Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 4770
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby erdnasephile » December 24th, 2016, 10:17 am

There are likely lots of different reasons, and perhaps some would even take issue with the premise.

However, Sara Crasson, in the January, 2017 MUM, relates a rather horrifying tale, which would make me never want to set foot in a magic club again.

Obviously (hopefullly?) this sort of thing is the exception, but I've been witness to more than one instance of shabby, creepy treatment of women at the hands of compeers. This sort of thing needs to stop.

Joe Mckay
Posts: 2026
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 6:56 am
Favorite Magician: Lubor Fiedler
Location: Durham, England

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Joe Mckay » December 24th, 2016, 10:48 am

Magic seems to appeal more to men than women.

There is only one female creator in magic I really admire.

And she was born a man...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Rogers

Brilliant creator - one of the very best.

observer
Posts: 342
Joined: August 31st, 2014, 5:32 am
Favorite Magician: Harry Kellar - Charlie Miller - Paul Rosini - Jay Marshall
Location: Chicago

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby observer » December 24th, 2016, 1:14 pm

Yeah. One woman has one bad experience at one magic club. That certainly explains why more women don't go to magic clubs. Thanks for clearing that up.

User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 4770
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby erdnasephile » December 24th, 2016, 2:16 pm

Point taken---one bad experience certainly doesn't explain a phenomenon. However, incidents like these may be an example of why some people who don't fit the typical magic club demographic may not feel welcome.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27056
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 24th, 2016, 2:27 pm

Plenty of women involved in magic have had bad experiences at magic clubs, shops, and conventions.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Brad Henderson
Posts: 4547
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Brad Henderson » December 24th, 2016, 2:57 pm

I recall one member here who always referred to any visiting women as luscious or delectable - to their faces.

and then there is the incessant picking on them as volunteers because as we all know, only women and children are capable of being selected as volunteers.

I don't have to read the article to tell you that no matter what she said, this wasn't an isolated case.

performer
Posts: 3508
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby performer » December 24th, 2016, 8:02 pm

They do get picked on an awful lot as volunteers, don't they? I know one lady who used to get picked on to help at every magic meeting. And at every single club lecture. I know she was uncomfortable about it. She doesn't show up any more. I am not saying this is the reason but if it is I don't blame her. It can be a pain if you feel picked out all the time.

I still remember reading in a very, very, very old book on magic that getting a lady to help you on stage was "unpardonable". I was very amused to read this. I wish I could remember the title of the book and the author . I vaguely remember it was quite a classic book too. The author must be turning in his grave now if he could see all the "unpardonable" volunteers on stage nowadays.

I always pick the person in the audience who I think would be the most suitable and don't even consider gender in the equation. It doesn't even cross my mind.

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 2388
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 24th, 2016, 9:24 pm

It is again a question of applied psychology. That which is generally impressive or important to men is often not so to women. Hopefully it doesn't sound "sexist", but they are wired differently, and more beings of emotion and of the heart than men are.

I emphasize that I am speaking in generalities here, but women generally love routines like the multiplying rabbits and The Twins, particularly when presented as love stories, and are also drawn to tricks with a fortune telling theme. Conversely, it is primarily men who are drawn to and/or impressed with tricks involving a gambling theme or impressive sleight of hand.

When performing, a good rule of thumb is: Know your rabbit (so to speak).

performer
Posts: 3508
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby performer » December 24th, 2016, 9:34 pm

I find that women react very enthusiastically to close up magic. Even more so than men. I have also found Vernon's (or at least I think it was Vernon) dictum that women do not like card tricks to be quite inaccurate. They react very well to them if they are done correctly so I have no idea where that idea came from. However, I don't think they are overly enamored to join magicians on stage although I may be wrong here. Despite it being "unpardonable" I have on quite a few occasions used lady volunteers on stage but I think on balance I have used men more. Probably a gut feeling by instinct more than a deliberate policy.

