IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

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CraigMitchell
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IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby CraigMitchell » May 12th, 2017, 1:55 pm

For those not following Facebook - Jade has made some very serious accusations against the person responsible for providing technical services at the IBM SAM convention.

https://www.facebook.com/jade.tjin/post ... nref=story

As a result of the online scrutiny - IBM-SAM Combined Convention LLC have issued the below statement:

https://www.ibmsam2017.com/single-post/ ... BM-SAM-LLC

"Because of recent posts on Facebook the 2017 IBM-SAM Combined Convention LLC, wants to clarify some misconceptions which may exist.

1. The 2017 IBM-SAM Combined Convention LLC is a Limited Liability Company which is independent from the International Brotherhood of Magicians and the Society of American Magicians. The LLC is solely responsible for producing the 2017 IBM-SAM Combined Convention.

2. The LLC categorically condemns sexual harassment in the magic community and will not tolerate any such behavior during the convention.

3. Likewise, the LLC believes in due process and that every individual is entitled to the presumption of innocence unless and until there has been an appropriate investigation and an opportunity for all sides to give their perspective concerning serious allegations of sexual harassment.

4. Nevertheless, it has been agreed between Steven Kline and the 2017 IBM-SAM Combined Convention LLC that it is in the best interests of all involved that he withdraw and will not be providing his services at the 2017 IBM-SAM Combined Convention.

2017 IBM-SAM Combined Convention LLC"

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby performer » May 12th, 2017, 3:39 pm

Although we all love gossip I do agree with point 3 above. It all seems a bit one sided. I would like to see some evidence first. He may well be guilty but they are right in being fair about it and having an "appropriate investigation". Presumption of innocence you know. It would be nice to hear it from his side.

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 12th, 2017, 3:49 pm

His website appears to have been taken down.
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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby performer » May 12th, 2017, 5:43 pm

I understand the legal expression for that is "consciousness of guilt".

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby erdnasephile » May 13th, 2017, 11:13 am

Sad situation--glad to see that something was done.

Official statement from Oscar Munoz of the IBM: http://www.magician.org/blog/statement- ... blogid=380

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 13th, 2017, 12:12 pm

He was already hired. The question is whether they were able to fire him without paying him off to go away.
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erdnasephile
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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby erdnasephile » May 14th, 2017, 10:39 am

As an FYI: S.A.M. has an official response (from Jeff Sikora, S.A.M. National President; Steven A. Spence, Ethics Chair, S.A.M. and Mark Weidhaas, S.A.M. Conference Executive) posted in the comments section of Jade's Facebook post.

(It was posted by Mark Weidhaas about half-way through the comment section.)

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby Bill Mullins » May 14th, 2017, 12:43 pm

Crap like this has been going on forever. Other communities such as skeptics, comics fans, gamers, science fiction fandom, and others have all had to deal with public incidents of harassment and sexual assault in recent years, and it's surprising that magic has taken until now to have to deal with it in such a public way.

Publicly announced Codes of Conduct are part and parcel of science fiction conventions nowadays, so much so that big name authors won't attend unless they exist and are implemented by con sponsors. I wouldn't be surprised if, in a few years, this was the norm for magic conventions as well.

I'm glad that the heads of the IBM and SAM dealt with this quickly, supporting Jade and taking her seriously. I'm troubled that the LLC allowed it to get this far, and that the IBM and SAM allowed the LLC to do so.

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby performer » May 14th, 2017, 8:29 pm

The alleged incident happened three years ago and it seems to me that this fuss has taken rather a long time to come to the surface. One wonders why it did not come to the boil sooner. Now simply because of one facebook post it indeed has with all sorts of people taking sides without knowing all the facts. . Now I am not saying this didn't happen and my psychic vibe is that it probably did. But psychic vibes are not evidence and so far I haven't seen much in the way of that. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything. That does not mean it is true. And neither does it mean that it is untrue.

Sorry to be contrary but fair is fair. Since a man's livelihood is likely to be affected by this hoo-haa I think it is only fair we hear both sides of the story. So far I find it all one sided. I would like Mr Kline to tell us HIS side of the story. There are all sorts of explanations he could come up with. He might say he accidentally touched her, he might say the incident did not happen and there are other reasons we don't know about why the accusation is made, he might say he was drunk, he might say Satan tempted him, he might say he mistook her for someone else whom he knows well......give me time and I bet I could come up with some other scenarios for him if he needs them. And it sounds like he might.

All I am saying is that we haven't heard HIS side of it yet and he shouldn't be excoriated until we do. I do hope he comes on here and explains himself.

So far I have seen no evidence the incident even happened. I am sure it did but my being sure is not EVIDENCE. I do see on that thread a rather well known and rather loud mouthed chap who is always railing against psychics demanding that we psychic people provide evidence about our claims while he himself is perfectly happy to accept the lady's claims himself without evidence. No wonder he always loses his battles against psychics.

