Busby Auction Catalog link

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erdnasephile
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Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby erdnasephile » July 14th, 2017, 6:41 am

Thanks to prodigy for announcing the catalog was out-- I thought that this auction might warrant a thread of it's own.

Here's the link to the pdf catalog: https://www.potterauctions.com/pdf/Catalog_051web.pdf

(The correspondence section about made me fall over backwards...esp pages 17 and 21 of the pdf--Wow--so much history--and possibly so many answers. I was a little surprised there weren't more cups. Should be an amazing auction.)

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erdnasephile
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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby erdnasephile » July 14th, 2017, 6:47 am

Just curious: It seems likely that most of the ephemera will be bought and squirreled away into private collections, never to see the light of day. However, if someone purchases a set of notebooks at auction, are there any legal restrictions on future publication?

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Joe Pecore
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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Joe Pecore » July 14th, 2017, 7:53 am

I believe the copyright of unpublished works (including letters) lasts for the life of the author plus 70 years and would belong the the estate or closet relatives after their death.
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Jack Shalom
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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Jack Shalom » July 14th, 2017, 7:55 am

Wow. Breathtaking.

If the copyright holders were generous enough to consider publication, it would keep Richard busy for at least another dozen decades.

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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 14th, 2017, 9:19 am

Regarding copyright notices: the rights would fall to the heirs of the original writers of the letters. The copyright law changed in 1978, and for most these the pre-1978 law would apply.
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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Bill Mullins » July 14th, 2017, 10:45 am

Paging Jim Riser.

If you look at lots 41 and 42, you can see the original tooling and dies for spinning the Paul Fox style cups. The dies include the beads. After you roll the metal of the cup down onto the beads, how the heck do you get the cup off the die? It looks as if the bead on the die would hold the cup at that point.

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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 14th, 2017, 2:02 pm

You can by the original tooling, but you would not have the right to make and sell the cups.
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erdnasephile
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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby erdnasephile » July 14th, 2017, 4:08 pm

Those are very interesting points regarding the copyright on correspondence. Does that mean that to write a column like Mike Caveney's in MAGIC, he would have had to get permission from each set of descendants to reproduce those letters or does it only apply if you are selling a facsimile or transcribed book?

I'm really hoping that whoever acquires these treasures allows magic historians to study them so that scholarly articles can be produced. I'd hate to see that history lost or hidden forever. (Although it has occurred to me that perhaps some well-heeled folks may be getting their cash ready to make sure some of this material remains exclusive.)

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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Jim Riser » July 14th, 2017, 4:09 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Paging Jim Riser.

If you look at lots 41 and 42, you can see the original tooling and dies for spinning the Paul Fox style cups. The dies include the beads. After you roll the metal of the cup down onto the beads, how the heck do you get the cup off the die? It looks as if the bead on the die would hold the cup at that point.


Hi Bill,
You rang?

Now that is a set of tooling I would like to own and add to my accumulation of steel spinning chucks. But the guys who actually make things and get their hands dirty can not afford to buy such items. So I will be stuck making my own.

As to your question, Bill, there are two sizes of tooling used.
Jim

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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby David Moore » July 14th, 2017, 5:01 pm

I'm thinking that a lot of the Vernon stuff came from Ray Grismer.

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Joe Pecore
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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Joe Pecore » July 14th, 2017, 5:08 pm

erdnasephile wrote:Those are very interesting points regarding the copyright on correspondence. Does that mean that to write a column like Mike Caveney's in MAGIC, he would have had to get permission from each set of descendants to reproduce those letters or does it only apply if you are selling a facsimile or transcribed book?


I believe that all works published in the United States before January 1, 1923, are in the public domain.
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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Bill Mullins » July 14th, 2017, 6:16 pm

And even for letters written after that date, what Mike does to them is so transformative that the copying is classic Fair Use.

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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby prodigy » July 17th, 2017, 9:04 pm

Being the controversial character that Busby was, I can imagine there would be plenty of heated conversations amongst the various letters/correspondence.

I was also quite curious whether his stolen copy of the original Braue Notebooks would be up in this auction. I've been wanting to get my hands on a copy for a while, and I missed my chance at one of the potter auctions some time last year.

