Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

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erdnasephile
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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby erdnasephile » July 30th, 2014, 12:42 pm

IM: Yes--that's a fine idea!

To riff on this topic some more: I'd much rather see a convention overbooked than overlong and underbooked.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby mrgoat » July 30th, 2014, 12:45 pm

brianarudolph wrote:If it only was that easy, Mr. G. I tried that before my post.

I called my bank, but because I used their "payment plan" and authorized payments as they were billed in December, February and April, the bank is telling me that there is little that they can do besides open a fraud case - something that is very hard to prove in this case since I authorized multiple individual payments that were months apart. It apparently also doesn't help that I used a debit card, despite the fact that each of these was processed as a credit transaction.

Still, one would think there has to be some recourse here. I'm going to wait a day and call the bank again to see if I can get a different rep to help me.


Yeah, I said if you used a "credit card" it would have been easy.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby I.M. Magician » July 30th, 2014, 1:01 pm

I agree with you Erdnasephile. No point in going to a convention to be bored.

When there is a lull, attendees tend to gravitate to the dealer room. Although that can be lots of fun (and expensive), that should not be a replacement for lectures and other activities. I see a magic convention as a potpourri of learning, socializing, being entertained, and hopefully making both some purchases and new friends.

I haven't been to a magic convention for around 40 years (no kidding) so I am out of touch concerning how they are these days except for what I hear and read.

In 1968, I was at a magic shop when I was told that there was a magic convention just a few blocks away. They told me that, because I was a kid, I can just walk in and check it out. I did and till this day, have the fondest memories of that experience. I was surrounded by magicians doing and talking magic. WOW! I was in heaven...

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby Brad Henderson » July 30th, 2014, 1:13 pm

the problem with magic conventions is that they are inherently passive experiences - you watch a lecture, you watch a show. There are are seldom active experiences in which the attendees are engaged beyond that of spectator or consumer.

The networking hangout aspect while part of a convention are ancillary to the paid activities unless they are structured in some capacities.

Mystery School was a great exception. Not only was it great fun but we saw real improvement among the participants - not just the acquisition of shiny new toys.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby erdnasephile » July 30th, 2014, 1:49 pm

I imagine that Fechter's and 31 Faces North are great exceptions as well. But maybe the greatness of those events has more to do with the quality of the attendees, than the planned events.

Personally, I think the type of magic gathering I'd love to be a part of would be to get 10 to 12 people together agree to kick in $200 to $300 each and get a top pro to do a day long teaching workshop for us. If we could pull that off several times a year, I think would be really useful. (I think I read about some group like that in one of the magazines once.)

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby Dustin Stinett » July 30th, 2014, 2:30 pm

Some fascinating comments being made here, and that is what I hoped for (not that I’m trying to waylay the original thread—but that has been beat to death and I think that this is more interesting).

Some of the thoughts are exactly what I was thinking.

For example, focused breakout events. REALLY focused.

The best learning experiences I have ever had are with John Carney. Everyone is expected to perform a trick and everyone is going to be critiqued (by John and the group). That one will be subjected to that will scare away 99-percent of the people.

So what will they do? Go see Michael Ammar lecture (again) which is always fun and always a fine experience (with a shiny new object to buy). But the serious people are with Carney.

Or maybe (at the same time) another one-percent is working with Johnny Thompson on how to best prepare a tux jacket for producing doves (and then some technique to go with it).

In another room, Max Maven is holding court with mentalists, talking about deeper techniques with the promise that not one trick will be taught. That will keep a LOT of people away.

David Kaye’s room would have to be bigger given the number of kids’ magicians, but maybe his talk will not be about tricks and performing, but how to maximize your potential in that marketplace. BORING stuff to everyone but the serious professional looking to make a living out of doing tricks for brats.

These are the kinds of things I am always thinking/wondering about.

Brad is absolutely right: conventions are a passive experience and, frankly, the majority of attendees like it that way. But there are some who will eschew another lecture by Daryl to focus on THEIR magic with someone like John Carney.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby Dustin Stinett » July 30th, 2014, 2:39 pm

erdnasephile wrote:Personally, I think the type of magic gathering I'd love to be a part of would be to get 10 to 12 people together agree to kick in $200 to $300 each and get a top pro to do a day long teaching workshop for us. If we could pull that off several times a year, I think would be really useful. (I think I read about some group like that in one of the magazines once.)

I was a member of the original group which was started by John Zander (you read about it in MAGIC). There were ten of us and it didn't cost as much as you said. It was usually between $25 and $50. (Which makes for a nice Sunday afternoon for a performer/lecturer.)