Richard Paddon
Posts: 12
Joined: August 29th, 2009, 7:44 pm

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Richard Paddon » December 24th, 2016, 11:43 pm

My wife is a rare breed. She loves good, professional close-up & parlour magic and is first to volunteer to assist, especially for card magic. Robyn has attended many lectures & performances. Some magicians she has assisted, in no particular order:

Daryl
Alain Nu
Chuck Fayne
John Carney
David Williamson
Banachek
Kostya Kimlet
Tom Mullica
Johnny Thompson
Jon Armstrong
David Regal
Michael Ammar
Lee Asher
Aldo Colombini
Pit Hartling
The Flicking Fingers
Boris Wild
Jason Alexander
Doc Eason
Danny Archer
Jay Sankey
Gregory Wilson
Lennart Green
Richard Pinner
Marc Oberon
Richard Webster

Brad Henderson
Posts: 4547
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Brad Henderson » December 25th, 2016, 12:11 am

the common thinking is females more natural emote and thereby make better volunteers

let's assume this is true.

then would the more impactful memory for the audience be seeing a man emote/react even if it's equal to that of he female?

try putting the bunnies in a man's hand. if he doesn't react, it might not be because he's a man.

my experience is the reaction can be even more powerful and memorable when using a man for these moments.

now, that's not to say all men are ideal - but it's equally true not all women are ideal.

so the idea that we shouldn't use a man for a certain trick, unless the physical aspects of that trick would be innaprioriate due to gender, is nonsense.

what it really boils down to is that magic is about power and most magicians are scared of power. I once watched an entire illusion show without a single moment of magic - puzzles galore - but at no time was there magic. Magicians under cut the power of their magic with jokes. They self depreciate beyond the point of being endearing or modest.

in short - most magicians are powerless.

so when they pick a volunteer they pick someone who doesn't scare them - someone who (socially) can be seen as less threatening or powerful.

sexist as it may be, that means most magicians will choose the woman or child even if the physical requirements of the trick are innaprioriate for either.

oh - and some are delusional and think that doing a trick for the girl will get them laid.

User avatar
Brian Douglas
Posts: 110
Joined: November 19th, 2016, 10:34 am
Favorite Magician: Max Maven
Location: Middle East
Contact:

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Brian Douglas » December 25th, 2016, 4:18 am

performer wrote:... I always pick the person in the audience who I think would be the most suitable and don't even consider gender in the equation. It doesn't even cross my mind.



Agreed. I base my volunteers upon reactions while doing strolling prior to the show. Fred and I compare notes before we start and 'randomly' choose people from the audience.

Too many guys choose the girls as they think they will make nice window dressing.

performer
Posts: 3508
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby performer » December 25th, 2016, 5:13 am

I never care about the window dressing. In fact it can be a distraction. At least on stage. For close up I do find women laugh more readily and react to humour more. But laughter creates laughter. If a woman laughs it will have a contagious effect and cause the man to laugh too. I am careful however to bring everyone into the amusement, both men and women. I am not in favour of working to one person only. In truth I use the happiest person there whether male or female. And if I see someone looking a bit miserable or reserved I subtly target them to make them happier. I never ignore hecklers like I see sometimes advised and in fact welcome them providing they are not too rambunctious. At least they are paying attention and if you work in a shrewd manner they can often become your best boosters.

For the sponge ball trick it is far better to use a woman. Men react well to it also but women as a general rule are far better. I once mentioned this to an iconic Irish broadcaster and said I was a little puzzled why they reacted so strongly to this particular trick. He responded, "Oh, it is the testicular element!" I have no idea what on earth he meant. I must find out one day.

performer
Posts: 3508
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby performer » December 25th, 2016, 5:24 am

Brad's comments about power are interesting and thought provoking. I personally try to project a LACK of power when doing close up magic. The obvious exception is a svengali pitch or trade show situation. However, for impromptu work I prefer to let the people underestimate me and then I go in for the kill. I could do this a lot better in my younger days because the illusion of powerlessness was more prevalent then. Too much "power" can make the people resent you on a subconscious level. Gently does it and suddenly they realise you had the power all along while at first they thought THEY had it!

The stage has different rules and possibly more formal close up magic. However, when performing impromptu I find the less powerful you appear to be the more powerful it turns out to be in the end.

As for picking a child because they are less threatening I think the opposite is true!

Jack Shalom
Posts: 1368
Joined: February 7th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Brooklyn NY

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Jack Shalom » December 25th, 2016, 10:04 am

I thought Dani DaOrtiz's comments on spectators in his recent At the Table lecture were really interesting.

