Geller stoops to a new low

[Brad Henderson]

jt - what I'm saying is that it is a misplaced priority to complain there is a hair in one's soup when the soup we order day after day, willingly, is made out of sh$t.

tommy downs sold instructional books that were filled with misinformation.

how many magicians sell videos promising you will be the life of the party? how about that magic class which will give you confidence?

drink this beer and you will be cool like the actors in this commercial.

everybody is selling woo woo - in and out of their shows.

magicians just oppose this one type of woo woo

I suspect jealousy.

[mrgoat]

I suspect jealousy.

'Jealousy' is a Magic Cafe style form of laziness when someone doesn't like something/someone.

You can do better than that Brad.

[Richard Kaufman]

It's not jealousy. But there is a definite issue of resentment.

[PapaG]

Now that IS an ad hominem fallacy.

How anyone can be blind to the immorality of pretending to be able to find a lost passenger plane through 'psychic' powers is beyond me. These people's relatives are presumably DEAD. Do you really need an argument?

The level of blind obsequiousness and tasteless 'intellectual' fandangos displayed by some in the defence of Geller has been nauseating.

There's another ad hominem for you.

All the rational arguing, based on what I would have assumed would be a set of shared common ethical values and human decency, has been made more eloquently by others.

[Brad Henderson]

Damian, I know. I felt bad even writing it. But I think in this case there is some truth to it - and I think RK may have a better word choice.

I think I can say this because it was true for me early on. I was a randi acolyte. There was a real emotion associated with seeing others take that path - and it wasn't disgust with their morality (though I would happily have used that as a shield).

we have heard magicians poo poo mentalists and mentalism - suggesting it a field for people who lack skill. And while Tim may be correct that some talentless magicians were talented enough to make it as mentalists - doesn't that also suggest that resentment would be a reasonable response? Afterall - if people you believe to be talentless hacks can become more successful than you, become more believable than you, wouldn't it stand to reason that one might develop an emotional predisposition to dislike as a result of personally relevant experiences?

I believe there are many people in the world who hold strong negative opinions on Geller because of his moral choices.

but I also believe many if those people are not magicians.

when I listen to magicians speak of psychics/mind readers et al (and I do) I can't help but suspect there
are other factors in play, especially when one considers our adoration as a profession of the con man/card cheat.

[PapaG]

I just hope you never hold public office.

[Brad Henderson]

papag,

how is Geller pretending to use powers to find a missing plane worse than an Air Force officer claiming to know where it will be found because 'he knows things he can't speak of.'?

how is Geller responding when asked his opinion different than any other talking head giving their opinion - other than the fact Geller is honest about where he gets his information?

exactly what harm was done by Geller to those families that wasn't done equally or more so be every 'expert' who offered their guesses, and were equally wrong?

the difference is your panties are in a bunch because of the psychic label. Well, honey, with your tone and attitude your side will continue to fail to win converts.

want people to stop listening to psychics - give them something more than ridicule, derision, and disillusionment. Because right now, that's all your side seems to be offering.

[Jonathan Townsend]

...when one considers our adoration as a profession of the con man/card cheat.

what? just what misfortune do you wish to condone and how much complicity can you afford? The gambler flirts with mis fortune and the conman proffers vain fantasy at cost. Drama reflects its culture. For most a role in the performing arts is a dress up act and parody at best and perhaps a tell for sociopaths if you need to look closer at what happens when one breaks the proscenium arch by applying values from a story to real people's lives. If it means something it must have relevance in context - presuming the validity of the context.

as to the social ills... part of the human condition.

selling faith / supernatural product on the open market though ... isn't that infringing on the religious folks?

as you already know based on that slip of paper prediction in that large box locked with a quaint lock that's been sitting there the entire time. Now here's the key and let's look at what's confabulated inside.

*not the best grammar/spell check in my browser.

[Brad Henderson]

while I am familiar with the separation of church and state, I don't recall any dogma demanding the separation of church and magic.

their magic may be your prayer and my sideshow.

I know many an owner of those quaint chests and ornate padlocks who stand before suited executives offering information and motivation and insight.

can the lesson not be real even though the demonstration is fake?

the acupuncturist cheating at strong hand weak hand game doesn't invalidate the improvements many have seen at the other end of the needles.

[Diego]

This is a post on Geller I did awhile back, which might provide some context in all this. Wow! Now on 7 pages...Geller and Blaine have a habit of generating this.


I found Uri's appearance at that magician's gathering intriguing enough, plus the interview. Why Uri has gone in this direction, as well as his latest TV shows, is a puzzle,blurring the line that he had previously kept, apart from magicians...softening the persona/myth he had created.