We had Caveney, Carney, , Dill, Nash, a bunch of people. I think Martin Lewis was our first if memory serves. I remember that he killed us all with a card force right out of Royal Road. That's when I discovered what an idiot I really am.

It was terrific at first, but doing it once a month became too much for me. Had it been once a quarter (or less), I would have kept my spot. It's also possible that it would not have burned out, which it ultimately did.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby PickaCard » July 30th, 2014, 2:56 pm

I will be attending the next Genii Bash and very much looking forward to it.

From what I recall reading about the last one, it sounded like a regular convention but with a great deal of outstanding talent. I see nothing wrong with this format. Am I missing some nuance?
Last edited by PickaCard on July 30th, 2014, 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby mrgoat » July 30th, 2014, 2:57 pm

Colour me jealous Dustin. That sounds amazing!

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby Bob Cunningham » July 30th, 2014, 2:58 pm

Everyone is expected to perform a trick and everyone is going to be critiqued


To me, this would be make an event worth attending. Why invest the money (and more importantly the time) to attend a convention in order to hear a series of lectures? A high quality video is typically a better medium for that type of learning. There is more information, taught more clearly and videos have the ability to replay as needed.

For me, I know the "secrets" of many more tricks than I will ever perform. What I need is feedback on how to perform my existing routines more effectively .

Last year I attended "Magic for Speakers & Presenters" at Jeff McBride's Mystery school for exactly that type of feed back. For me, it was both time and money well spent. A year latter and my performances are still being positively impacted!

Any chance of something more interactive being available at the upcoming "Genii 2" ?

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby erdnasephile » July 30th, 2014, 3:01 pm

Very cool, Dustin--those sound like great experiences.

I realize that the type of group you describe with Carney is what convention organizers try to provide with the extra cost workshops.

However, they are typically lacking in three ways IMHO:

1. They are too darn large. For example, the Fat Brothers workshop was great, but with 20 plus people, there was no time for personal feedback and instruction. It ended up being just a smaller lecture, albeit a terrific one.

2. There is no way to assess the competency of the group members to give feedback. You're typically all strangers in the group and have no idea if what they are saying is valid or not for you.

3. There is no time to develop trust amongst the group. In order to give and more importantly receive constructive feedback, there needs to be trust within the group that everyone is going to do their best to work towards your best interests, not just theirs.

The ideal group to me would be something like the Chicago Session--people that meet together over years to work on their magic. "Iron sharpens iron" truly happens in groups such as these, I reckon.

It wouldn't be easy to develop groups like this at the typical convention unless someone were to try the idea of putting interested magicians into carefully constructed groups at the beginning of the convention to session and to have them repeatedly meet throughout convention. The composition of the groups could be constructed prior to the convention based on information provided by the participants, including personality/leadership inventories. You'd also ideally have a gifted teacher/mentor with each group who has experience as a group facilitator who could contact the participants prior to the convention for some pre-convention homework. Some post-convention follow-up and instruction would be desirable to keep people accountable and to really drive home what was learned. Finally, you'd have to charge enough to winnow out some of the people who were more interested in looking rather than doing.

Would such a thing ever happen at the typical magic convention at the prices we pay? Probably not, but what I just described is analagous to what happens at leadership training seminars I've attended. It would be pretty cool to have an experience like that in magic. Is that what it's like in Mystery School, Brad and Bob?

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby Bob Cunningham » July 30th, 2014, 3:31 pm

Mystery School has a huge advantage over conventions - time. The one I attended was only 3 days and I left wishing I had attended the 7 day version. A convention lecture would obviously not have the luxury of even 3 who days for this type of thing.

During the three days of Mystery School everyone performed. The feedback was limited to the instructors. However, after Jeff McBride, Eugene Burger, Larry Hass and Tobias Beckwith had given me feedback I had enough to work on for a while :-)

Of course there was "down time" when the students would spend time with each other and informal feedback would take place there also.

Another helpful feature was that the performances and the feedback were recorded. I have gone over my feedback a few additional times since over the past year.

I do think that even a 1 to 2 hour "break out" session could be helpful if everyone who attended agreed beforehand to perform something short. One problem with my group at Mystery School was that some people could not tell the difference between 3-5 minutes and 15 minutes :-) You might be able to filter the group by having a small additional fee and some prescreening.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 30th, 2014, 3:37 pm

The type of experience that some are describing here is available only in a one-on-one lesson, or a lesson with a group of 3 or 4. These things are not possible at a magic convention.