He says he *creates* the spectators. If you don't understand what he means by that, it's worth looking at the lecture.

I.M. Magician
Posts: 1123
Joined: August 19th, 2013, 10:49 pm
Favorite Magician: All of the very best!
Location: Magicville

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby I.M. Magician » December 25th, 2016, 10:16 am

I am happy to report that at the SAM assembly I belong to, women are treated very well. At least I have not witnessed the "caveman" mentality there.

Because I don't remember ever having a female customer in the magic shop I worked in, I find it very interesting in a positive way watching female magicians perform. I think it's terrific that there are women interested in performing magic. Why wouldn't there be? We had two girls who belong to SYM perform at our Holiday SAM meeting last year and both of them were terrific!

observer
Posts: 342
Joined: August 31st, 2014, 5:32 am
Favorite Magician: Harry Kellar - Charlie Miller - Paul Rosini - Jay Marshall
Location: Chicago

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby observer » December 25th, 2016, 3:17 pm

These are not Victorian times, and women are not delicate little fragile flowers who need to be sheltered from all that is crude or offensive.

performer
Posts: 3508
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby performer » December 25th, 2016, 3:27 pm

Maybe they don't but I bloody do. I detest crude or offensive magic whether performed for men or for women. I find it downright disgusting and the SECOND a performer indulges in that is the very SECOND he becomes a bad magician.

User avatar
Brian Douglas
Posts: 110
Joined: November 19th, 2016, 10:34 am
Favorite Magician: Max Maven
Location: Middle East
Contact:

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Brian Douglas » December 25th, 2016, 3:29 pm

The silk to bra springs to mind...

performer
Posts: 3508
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby performer » December 25th, 2016, 3:30 pm

I do not approve. Quite disgraceful.

User avatar
Brian Douglas
Posts: 110
Joined: November 19th, 2016, 10:34 am
Favorite Magician: Max Maven
Location: Middle East
Contact:

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Brian Douglas » December 25th, 2016, 3:50 pm

Agreed. I was discussing this subject with some Airmen just a short time ago.

I did some magic for them and taught them some basic card tricks.

I stressed that you never want to embarrass your volunteers and if anyone has to be the buffoon let it be yourself.

Getting a laugh at the expense of another is just a low act.

User avatar
Tom Stone
Posts: 1521
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Tom Stone » December 25th, 2016, 4:05 pm

observer wrote:These are not Victorian times, and women are not delicate little fragile flowers who need to be sheltered from all that is crude or offensive.

Maybe not. But most of the female magicians I know have a sizeable collection of unwanted d*ck pics. The amount in my collection is zero. How many in your collection?
Since we apparently send pics like that to females in the business and not to the men, it seems we men are the fragile flowers that are sheltered from things crude and offensive.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27056
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 25th, 2016, 4:09 pm

I think the women in our craft have to be made of stern stuff to deal with the leering men at local clubs and conventions.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 2388
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 25th, 2016, 4:40 pm

PERFORMER WROTE: "At least on stage. For close up I do find women laugh more readily and react to humour more...
For the sponge ball trick it is far better to use a woman. Men react well to it also but women as a general rule are far better...

I agree. Here's an example of why I love to perform for women, especially the sponge bunnies.
https://youtu.be/jVjLHcz9w1w

User avatar
Brian Douglas
Posts: 110
Joined: November 19th, 2016, 10:34 am
Favorite Magician: Max Maven
Location: Middle East
Contact:

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Brian Douglas » December 25th, 2016, 5:20 pm

Tom Stone wrote:
observer wrote:These are not Victorian times, and women are not delicate little fragile flowers who need to be sheltered from all that is crude or offensive.

Maybe not. But most of the female magicians I know have a sizeable collection of unwanted d*ck pics. The amount in my collection is zero. How many in your collection?
Since we apparently send pics like that to females in the business and not to the men, it seems we men are the fragile flowers that are sheltered from things crude and offensive.



Ok, now I'm confused. Are we sending d*ck picks to Tom or not?