All I am asking is EVIDENCE. Not hearsay, not speculation, not accusations, not moral hypocrisy, not sermonising. EVIDENCE!

So where is it?
\

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby Bill Mullins » May 14th, 2017, 9:35 pm

performer wrote: Since a man's livelihood is likely to be affected by this hoo-haa I think it is only fair we hear both sides of the story. So far I find it all one sided.


If you are in a position to hire Kline, get his side first.

But the issue at hand is if the IBM and SAM should hire him (or, rather, if their agent should). And it's pretty clear that the leadership of both, and the members of both, don't think they should.

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby performer » May 14th, 2017, 9:49 pm

I didn't say that I thought that they didn't think they should. I am stating that they should think before they think they shouldn't. And it appears that they didn't. Think that is. Before they thought they shouldn't. Don't you think so?

Besides what they think or what their members think isn't what I think. And I always think the best. Don't you think so? Well, I think so. But then I would, wouldn't I? Think so that is.

Again, so far it is all one sided. I want to hear the other side of it. After all , even Doctor Crippen got a fair trial before they hanged him. Fair is fair you know. Don't you think that is fair?

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby MagicbyAlfred » May 14th, 2017, 9:50 pm

Innocent until proven guilty. It is a presumption accorded even to those charged with murder where the police have sworn eyewitness evidence. There are even many people who have been convicted in a court of law, of murder or rape, by a jury of their peers, and spent many years in prison, unjustly incarcerated, before they were ultimately exonerated by DNA evidence through the beneficent efforts of others, for example, the Innocence Project.

As Performer states, we have heard one side of the story, and it may well be the truth, but we don't know that for a fact - if we ever will. I commend him for his comments and his sense of fairness. Obviously, sexual harassment or abuse should never be tolerated. But since this has now been purposefully placed into the court of public opinion, I would like to hear Mr. Kline's side of the story, and if he has a defense, to hear what it is. That he may be innocent still remains a logical possibility... A lawsuit could have been brought for battery, and the legal system, albeit not perfect, would seem the proper forum to air and resolve the issue. And again, the allegations may be gospel truth, but if they are not, or if there's more to it than what we have heard so far, then due to the far reaching tentacles of social media, this individual's reputation has been damaged, and his livelihood already impacted...

Did SAM and IBM really act "quickly"? It would not seem so based on this comment from the Facebook post in question: "Both the IBM and SAM are aware of his unacceptable behavior and have continued to do business with this man, to my dismay and utter disappointment." It appears that only after that post did they take action. I honestly don't know what their motives were in terminating their relationship with Mr. Kline. They may well have been noble and sincere ones. I'm not saying they took action so as to avoid the nasty scourge of bad publicity or to limit liability - but "LLC" does stand for a limited liability corporation.

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby performer » May 14th, 2017, 10:11 pm

The lady mentions she had spoken to her attorney. It seems that as a result of that conversation nothing very much could be done. One would assume this was because there was no evidence. An allegation is just that. An allegation.

My gut feeling is that it is true. And it seems that everyone else's gut feeling agrees with mine. But gut feelings are not EVIDENCE. You can't condemn someone because of gut feeling. Or politics. Or just because you like and trust someone. You have to have PROOF.

I will tell you what might help convince me. It would not be enough but it would help. Has the gentleman in question a history of this kind of behavior? Surely by now with all this fuss other women would come forward to remark on the matter if it had happened to them? Anyone?

A defence counsel would rip apart the fact that nothing was said about this for three years. If it was so traumatic why wasn't it mentioned at the time?
Now I don't condone the behaviour if it actually happened. I just don't like everyone ganging up on one person without hearing both sides. Once we hear the other side of the matter we can make up our own minds.

I expect because of all this fuss a lot of his work for magic events will have gone down the drain. He may well take legal action himself to clear his name. I have no idea if the allegations are true. I suspect they are but I want to be fair.

Before jumping on a kneejerk bandwaggon of condemnation which might lead to an unjustified witch hunt I am merely asking to hear the other side of the story. I don't think that is an unreasonable request.

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby performer » May 14th, 2017, 10:29 pm

I don't even know who he is so I thought I would look him up. He seems to have been deemed respectable enough in the past to have a cover page in some magic magazine or other anyway:

http://www.mum-magazine.com/past-issues/43-dec-2015

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby Bill Mullins » May 15th, 2017, 1:18 am

If I were in a position where I had to decide if someone should or should not work at an event I'm responsible for, "innocent or guilty" is the wrong mindset. I would think instead, "does this person enhance the quality of the attendees' experience?" And if any of the attendees are worried that this person might be a creeper and grope or leer at or otherwise harass them, even if it has never been proven to a legal standard that this person has done so in the past, then I don't hire them. A bad reputation, deserved or not, is enough reason not to have them as a part of my event.