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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Leonard Hevia » July 17th, 2017, 10:53 pm

The first 8 published volumes of The Braue Notebooks are up for bids in Lot 0142. The original notebooks are not in this auction. Their whereabouts...?

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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby prodigy » July 17th, 2017, 11:44 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:The first 8 published volumes of The Braue Notebooks are up for bids in Lot 0142. The original notebooks are not in this auction. Their whereabouts...?


I noticed.

Here are the 2 listings of the "original" Braue Notebooks from a while back:

https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/42 ... -notebooks (Sold for $1000)

https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/46 ... -notebooks (Sold for $275)

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Brad Jeffers
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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Brad Jeffers » July 18th, 2017, 1:43 am

Joe Pecore wrote:I believe that all works published in the United States before January 1, 1923, are in the public domain.
Bill Mullins wrote:And even for letters written after that date, what Mike does to them is so transformative that the copying is classic Fair Use.
I love the Classic Correspondence books, but what does Mike do to the letters that is so transformative?
Nothing.
Sure, he adds a lot of extra historical information and commentary which is great, but as to the letters themselves, he prints verbatum transcripts of them along with complete copies of the actual letters.
I don't see how the Fair Use doctrine would apply.

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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Jim Riser » July 18th, 2017, 2:42 am

Bill Mullins wrote:
Paging Jim Riser.

If you look at lots 41 and 42, you can see the original tooling and dies for spinning the Paul Fox style cups. The dies include the beads. After you roll the metal of the cup down onto the beads, how the heck do you get the cup off the die? It looks as if the bead on the die would hold the cup at that point.

Bill;
I really need to expand on my response to your good question a few days ago. Look at item #42 - the chick cup spinning tools. There are 4 items shown. The item on the left is really not a required item. The second from the left is the main spinning chuck. The cup would be spun over this steel chuck and the mouth bead rolled. The cup at this stage would have been essentially made. This chuck was unscrewed from the lathe and the chuck with the three raised rings screwed onto the lathe. Now this chuck is actually smaller in diameter than the main chuck. The roller tool was mounted in a special drag tool or scissor tool type of handle. The side beads were rolled onto the spun cup. Since this chuck is smaller than the inside of the cup, it can be slipped out of the cup after the side beads are rolled.

There are several different ways to put on these side beads - this is one of those methods. I normally use another method. Gary Animal used a different method still.

Now look at item #41. Ignore the part on the left. The main spinning chuck is the third item. The smaller chuck is the second item. Note that there is no roller tool. Busby could have lost it, never received it, or the side beads could have been applied free hand by the spinner.

Hopefully this better explains the mystery.
Jim

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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Q. Kumber » July 18th, 2017, 6:45 am

Brad Jeffers wrote:
Joe Pecore wrote:I believe that all works published in the United States before January 1, 1923, are in the public domain.
Bill Mullins wrote:And even for letters written after that date, what Mike does to them is so transformative that the copying is classic Fair Use.
I love the Classic Correspondence books, but what does Mike do to the letters that is so transformative?
Nothing.
Sure, he adds a lot of extra historical information and commentary which is great, but as to the letters themselves, he prints verbatum transcripts of them along with complete copies of the actual letters.
I don't see how the Fair Use doctrine would apply.


I'd imagine it is because he is now the legal owner, the letters having been originally donated or sold by the estates of the deceased.

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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 18th, 2017, 11:18 am

There is no issue, fair use or otherwise, with the letters Mike is printing in Classic Correspondence. The original authors are long dead, the heirs have had decades to step forward (since Mike has been doing this in MAGIC for I can't even count how many years) and they have not.

There is nothing salacious or criminal related in the letters.

There is no "dramatic work" (a legal term) contained within any of the letters.

In short, there is nothing in the letters an heir would have grounds with which to contest publication.
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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Bill Mullins » July 18th, 2017, 11:37 am

Brad Jeffers wrote:
Joe Pecore wrote:I believe that all works published in the United States before January 1, 1923, are in the public domain.
Bill Mullins wrote:And even for letters written after that date, what Mike does to them is so transformative that the copying is classic Fair Use.
I love the Classic Correspondence books, but what does Mike do to the letters that is so transformative?
Nothing.
Sure, he adds a lot of extra historical information and commentary which is great, but as to the letters themselves, he prints verbatum transcripts of them along with complete copies of the actual letters.
I don't see how the Fair Use doctrine would apply.