I don't want to be labeled as a sexist and I'm trying very hard to fit in and make the contributions that my skill level will support...

performer
Posts: 3508
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby performer » December 25th, 2016, 5:26 pm

I have led a sheltered life and wish to change the prevailing subject very rapidly. I liked Alfred's sponge rabbits and the way he involves the ladies and brings them into it. And of course the rabbits have a bit of an advantage since they are slightly less prone to you tube exposure than the balls. With regard to the point that women react better to the balls I do find that most performers use women for this trick. However, here is an exception with Eugene Burger who certainly creates a very good reaction at the finale of the trick where he does use a man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uoQQNXiqjs

performer
Posts: 3508
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby performer » December 25th, 2016, 5:41 pm

Here is another example of performing the sponge balls to women, this time at a trade show. I have posted this before but there are a couple of things I never mentioned. Believe it or not these ladies had already seen me do it. Or most of it anyway. You would never realise it from their reaction though. The truth is that a magician I know came along just when I was doing it and I realised this would be a good opportunity to get my whole trade show act on camera so I paused, gave my phone to him and asked him to record it which he kindly did. However, I knew it would take him some time to adjust things so I filled in by doing the dotty spots trick first to give him time to do this. And then I repeated the sponge ball trick. Note the reaction is just as good the second time as it was the first time even though they had already seen it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNrvn4XWGWc

But you might like this better because of the superb camera work. Working in the street:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3-OHSFV5S4

User avatar
Tom Stone
Posts: 1521
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Tom Stone » December 26th, 2016, 1:42 am

There are two threads running here. How we treat those within our fold, and whether laypeople enjoy magic performances.

On the latter; I helped out with the website programming during the 6-7 years Magic Bar in Stockholm existed, and had access to all the Google Analytics statistics. The demographic data consistently told that 60-64% of the website visitors were female.

performer
Posts: 3508
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby performer » December 26th, 2016, 5:50 am

Tom. That is very interesting indeed. Did the magicians do much in the way of card tricks out of pure curiosity? I find that women like watching magic--they just don't feel drawn to doing it. The evidence is obvious. I estimate only about one in ten people who perform magic are female. That is the REAL reason you don't see them in magic clubs! They just aren't that interested in it. I will say that the tiny few I have seen over the years do tend to be better (on average) than the men.

Brad Henderson
Posts: 4547
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Brad Henderson » December 26th, 2016, 7:49 am

I have taught magic to young people for over 27 years. I would say for me the interest is at least equal with perhaps even more girls interested in magic when given a opportunity to learn it.

User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 4770
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby erdnasephile » December 26th, 2016, 9:34 am

Brad Henderson wrote:I have taught magic to young people for over 27 years. I would say for me the interest is at least equal with perhaps even more girls interested in magic when given a opportunity to learn it.


Brad: I suspect that while the initial interest may be inherent, the fact that girls/women stick with you as students has much to do with the way you treat them as well (which is to your credit).

performer
Posts: 3508
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby performer » December 26th, 2016, 10:31 am

This thread has got me curious. I really must exert myself to find that book where it was stated that to invite a woman on stage was "unpardonable". I am now getting a feeling that the book in question isn't quite as old as I first thought. I am also trying to rack my brains or more accurately my memory to recall if magicians from my younger days would commonly invite lady volunteers up to help. And you know something? It could be my imagination but I don't think they did. I know I didn't but this was an instinctive thing rather a deliberate policy. In more recent years I have occasionally used a woman volunteer but in general don't do much of it. I think I know instinctively they prefer to stay where they are.

As I am typing a thought has just occurred to me. I have seen Paul Daniels performing several times live on stage. Maybe I am imagining it but I don't think so. I don't remember him ever getting a woman volunteer on stage. Not once.

Come to think of it many, many people don't like to come up on stage to help. I know I don't. I might even refuse no matter how insistent the performer was getting the audience to applaud me and all that.

And that reminds me of something else. Years and years and years ago I worked at the Ritz Theatre Club in Brighouse, Yorkshire. I got some guy up to help and he wanted to have a drink with me afterwards. He told me an interesting tale. It seemed that Al Koran had performed at the same venue some time before. The chap said "I got him banned from this club" Naturally I asked what happened. It seems that Koran asked him to take a dictionary. He refused. You would have to understand the Northern Working Mens Club atmosphere to understand why he refused. And Yorkshire is a most peculiar place anyway. So of course Koran tried someone else who also refused! And he tried a third person but alas a domino effect had sunk in and there was a third refusal! Nobody wanted to take his bloody dictionary!