The interview was interesting...saying things he wouldn't have said a few years ago. note what he says as well as what he DOESN'T say.

His influence is too important to be merely dismissed.
Regardless if he is regarded as a psychic-gifted artist, or a performance artist, or a con artist....Uri is an artist regardless. A master of what he does.
Some of Brad's comments of what some magicians pick and choose to rant about and their inconsistancy is correct.

Watching Uri Geller do an hour+ long presentation is a demonstration of what showmanship is.
I have seen audiences bored with their arms folded, while some magician was doing a "death-defying" effect.
But you haven't lived, until you have seen a thousand people in a hotel ballroom, half-standing in their seats, utterly transfixed, with their mouths open, as a key bent a quarter of an inch in Uri's hand.

When Geller starts his presentation, like Kreskin, he spends time talking to the crowd, and lets them begin to know HIM.
He can masterfully take the crowd to his world, (that they want to be in)as well as create the expectation, and the later release of actually experiencing it for themselves!
I have seen him place small seeds in his hand and as he opens his fist and exclaims that the seeds are opening, audience members RUN towards him to see/experience the moment. ("It's happening! It's working!") It was not unlike if they were experiencing the excitment 2,000 years ago, when someone was shouting, "Look! Someone's walking on the water!"

Understand what he has accomplished: Not unlike Houdini, both grew up in poverty and obsurity, but both could not, NOT be successful and famous. Both took boring effects, the handcuff escape and making keys/spoons bend, and made it IMPORTANT to the world. Why should anyone care? But they made them care,wonder, and argue. 1/3rd of a century later, people are still talking/arguing over Geller. BECAUSE of Geller, some magicians have made a living: Imitating him, marketing versions of his effects, or claiming to expose/debunk him.

Guy Bavali said at a lecture at The Magic Castle, that Geller had defined, if not created a NEW effect in magic, key/spoon bending. A bent spoon now means the paranormal to the public today, just as ESP symbols did a generation ago, and turbans and crystal balls, the generation before that.

Geller did note he had "crossed the line" in his earlier claims. Now he is crossing the line to the chagrin of others, in the opposite direction.

Please remember, much of what mentalism comes from, was the psychic parlor and the seance room, not the other way around.
Diego Posts: 195Joined: 16 Jun 2008 08:29

[Jonathan Townsend]

...can the lesson not be real even though the demonstration is fake?

the acupuncturist cheating at strong hand weak hand game doesn't invalidate the improvements many have seen at the other end of the needles.

That's pretty much the motivation for using blind or double blind procedures.

presuming there is a lesson, or that someone else can be sure what that lesson might be is ... scary.

[Diego]

I was thinking that this conversation/arguments on the last 7 pages are mostly something only magicians concern themselves with.

I remember talking with a friend in a religious tradition, whose contentious members have argued-over and divided themselves to the point of not talking to each other for years, over different IMPORTANT issues, including the correct numbers of cups that should be used in a communion service, or if it would be, (scripturally) correct to play a guitar during a music/worship service.

Reflecting on this, I told him that if he went out on the street and told people, "People inside there are arguing/shouting over how many cups should be in a communion tray", they would shake their heads in disbelief, uncomprehending.

Reporter to preacher: "I can't understand why you think God would care if there is guitar playing in church."

Preacher to reporter: "I can't understand why you would think God wouldn't care if there is a guitar playing in church!"

[Brad Henderson]

double blind is science talk.

a poem has a lesson but double blind testing will go nowhere to verifying its truth.

Bob Fellows was asked to comment on a spirit channeler. the medium brought forth a 2000 year old spirit who spoke many languages.

bob's take wasnt to debunk the reality of the spirit or the sincerely of the medium. Instead he commented that just because the information is coming from a 2000 year old spirits doesn't mean it is good information, just old information.

geller's guesses, ed shultz's guesses, don lemon's guesses, mccain's guesses, guy in a suit's guesses, hot blonde with nice legs guesses, celebrity who was booked last week's guesses - again, I can't see a difference. They are all guessing.

at least Geller, by claiming to be a psychic, is admitting to it.

[Jonathan Townsend]

double blind is science talk. ...

It's shorthand to describe a procedure designed to filter out belief/behavior based effects from the effects of the material under test. It's the kind of thing one learns about the same time as learning that the skeptical position is open to evidence and the cynical position seeks to identify who benefits.

Getting back to testing the proffered item for specific effect... that way the participant does not know which of (or whether) they are getting a neutral item or the item under test. And that way the person administering the material under test to the participant does not know either. That such a thing has been considered and adopted implies much about known "placebo" or belief based effects during experiments.

