Under the Topic "I Needed Someone to Actually Tell Me This"?

[Richard Kaufman]

Yes, it's true. Psychics are a scam! Duh.

In today's New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/29/nyreg ... v=top-news

Brief excerpt:

A commissioner asked Ms. Mitchell how she predicted futures.

“It was just going by what they would give you,” she said. “It’s all a scam. It’s by their demeanor. I want to write a book about how Gypsies scam people out of their money.”

“You don’t think there’s any legitimate psychics out there?” she was asked.

“If they are taking your money,” she said, “they are not for real.”

Ms. Mitchell, who does not appear to be related to either of the two Sylvia Mitchells, said that she had no intention of returning to fortunetelling. A parole commissioner reminded her that they had heard that before. Ms. Mitchell had been convicted of grand larceny in 2007 under similar circumstances, and the board had granted her parole several months later.

“We didn’t predict your future correctly last time, did we?” a commissioner asked.

“I guess not,” she replied.

[performer]

No. I beg to differ. NOT all psychics are scammers. The types of people in that article are certainly but they do NOT represent the entire industry. Many of us are sincere, compassionate people who charge reasonable prices and try to help. We can actually do a lot of good for people. I certain can. But I am not the only one.

[P.T.Widdle]

Many of us are sincere, compassionate people who charge reasonable prices

$35 for a ten minute palm reading is reasonable?

[observer]

Many of us are sincere, compassionate people who charge reasonable prices

$35 for a ten minute palm reading is reasonable?

"Rates for the DJ industry vary greatly, ranging from $350 to over $5000, with an average of $1250 for a 4-hour booking."


www.mysoundmastersdj.com

[Brad Henderson]

$35 will get you a 20 minute chair massage at an airport. Seems reasonable for a reading to me.

[performer]

Many of us are sincere, compassionate people who charge reasonable prices

$35 for a ten minute palm reading is reasonable?

I had a psychic vibe that Widdle would be here shortly. No doubt he is chattering about my own price at a psychic fair for a palm reading.

Yes. Of course $35 is perfectly reasonable for 10 minutes although sometimes if I am not too rushed with people waiting I will even extend things to 15 minutes.

Let me put it in perspective for you. Let me work something out while I am typing. $35 for 10 minutes means $70 for 20 minutes. That means $140 for 40 minutes. Would you agree that I worked it out right?

Now think of the average children's entertainer. A 40 minute show is pretty standard. However, I can assure you that if a kid show entertainer were to charge a mere $140 for a 40 minute show other kid show workers would say he was undercharging. Fees for kid show magicians run from $200 (low level) to up to $500.

What do you think a lawyer charges for 40 minutes? Or a Doctor? Or a psychiatrist? Or even Randi for a 40 minute speech?

So do stop talking nonsense, Widdle there's a good chap.

[P.T.Widdle]

“If they are taking your money,” she said, “they are not for real.”

If you have a large and legible sign that reads, "FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY" then yes, you can go ahead and charge whatever you want, although I still say even for "entertainment," the rate stinks.

[performer]

Anyway I do very few readings at $35. 75% of my readings at a psychic fair are 20 to 30 minutes affairs for $70. And I am on the lower end of things. I would say $80 is about average. $100 may be a bit on the high side for a 30 minute reading but by no means uncommon. It should also be borne in mind that the prices at US fairs are considerably cheaper and I can assure you that US psychic fairs are not a terribly profitable venture and nobody is making a fortune. In Canada the situation is quite different and up here the fairs are much more profitable.

If business is brisk then I am forced to cut my time down to 20 minutes because people are waiting. If business is slower then I can take my time and give the person what they need.

This is how I word my prices. I tell them that the palm is $35 and it is more of a character analysis although it will tell the future in a general sense. The tarot is more powerful for specific events coming up. That is $70. The special offer is that if they have the Tarot done then they get the palm free.