Richard's answer is the important one. Practically speaking, he is correct. And he is the one taking the risk by publishing them.

But to get all pedantic on you . . . .

I was speaking a little hastily there. For "fair use", there are four factors (plus consideration of whether the work is "transformative", so this is sometimes considered a fifth factor) to be considered. Mike is copying the works for commentary and criticism, in a scholarly/research context, and they have essentially no commercial value other than their value as objects (so his publication of them does not displace any other sales). This sort of usage is usually considered to be Fair Use. Whether or not the publication is transformative is a much more difficult question (it may well be; the letters were originally written for communication between magicians, and Mike publishes them for the purpose of opening a window into a long-gone era).

Q. Kumber wrote:I'd imagine it is because he is now the legal owner, the letters having been originally donated or sold by the estates of the deceased.

Ownership of the physical documents has nothing to do with it. Owning a manuscript doesn't mean that you have any rights to the content.

Jim Riser -- thanks so much for the detailed explanation. I had intended to follow up with you, probably off line. It makes sense now.

FWIW, both Liveauctioneers.com and Bidsquare.com have the auction listed by individual lots. These sites typically show more detailed photographs (and more of them) than Gabe's PDF catalogs, so are worth checking out.

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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby erdnasephile » July 19th, 2017, 8:08 pm

Thanks for those links, Bill--the pictures are very helpful (Darn! I would have gone for that Tabman table if not for the bumped corner!)

With regards to that Frank Csuri treasure trove, I came across this statement in Busby's Thaumaturgist, #22, Nov 1992-Jan 1993:

"Last Christmas...nearly a dozen large cartons arrived from Frank, unannounced. These boxes contained almost 300 pounds of paper comprising Frank's complete literary output--his private notes and compilations of effects by Dai Vernon, Charlie Miller, Faucett Ross, another complete manuscript on the work of Jacob Daley, and much more...Frank urged me to stop being so close-mouthed about his gift. Frank wants this on record: The six manuscripts that circulated are but a small sample of his output. He wants it known that several other manuscripts exist that did not circulate--each made up in a single copy...And we both want this known: Several years ago, with Frank's approval and cooperation, I received formal consent to publish from all parties involved." (pg 3)

Obviously, I can't vouch for the veracity of those remarks, but I guess these additional published works never came to pass from Busby. Looking forward to seeing how much all that Csuri stuff is going to go for.

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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Jim Riser » July 19th, 2017, 11:53 pm

[quote="erdnasephile"]Thanks for those links, Bill--the pictures are very helpful (Darn! I would have gone for that Tabman table if not for the bumped corner!)

If I wanted the Tabby table, I would bevel all four corners and apply purfling strips to cover and protect the bevels. It would, once again, be serviceable and attractive. Do not give up on good stuff!
Jim

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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Q. Kumber » July 20th, 2017, 6:24 am

I know of two companies who have large stocks of old photos, images, postcards etc. that they rent out or get royalties from. They would not be the original owners, but now the legal owners of the items.

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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Steve Mills » August 10th, 2017, 7:45 pm

I certainly don't begrudge Gabe anything he can make out of this auction, but it seems the buyer fee is 25% on many, if not most, items. I have no experience here, as my only experience is coins and, generally, they are considerably less than that.

Is this the norm for magic?
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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 10th, 2017, 11:07 pm

In the real world, auction houses take 15% to 25% depending on the specific items and auction. It's not out of line. A lot of work and expense goes into putting on an auction.
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Re: Busby Auction Catalog link

Postby Steve Mills » August 11th, 2017, 10:49 am

No problem with it, just wondering about the norm.

It's hard to remember that when you bid $400, you are paying $500. Makes a difference to a poor guy like me with a limited budget.

Just for comparison, Heritage charges a buyers premium of 17.5% and a variable sellers premium of approximately 15% - 30% for coins. I would think auctioning magic items requires more presale prep, research etc. than coins. All else being equal, I would think that knocking 40% or so off auction prices would be a reasonable approach to valuing items.
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