic" or any other verbal description of what we do.
If you are able to succeed selling yourself without classifying your work at all, then more power to you. There are, of course, limitations to this -- to say "they can always check my video" assumes that you're only going to deal with people who are already interested enough in you to invest time in your video. If that's your business model -- cool. Those of us with other business models -- particularly those who are pursuing new visions at new venues -- find it useful to be able to describe what we do because we are not always talking to someone who has enough interest, yet, to see what we do.
The point is that what Rick offers is a very workable suggestion -- with the necessary caveat (which it sounds from his writing that he strongly would agree with) -- that, in the end, you aren't selling selling an interchangeable commodity but your own distinct brand.

best,
N.
IllusionArtistry.com

Bill Duncan
Posts: 1639
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 11:33 pm

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Bill Duncan » August 5th, 2005, 9:41 pm

I'm pretty sure that anyone who is thinking about buying a magic show after seeing the Angel show isn't going to be too happy with split fans, Zombie, Hippity Hop Rabbits and Forgetful Freddie.

I'm also pretty sure that seeing Johnny Knoxville in the Dukes Of Hazard isn't going to make people want to see more "acting".

Guest

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Guest » August 6th, 2005, 12:47 am

Originally posted by Magicam:

P.S. Banzai, now that youve gotten your feet wet in this forum and engaged in substantive exchanges, you should really consider signing your real name to your posts. [/QB]
Thought about that. The reason I don't...and I hope you accept it...is precisely BECAUSE I control the branding and message that goes out attached to my name so carefully and precisely. This way, I can speak my mind freely without having to consider whether it's "on message." If that means that my opinions must be given an anonymity discount here, then I'll have to live with that.

Thanks for the thought, though.

Banzai

Guest

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Guest » September 13th, 2005, 11:20 am

I'm extremely disappointed.

Claiming that he never uses his abilities for his own personal gain when he's CLEARLY "gaining" by the simple act of HAVING A TV SERIES strikes an ingenuous note to me.

And keeping the car? Lame.

Also claiming that he wanted to find out what it was like to be blind? Disingenuous. If you want to find out what it's like to be blind, you have to BE UNABLE TO SEE. Also, you can no more know what it's like to be blind by temporarily putting on a blind fold than you can know what it's like to be black by putting on makeup.

You have to LIVE it to know it, otherwise, you're posing.

Banzai

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8704
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 13th, 2005, 12:36 pm

Originally posted by Banzai:
I'm extremely disappointed....And keeping the car? Lame.
I came away from that show with the feeling he was not really keeping the car and that the running voiceover was a narritive device, where the end of the story has the hero riding away etc... a sort of wink at the audience that is just a tv show and for entertainment.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Guest

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Guest » September 22nd, 2005, 10:12 am

Hello everyone, I've been reading what everone has to say in this forum, and I realize that you all are taking it in the wrong direction. This show isn't supposed to be a magic show.

One of the large growing trends is telekinesis and the power of the mind. Criss Angel is aiming at the group of people whom want this ability and whom are intrigued by this unknown phenomenon.

If you look up telekinesis or psychokinesis on the web, you'll find nearly a million pages. It's 'the trend of the day' which most youth are interested in.

To be blunt, Criss isn't aiming for looking like a magician, he's aiming to look like a 'mind freak' whom has mastered the art of mind over matter.

Thanks for listening!
Ciao,
Typhaire

Guest

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Guest » August 3rd, 2006, 3:54 am

Just happened to catch a re-run of Criss Angel doing "Ring in Ice Cube". I was not as impressed seeing Criss do it as I was seeing my student Thomas Meier perform it at F.I.S.M. (where he took first place for it a few years back). I figure if Mr. Angel would like any other ideas for his specials, insted of stealing them, he might want to just hire me so he can get them first hand.

Guest

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Guest » September 13th, 2007, 10:07 am

Originally posted by Michael Yanovich:
Magicam: I'll be happy to reply to a few things ...

Anyway I have read the thread, and there are some interesting ideas ... here are some things you said a while back, and my take on them.

[b]Invite a nationally-recognized investigative reporting team (like 60 Minutes) to do their own filming of a weekly show, and use their footage exclusively or quite substantially with the production footage.


First, a reminder that these are my personal opinions, and have nothing to do with the opinions of anyone else involved with the show. That said...

Would YOU allow an independent camera crew to shoot you doing a show? What about that color change you do that requires you to shift your body so that there's no one on your left hand side. Would you be OK with a cameraman shoving his way over there and zooming in at that time? Better yet, let your audience come up to you next time you perform and handle any prop they want at any time they want. Are you looking for exposure ala the Masked Magician? Or for camera coverage of a televised magic special?

Second, and on a more pragmatic level, I've worked on about half a dozen reality TV shows. Every single one of them has camera issues. This is all live and unscripted, and the cameras always miss key moments because, well, there's no way to know they're going to happen.

...

So magic show or dating show or Survivor show, the director has to make sure the cameras are doing their job. And once the director takes over, the fact that they were 20/20 or 60 Minutes camera operators becomes mute.

Or better yet, hand out hi-tech video cameras to members of the audience and compose the show entirely from their videos.

Hehehehe. Have you ever watched amateur footage? Mom and pop snapshots framed so that everyones' heads are cut off at the top? Just go watch a "user submission" tv show (America's Funniest Home Videos, Stupid Behavior Caught on Tape, etc). I've worked on those, too. The ones where there's a freaking PLANE CRASH and the idiot behind the camera is in a tight zoom on the tree the plane flew over. (Ever notice how much zooming amateurs do when they have a camcorder? In. Out. Zoom in. Tighter. Zoom out. I mean.. uh...wait, what just happened? Now watch professionals, who don't use a camera lens like a yo-yo.)

Years ago, I also worked at the largest public access station in the US. People who had taken training courses, who watched enough TV to know better, who worked on shows year after year... and I swear, 90% of them didn't know which end of a camera to point at a charging rhino. Getting good camera footage is freakin' HARD. Giving a dozen cameras to random spectators would result in a 11 shaky tapes with non stop zooms, bad framing, awful color, and huge amounts of grass and dirt on screen. TRUST ME. I've had to work with this crap. (By the way, the 12th camera wouldn't have any footage at all, as the spectator would have accidentally stopped rolling 3 seconds in.)

Not attacking your ideas, but I've had to deal with too much bad camera work over the past 15 years to encourage MORE of it.

That's all for now. Good night everyone! [/b]
Recently I've been able to watch some CA episodes.

Is it me or does the CA show now make good use of so-called spectator cams? Maybe it wasn't such a bad idea after all... :)

CHS

Guest

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Guest » September 13th, 2007, 4:16 pm

I just can't believe these guys have pumped out so much magic! You gotta sift thru alot of stone in order to find a Golden nugget. last week I finally sat down to a Golden Nugget, did anyone else catch the guitar string thru neck, ring swallowed, then found around the guitar string? That was pure magic! Cudos...

Brandon Hall
Posts: 375
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: North Hollywood, CA
Contact:

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Brandon Hall » September 14th, 2007, 8:31 am

I believe that is availabe As "Saw" by Sean Fields...someone correct me if I'm wrong. He shows it with a lifesvaer and a length of thread...
"Hope I Die Before I Get Old"
P. Townshend

Guest

Re: Mindfreak I and II

Postby Guest » September 15th, 2007, 5:33 pm

Dr. Evil, Thanks! Not that I was going to add it to my kid show, but I do wonder if he is creator of his illusions. I thought this one was original.


Return to “Buzz”