Of course the real reason is that I personally find it very difficult to read the tarot without reading the palm first. I can do it but it presents a lot more difficulty. The palm tells me all about the person and that makes it easier to read the tarot.

[performer]

“If they are taking your money,” she said, “they are not for real.”

If you have a large and legible sign that reads, "FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY" then yes, you can go ahead and charge whatever you want, although I still say even for "entertainment," the rate stinks.

No. If they are taking their money the person that said that (no doubt to get a lower sentence) is the one that is not real.

Poor old Widdle knows nothing about the psychic business. I do therefore think as I keep mentioning I am the obvious one to ask. So ask and it will be given unto ye. I know all, see all, and will tell all.

And no. You don't have to have a sign that says "For Entertainment Only". The psychics don't like it and the clients don't like it although many use something like that. I have something better than a sign. Of course a lot depends on what jurisdiction you live. Laws are different in different places. In some parts of Canada you actually have to have a licence to be a psychic. I used to have one for Winnipeg and I vaguely remember one for Calgary. It is not required in Toronto.

[P.T.Widdle]

The crooks shown in the article are just the "bad side" of a legitimate and helpful "industry," is that your contention? By way of comparison, are there any ""sincere, compassionate" gamblers?

[performer]

What on earth has gambling got to do with the psychic business? Do clarify what you are talking about. You are getting nearly as bad as Jonathon Townsend.

[P.T.Widdle]

The point is, a card cheat is a card cheat, whether he's working New York City big money or a small-town game.

[P.T.Widdle]

Many of us are sincere, compassionate people who charge reasonable prices and try to help. We can actually do a lot of good for people.

That sounds like something the crooks in the article would say (before they got busted).

[performer]

Then you should have said "card cheat" shouldn't you? Not all gamblers are card cheats you know. And not all psychics are frauds either.

You don't know a damn thing about this do you? I swear Richard started this topic because he knew it would create some excitement.

Do you even know what goes on at a psychic fair? Have you ever been to one? I have not only been to but exhibited at many hundreds. What would you like to know? You have a chance to talk to someone active in the field. I suggest you take it if you wish to be better informed.

[P.T.Widdle]

This bears repeating:

“You don’t think there’s any legitimate psychics out there?” she was asked.

“If they are taking your money,” she said, “they are not for real.”

as does this:

Yes, it's true. Psychics are a scam! Duh.

A "psychic fair." I just threw up in my mouth a little.

[performer]

Widdle. Let me educate and enlighten you because I find it quite unbearable that you are talking such nonsense. First those people in the newspaper are ostracised by the psychic community. They are gyspy psychics and use deceptive fraudulent methods to scam money out of people. They are banned from psychic fairs and if one of them somehow manages to sneak in as an exhibitor the other psychics get very upset and complain like hell to the promoter and to each other. Oddly enough gyspy psyhics seem to do very badly at psychic fairs even though some of their display materials are quite beautiful.

The gypsy psychics are so evil that if business is bad they will sell their own children. They are not representative of the psychic business as a whole and I can assure you the practitioners that I know are quite disgusted at them because it gives the more genuine psychics a bad name.

The vast majority of people I know who do readings genuinely believe in what they do. They are compassionate and even naive souls who try to help. In fact they are too naive for their own good sometimes. But they are NOT fraudulent! You may think they are deluded but that is not the same as fraudulent.

If you are going to talk about this methinks it would be a good idea to bone up a bit on these matters and find out EXACTLY what goes on. I will tell you one thing. If you decided to go undercover and pose as a psychic for a couple of years and work the psychic fairs just to find out what is really going on you would be gravely disappointed. You will get quite a shock to find that every single psychic you meet knows nothing about fraud of any kind and you will not hear a single word among themselves about it.

Trickery is frowned on at psychic fairs and any mentalist that tries to get a booth by showing promoters mentalism tricks will be shown the door very quickly. In fact I know a rather famous two person mental act in Canada who tried to get a booth at a psychic fair by doing some sort of bill divination. The promoters were gravely displeased at the matter and would not allow them space. They could see they were being shown a trick and were very disapproving.