As far as preferring to watch a lecture on a DVD: absolutely not. There is no experience of "energy in the room" when watching a DVD. You only get that live.
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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby Tom-Smith » July 30th, 2014, 4:09 pm

I haven't been to a magic conference for several years, but have been to science teacher conferences often. There, larger supply companies offer workshops utilizing there materials. In this way, teachers get to try materials / experiments instead of just hear about them. What would happen if Murphy's, Robbin's, Fun, Inc., or large retailers sponsored an event and supplied materials so that attendees could try it there. Of course, some are "one offs" in that the item will need to be replenished, and available in dealer's room, but not all. Also, what about a workshop where old standards from their rack display lines are presented in new and novel ways?

Another piece of the science conference is that "regular" people present, not just the stars. A description of the 45 minute talk, workshop, etc. is prepared by the presenter. Several of these are offered at one time and attendees choose who they would like to see. These presenters are not paid. They are just sharing their expertise or interest. There has to be some interesting folks out there who have yet to be heard of who May have same interests as others.

Just some thoughts...

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby Brad Henderson » July 30th, 2014, 4:10 pm

not possible - such disheartening words to hear from the mouth of a magician.

It is possible. some people have staged full scale Mayan apocalypse experiences and even alien invasions in which hundreds of participants were immersed and actively engaged for hours.

if it's possible to create an entirely fictitious universe in someone's back yard I would think ramping up the involvement of the participants of a magic convention would be a snap - but one would need to be willing to think about things from angles non traditional.

but who wants to do that?!?!?

just FYI the mystery school experiences I reference were not the small workshops being presented currently but moderate sized gatherings of magicians, the last few rivaling attendance of many local gatherings.

not wanting to do something different should never be confused with not being able to do something different.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 30th, 2014, 4:48 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:not possible - such disheartening words to hear from the mouth of a magician.


Brad, spare me the crap.
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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby John McDonald » July 30th, 2014, 5:35 pm

A few years ago I attended a Gazzo workshop on his street cups and balls. We were too many to really do this justice. But Gazzo was great fun.
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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby Bill Mullins » July 30th, 2014, 5:59 pm

Another model is that of writing workshops:

Clarion Writing Workshop
Viable Paradise

Jamy Ian Swiss put together several Card Clinics. Since he doesn't any more, I presume they didn't work out so well, but they looked like they would be great.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby erdnasephile » July 30th, 2014, 10:22 pm

I seem to recall Aaron Fisher was trying recently to put together a small group to study magic and critique performances as well over Skype.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby brianarudolph » July 30th, 2014, 10:55 pm

mrgoat wrote:Yeah, I said if you used a "credit card" it would have been easy.


Not so even then, unfortunately. The bank said that even if it was a credit card transaction, because of the number of charges authorized by the cardholder (they didn't seem to care that they were three payments for a single purchase) and the amount of time between the charges (December to February to April) - and then again between the final charge and the post-event filing for a chargeback (April to July) - that all of those would be viewed in the merchants favor. Add to that the stated no-refunds policy and the right-to-change-the-schedule-at-will policy that was posted up front, and the bank said that myself (or anyone) will have a very hard time proving a case for the credit card chargeback, despite the fact that what the company actually delivered clearly was false advertising.

Like Richard suggested earlier, I would still encourage everyone who was extremely dissatisfied with The Congress of Wonders to request a credit card chargeback. Dreamsnatcher events deserves nothing less after conducting an event clearly designed to scam money from the registrants while intentionally structuring a virtually impossible refund process.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby MManchester » July 30th, 2014, 10:59 pm

During the three days of Mystery School everyone performed. The feedback was limited to the instructors.


Bob, I am a little surprised by this because Eugene has said in the past that not everyone is called to perform. Was this a requirement or an expectation by those in attendance? I would love to attend the Mystery School to participate in discussions in a more intimate setting. But I wouldn't be comfortable performing. I haven't made an attempt to join the local magic club because attendees are expected to perform on the third visit and my life situation precludes being able to do much more than read about magic right now.
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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby Leonard Hevia » July 30th, 2014, 11:15 pm

brianarudolph wrote:Today I received a very short reply to my request via email stating that the event organizers are "unable to offer a refund." Well, of course they are able to offer a refund; they just refuse to.


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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby Bob Cunningham » July 31st, 2014, 2:56 am

I am a little surprised by this because Eugene has said in the past that not everyone is called to perform. Was this a requirement or an expectation by those in attendance?


Everyone was given the opportunity to perform - but no one was required to perform. I think there were two reasons that everyone performed in the class I attended.

First, although some people were new to magic, we were all professional speakers or teachers of some sort. So we were all comfortable speaking to a group :-)

Second, Mystery School is a VERY safe environment! Although there were people who were learning to perform their 1st trick and others who had been regularly performing magic for 40 years, everyone was cheered on by the class and everyone received feedback on how they could improve. I suspect even in our class there were people who did not intend to perform, but changed their mind when they realized that they would never see a more positive and receptive audience .