I'm sure it sucks to be falsely accused. But it also sucks that many women won't participate in male-dominated communities because when a guy is a boor (or worse) to them, and they point it out, the initial and overwhelming reaction is "there's two sides to every story," "but he's so good at [admired skill or talent] and that's not how he normally acts," "that can't be true, he's a good guy, trust me I know him", "oh, that's just him being him, it wasn't such a big deal, you need to ignore it and move on", or to have their story referred to as "hoo-hah" (as Mark did above).

I often see laments about Magic being a community that is getting smaller, that kids aren't joining the IBM and SAM, that attendance at national conventions isn't what it could be. You are watching a reason that half of the population won't darken the door of a Ring meeting. (and by "reason", I don't just mean whatever it was that Kline has been accused of, but the way that he is defended, and Jade is belittled, here and elsewhere.)

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby performer » May 15th, 2017, 4:28 am

In that case anyone can accuse anyone several years later without any evidence just because they have a personal grudge against them. And in magic there are plenty of grudges to go around. Come to think of it I have a few myself. Let me think who I can accuse of something or other--it doesn't have to be true.

I have the deepest sympathy for Jade if the allegations are true. I am not sure what "inappropriately touched" means of course. It could be something relatively minor or something worse. However, I do get a sense that it pales in comparison with ruining a man's business so much he had to take his website down. Interfering with someone's livelihood is a horrendous thing to do. After all this is not just one event. The word is spreading and after all this I am quite sure that he will never be hired by any magic organisation again and it will possibly affect his other business too. Hell hath no fury than a woman inappropriately touched and quite right too. If there is evidence, that is. So where is it?

Jade has indicated a small amount of evidence. It isn't much but it is something. It seems according to her that Steve confessed his awful sins to another magician who has ratted him out. So who is the other magician? Where is the ratting out?

Sure if I were in charge of some event or other I wouldn't hire Steve for "just in case" reasons. In the same way I shuffle the cards after doing the pass for "just in case" reasons. But I am not part of a large organisation and I can be as selfish as I want. When you are in charge of something as big as the SAM or IBM you can't make individual decisions on your own unless of course your name is Derek Lever. You are responsible to your executive board and other people. You need evidence.

So where is it? And why three years after the event? Again I suspect it is true and that is why I wouldn't hire him myself. But that is because like most humans I am selfish. However, since I am NOT hiring him I can afford to be objective and fair. The IBM or SAM or whoever the hell is organising this thing should hold a proper enquiry into the matter with witnesses etc; and let Steve tell his side of the story. So far his silence speaks against him which makes him guilty by default. I would like to hear his side of the story. It may be a complete pack of lies and if it is then I am sure he will be torn apart. And even if it isn't he will still be torn apart.

I would just like to hear from him. I am herewith inviting him here (providing Richard approves of course) to come on here and tell HIS side of the story.

At least I don't know him so I can be unbiased. When we know someone personally all sorts of biases can hamper our objectivity. I knew an amateur magician once (now passed away) who became very high up in the corridors of power and in fact became a member of the British parliament and later the House of Lords. He was accused of far, far worse that Steve has been accused of and moreover there was plenty of evidence that he did it. He would have been prosecuted if he had lived. Yet to this day, I cling to the belief, however illogical, that he was completely innocent. Purely because I knew him well. I just can't imagine him doing what he was accused of. That is what bias does.

I would just like a lack of bias in this particular matter and some actual proven facts put before us all. So what are they? If it can be proven that Mr Kline is a bit iffy then by all means I will be happy to condemn him too. Mind you I would like to know the degree of iffiness too. I am innocent in the ways of the world and have no idea what "inappropriately touched" means. Alas I have led a sheltered life.

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby Bob Farmer » May 15th, 2017, 6:00 am

I know Jade. I believe her. That's all the proof I need.

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby Bill Mullins » May 15th, 2017, 8:58 am

performer wrote:At least I don't know him so I can be unbiased.


You continue to defend Kline, even though Oscar Munoz, Joe Turner, and Shawn Farquhar -- all of whom have specific knowledge of the facts -- have endorsed and supported Jade. You continue to diminish Jade, by calling her account "hoo-hah". You have a bias, you show it with each post, and you are part of the problem. The next time a woman is harassed at a magic convention (and it will happen again, sooner rather than later), the reactions of people like you will make it harder for her to step forward.

You keep wanting details. Kinda pervy right there, Mark. Jade doesn't owe you or anyone else details.

Women making false accusations of sexual harassment against men is not a problem in magic. Magicians acting creepy and perverted is a well-documented problem in magic. Stop acting like there is some sort of equivalency here.

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Re: IBM SAM / Jade serious accusations

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 15th, 2017, 7:51 pm

This topic is now closed.
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