So you really need to get your facts straight you know. Fraud is the exception rather than the rule. It isn't necessary anyway if you know your field.

[performer]

Anyway to educate poor old Widdle a trifle better on these matters of spirituality I shall post now a video of a psychic fair so you can all see what goes on. You will see a glimpse of me and my banner if you look carefully especially at the beginning of the clip.

Observe the sincerity of the psychics in the video. Some are less sincere than the others but I am not going to tell you which ones. Use your own judgement. Anyway enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZpRR20ibKs

[Joe Mckay]

Of course being psychic is nonsense.

But so are a lot of other things. Most visits to the doctor offer nothing more than reassurance, and the placebo effect is the most effective treatment for most minor aliments.

Stock market advice? Mostly [censored].

Psychotherapy? See above.

Depression pills? See above.

And then there is religion. Even if you believe in a religion - you have to admit that all the other religions you don't believe in are probably doing some kind of disservice to the congregation.

So if some rubes want to see a psychic. I don't think there is any harm done. At least in the grand scheme of things. I work with some women who had a one on one session with a psychic once. And they were very impressed. I don't think it did them any harm.

I remember TA Waters arguing a similar thing in 'Mind, Myth and Magick'. When he spoke about the comfort a psychic can bring to some naïve people who would not feel comfortable talking to a priest or a psychotherapist.

A Spanish girl I know took a lot of comfort from a visit she paid to a psychic in order to get over a bad break-up (one she spent about 7 years obsessing over).

So I think these things can offer some value to people. Even if I would never dream of selling such BS myself.

There is a demand for such hokum - and magicians are as likely as atheists to ever convince a true believer out of their misguided beliefs. It can happen but it is so rare as to barely be worth the bother.

The best we can hope is that more and more people learn critical thinking skills from a young age. But even that comes naturally more to some than others.

[performer]

With all due respect to Joe it is not complete nonsense. Not the way I do it anyway. There is a metaphysical aspect to it that would be hard to clarify. A spiritual aspect. There are things I do for the client that they don't even know about. Spiritual things. Metaphysical things. I don't have to do them. Nobody knows that I am doing them except me. But I know that if I do them the reading will be sharper and the client will derive more benefit.

Sceptics and magicians who know little about this work regard it all as some kind of trick. They are wrong. I do not think it wise for a psychic to be too immersed in wooly gobblydegook nonsense but they don't have to be fake either. The best combination is to be spiritually aware but at the same time to be very street wise. Nobody knows human nature better than a svengali pitchman. But nobody knows the spiritual side of things better than someone who has the life experience to understand suffering.

You need both to be a good psychic.

[P.T.Widdle]

But they are NOT fraudulent! You may think they are deluded but that is not the same as fraudulent.

Deluded is believing a crystal has healing benefits. Fraudulent is selling a table full of healing crystals at a...(sorry, withholding vomit in my mouth)...psychic fair.

[Brad Henderson]

Widdle, would you say the same is true of bible salesmen and the speakers who come to churches and sell their books and tapes? What about all of those online courses to improve your marketing and business? Tony Robbins? Wayne dryer?

[performer]

I am afraid poor old Widdle is talking nonsense as usual. Crystals DO heal! Why is a matter of debate. Unbelievers like himself would say it was the placebo effect and the more spiritually inclined would say it was something else but the bottom line is healing so there is no fraud involved

As they say in magic-it is the effect that counts.

[P.T.Widdle]

Brad, I cannot comment on the Bible salesmen because we don't get into religion here on this forum (along with politics, etc.). However, I would categorize your other examples as frauds, to be sure.

But we are talking about psychics here. And what I find amusing is how Mark distances himself (and his "industry" friends) from the horrible "gypsy" psychic crooks in this article. Mark, there but for the grace of God...

[I.M. Magician]

Although I consider this topic to be a delicate one and something I usually avoid like the plague, I am going to interject my thoughts.