But this is where it got nasty. Al was so miffed at the refusals so he was silly enough to make insulting remarks to the refusers including the chap who was telling me the story. This guy was so mortally offended that he went to the club management to complain and supposedly Koran was banned from ever appearing there again.

Not that this has anything to do with reluctance of women volunteers but magicians should bear in mind that many, if not most people just don't feel comfortable coming on stage, ESPECIALLY to help magicians, as they often treat their volunteers in a demeaning manner instead of guests in your home. And the stage IS a performer's home.

Jack Shalom
Posts: 1368
Joined: February 7th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Brooklyn NY

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Jack Shalom » December 26th, 2016, 10:34 am

Brad Henderson wrote:I have taught magic to young people for over 27 years. I would say for me the interest is at least equal with perhaps even more girls interested in magic when given a opportunity to learn it.


Brad just curious. Is that true for you through all age groups? My experience has been that as many girls as boys are interested, up to about 8th grade, and then interest drops off decidedly with girls in the high school years.

User avatar
Tom Stone
Posts: 1521
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Tom Stone » December 26th, 2016, 10:57 am

performer wrote:Tom. That is very interesting indeed. Did the magicians do much in the way of card tricks out of pure curiosity?

There were a fair amount of cards in closeup, less on stage.
I find that women like watching magic--they just don't feel drawn to doing it. The evidence is obvious. I estimate only about one in ten people who perform magic are female. That is the REAL reason you don't see them in magic clubs! They just aren't that interested in it.

I'm not too sure about that. It seems that when the learning process relies on being socially inept, a recluse, and practicing alone in front of a mirror - then yes, very few women seem attracted to it. But I've found that when you learn in groups, like in a course or similar, then the gender balance is more 50-50.

Brad Henderson
Posts: 4547
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Brad Henderson » December 26th, 2016, 12:04 pm

Jack Shalom wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:I have taught magic to young people for over 27 years. I would say for me the interest is at least equal with perhaps even more girls interested in magic when given a opportunity to learn it.


Brad just curious. Is that true for you through all age groups? My experience has been that as many girls as boys are interested, up to about 8th grade, and then interest drops off decidedly with girls in the high school years.


here is my full Observation: if I'm at a new venue and the kids haven't yet seen me show but are asked if they want to learn magic, I get a bigger turn out from young kids. after seeing what I do and being given the opportunity to learn magic from me, my biggest draw us from older kids with at least an equal number of girls as well as boys.

I have even spoken with groups about this and it seems that they don't always have the most positive impression of magicians and assuming it may be a class led by someone like they have seen before, they opt out, so only little kids show up.

but the short answer is, some of my most popular and in demand classes are those for older teens, boys and girls.

having said that, this has always been an audience with whom I have personally had good experiences.

the conclusion then I would draw is that interest is the same between genders however experiences tend to cause that interest to shift over time.

I know many of the girls in my classes mention that they never thought they could learn magic before having had the opportunity to work with me.

performer
Posts: 3508
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby performer » December 26th, 2016, 1:35 pm

Well, it seems at any rate that even if there is initial interest the women don't follow through with it. If they did there would be a hell of a lot more female magicians around. It seems obvious to me that they are vastly outnumbered by men. One would have to be blind not to notice it. I don't think my estimate of one out of ten is far off.

I find the few that I do see appear to be pretty good. I don't remember seeing a bad one although I suppose I must have done at some point. I can certainly remember seeing lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of atrociously bad male magicians though.

Steve Mills
Posts: 374
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Saint Charles, IL

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby Steve Mills » December 26th, 2016, 2:31 pm

Could it be because men insist on beating to death boring, insignificant crap?"

performer
Posts: 3508
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Why more women don't go to magic clubs

Postby performer » December 26th, 2016, 2:57 pm

I suspect it is because women understand showmanship and deception better than men. Oh, and an intuitive knowledge of human nature. I think that last attribute is severely underestimated by performers. How can you entertain people if you don't know how their minds work?


Return to “Buzz”