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby mrgoat » July 31st, 2014, 4:07 am

brianarudolph wrote:
mrgoat wrote:Yeah, I said if you used a "credit card" it would have been easy.


Not so even then, unfortunately. The bank said that even if it was a credit card transaction, because of the number of charges authorized by the cardholder (they didn't seem to care that they were three payments for a single purchase) and the amount of time between the charges (December to February to April) - and then again between the final charge and the post-event filing for a chargeback (April to July) - that all of those would be viewed in the merchants favor. Add to that the stated no-refunds policy and the right-to-change-the-schedule-at-will policy that was posted up front, and the bank said that myself (or anyone) will have a very hard time proving a case for the credit card chargeback, despite the fact that what the company actually delivered clearly was false advertising.

Like Richard suggested earlier, I would still encourage everyone who was extremely dissatisfied with The Congress of Wonders to request a credit card chargeback. Dreamsnatcher events deserves nothing less after conducting an event clearly designed to scam money from the registrants while intentionally structuring a virtually impossible refund process.


I have seen, many many many times, people charge back memberships of websites up to 12 months after they joined. Monthly amounts going out. 12 payments. A year. And still they side with the buyer. And that wasn't false advertising.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby brianarudolph » July 31st, 2014, 8:37 am

mrgoat wrote:I have seen, many many many times, people charge back memberships of websites up to 12 months after they joined. Monthly amounts going out. 12 payments. A year. And still they side with the buyer. And that wasn't false advertising.


I'm not doubting for second that you have seen such, Mr. G. - but I am reporting my experience with my bank and Dreamsnatcher Events on the Congress of Wonders, not someone joining some website. Were the fees these people were paying $500 per month or more? I will bet we're talking about things in different monetary leagues here. I'd be more interested to hear of experiences you've had receiving chargebacks for convention registrations that didn't deliver as promised. And yes, I've already begun to explore switching to a different bank because of this.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby brianarudolph » July 31st, 2014, 9:03 am

Leonard Hevia wrote:
brianarudolph wrote:Today I received a very short reply to my request via email stating that the event organizers are "unable to offer a refund." Well, of course they are able to offer a refund; they just refuse to.


"Money lost is an educational investment"
Bob Farmer


Remember that quote the next time someone screws you, Lenny. Bought a lemon car? Don't complain about it and don't try to return it - just suck it up and consider it an educational investment. Then go buy another car. I'm sure you'll be quite happy with your educational investment.

The shameful thing is that I'm talking about money lost IN an educational investment - or at least in what purported to be one.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby mrgoat » July 31st, 2014, 10:55 am

brianarudolph wrote:
mrgoat wrote:I have seen, many many many times, people charge back memberships of websites up to 12 months after they joined. Monthly amounts going out. 12 payments. A year. And still they side with the buyer. And that wasn't false advertising.


I'm not doubting for second that you have seen such, Mr. G. - but I am reporting my experience with my bank and Dreamsnatcher Events on the Congress of Wonders, not someone joining some website.


And indeed I do not doubt you either. One takeaway here is to use your credit card when buying anything online.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 31st, 2014, 11:30 am

Can we stop arguing about that now? Thank you.
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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby Smurf » July 31st, 2014, 12:23 pm

Why should you be happier if only John Carney is available to lecture and you and everyone else at the convention must watch him compared to you watching John Carney and missing Johnny Thompson?

In one scenario, Johnny Thompson won't even be invited to speak because the lecture slate is full. In another, he is there but concurrently lecturing as Carney is and you get your choice.

You not only don't get a choice in a "All attendees watch everything" scenario, you end up watching with less interaction and poor intimacy. If it were logistically and financially feasible, which I can't see how it would be, then running 10-lectures concurrently in smaller settings would be much better for the attendees. The advantage of small rooms and targeted topics is big plus in my book. (Unless everyone showed up at one or just a few lectures.) Missing something should not make you annoyed if what you are experiencing is a quality event.

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Re: Ricky Jay's Congress of Wonders

Postby MJE » October 29th, 2014, 11:45 am

[quote="Bob Farmer"]I'm organizing a Congress of Blunders at the Motel 6 in Albany. etc...

Bob-

I know a guy who knows a guy who claims to be a direct descendant of the inventor of "French Toast" up there. Since he works right across the river in the train station, I bet he could show up a celebratory guest. Attendees should be sure to bring a Sharpie or two. Signing bread with a ballpoint pen is just asking for trouble.


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