If someone offers others something which makes them feel better (they benefit in some way) and does not cause harm of any kind, then I think it's okay.

On the other hand, if someone offers something which is deceitful or harmful, then it's certainly not okay.

So, I find this topic to be cut and dry. Either it's okay or not depending on the outcome. When you go past my offered guidelines, it gets messy and is no longer based on logic or what some would call common sense. Then, you have disagreements.

Does it really matter what someone's opinion is regarding that which is being offered? For me, it's not opinion that's important but the outcome of the actions.

So there's my two cents. If you feel the need to attack me, please do so gently. I'm somewhat delicate.

[I.M. Magician]

Here is a somewhat related story below.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-se ... ar-BBmcjD9

[performer]

I suspected Widdle was on the parole board!

Oddly enough I do think psychics should be made illegal. All except me of course.

[Brad Henderson]

Brad, I cannot comment on the Bible salesmen because we don't get into religion here on this forum (along with politics, etc.). ...

coward.

skeptics will rail against the poor old lady who looks into her tea cup, but are too afraid to open their mouths when real destruction and manipulation is in front of them.

[performer]

Brad, I cannot comment on the Bible salesmen because we don't get into religion here on this forum (along with politics, etc.). However, I would categorize your other examples as frauds, to be sure.

But we are talking about psychics here. And what I find amusing is how Mark distances himself (and his "industry" friends) from the horrible "gypsy" psychic crooks in this article. Mark, there but for the grace of God...

I do wish Widdle would stop talking nonsense about things he knows nothing about. Only about ten per cent of psychics are fraudulent gypsy types. Admittedly far too many but it is not a regulated industry. However that leaves ninety per cent left that are NOT fraudulent in the slightest.

Are ALL cops bad apples because a minority of them abuse their authority?

Or are all skeptics demented because that mentally Ill bunch on the JREF forum are? Oh, ignore my last sentence.It weakens my case.

[performer]

Now let me tell you a story. The wife of a very respected member of this forum used to help me at the psychic fairs. She would act as a kind of secretary to arrange appointments when I was busy with clients.

We travelled from one side of the country to the other doing this.

One day after a particularly stressful reading I asked her, "Is this right what we are doing? It is so hard to help these people"

She replied without hesitation,"Of course it is right. I wouldn't work for you if you were doing anything wrong. You help these people greatly. I had a woman ten minutes ago saying "that man saved my marriage".I hear people all the time saying how much you have helped them in their lives"

The secret is to treat the clients with compassion and kindness.

I can assure Widdle I sleep well at night.

[MagicbyAlfred]

I turned down an opportunity to be on the Ouija Board of Directors - I just couldn't see any future in it...

[performer]

I do not approve of Ouija boards. I advise my clients to burn them.

[MagicbyAlfred]

i KNEW you were going to say that...

[performer]

Perhaps you should try the psychic business then. I think your personality would suit it. And of course anything to annoy Widdle.

This might annoy him even more with a bit of luck. However, I think it is of interest.

http://www.blogto.com/sports_play/2014/ ... chic_fair/

The first photograph is of Eddie Dijohn who in his day was one of the best flea circus operators. He has appeared on Letterman and the Paul Daniels show. Now he does psychic fairs.

The second photograph is of an even more illustrious psychic of my acquaintance whom I have known for a long time. Please note the write up underneath which refers to card tricks and remarks about "the Irish version of Chinese Numerology".

Incidentally a point that puzzles magicians and others who do not understand the psychic business is how I can get away with card tricks at a psychic fair and why I claim it actually gets me more business. In fact if I didn't have svengali decks to sell at the fairs it would be far harder for me to attract clients. If anyone wishes to know the psychology behind it just let me know and I will explain it. Most clients at the psychic fairs know I am a magician and it doesn't make the blindest bit of difference.

However, I DON'T recommend mentalism at a psychic fair under any circumstances. Sponge balls are quite acceptable however. Counter intuitive though it may be.