Does it really matter whether the fable was written by a committee of brand sponsors as long as the listener is happy on their way to the concession stand for a treat and some souvenirs? That's a distinction to be made between correct, good and right.

Rhetorical forms broken to indemnify the tricky

[PapaG]

want people to stop listening to psychics - give them something more than ridicule, derision, and disillusionment. Because right now, that's all your side seems to be offering.

I am not claiming, or have ever claimed in this conversation, that the problem is that people listen to psychics. Even Conan Doyle, grief-stricken, refused to disbelieve in Spiritualism. And his main character was Holmes, the Lord Of Rationality.

Grief does terrible things to people, moron.

It's people who exploit that grief for personal gain that we're condemning.

If I was a kid I'd use *facepalm

[Brad Henderson]

what of all the sincere psychics out there? people who believe they have the gift because many in their lives have told them so?

is one's guessing harmless in one context (when given by believers) but harmful in the other (when given by those who might not actually believe)?

seems to me the non believer may be less burdened by belief and can therefor give those who do believe something that might actually work to their stated goals - not being fettered by their sincerity or 'reality', as perceived by the believer.

it's one thing to claim that the snake oil is medicine, but should we shoot the doctor who gives the patient the medicine they need, but delivered in a package they are willing to accept?

if a magical teddy bear helps a sick child get through one more night, or if dumbo's magical feather teaches an elephant to fly - should we not take into account the results and not just the means?

I doubt anyone ever climbed a mountain or made a million just by listening to tony Robbins or staring at a motivationally captioned picture of a peak.

lies and illusions all.

which brings me back to the question you willfully dodge - what exactly did Geller do that every single talking head, book promoting, media seeking speculator didn't do?

other than use the label 'psychic' ?

(thanks for the name calling. It lets me know you know you have no foundation for your arguments. thanks for playing though. )

[Jonathan Townsend]

...
which brings me back to the question you willfully dodge - what exactly did Geller do that every single talking head, book promoting, media seeking speculator didn't do?...

See Chris's post from a while back in this thread with the image for the kit charged with woo offer.

*
So the folks who can't follow the argument have a distraction... what would you think of a magician who offered to make people's wives disappear?

[Brad Jeffers]

especially when one considers our adoration as a profession of the con man/card cheat.

"It talks about debasers of coins, short change artists, dice mechanics, card hustlers.
These people are my friends." --- RICKY JAY

[PapaG]

what of all the sincere psychics out there? people who believe they have the gift because many in their lives have told them so?

Yes, there are lots of mentally ill people in the world.

it's one thing to claim that the snake oil is medicine, but should we shoot the doctor who gives the patient the medicine they need, but delivered in a package they are willing to accept?

Given that I am not talking about placebo but about the ethics of someone who falsely claims he can locate a missing plane, remind me, how successful was Geller's 'plane full of dead people divination' exactly? Oh, sorry, was it a kindly administered palliative rather than a cynical piece of self-publicity?

So as not to prolong this pointless dialogue, those were rhetorical questions.

(thanks for the name calling. It lets me know you know you have no foundation for your arguments.

No it doesn't. I could call you a pompous idiot and it would have no bearing on the logic of any argument.

[Brad Jeffers]

Yes, there are lots of mentally ill people in the world.

Do you consider all people who believe in something that you yourself know to be untrue or impossible, to be "mentally ill"?

[PapaG]

Yes I do. Anyone who disagrees with me is mentally ill. I am the true source of reality. And I have the power to heal. I'm thinking of starting a cult. A nominal subscription fee of course.

I'll give you a discount.

[Brad Henderson]

papag dodges the question again.

what are you afraid of?

what did Geller do that none of the other self promoting talking heads did other than using the term psychic? Was his guess no better, no worse, or no more or less damaging than any other talking head? (jt - all the other heads sell their books and authority.)

papag, it must burn not being able to answer the simplest of questions from a pompous idiot.

I feel for those mentally ill people who you dismiss so cavalierly. Perhaps if someone wasn't filled with hate they could drop the anger and change peoples ideas, healing their mental deficiencies - but calling them mentally ill or guillable might not be the way to go, don't cha think?

why is it the people who want to be the smartest in the room often make such stupid choices - taking a path that insures that which they hate is nurtured and strengthened.

I guess mental illness is more prevalent than some believe.

[PapaG]

Sorry, you've lost me there mate. What exactly is your question?

[Brad Henderson]

Sorry, you've lost me there mate. What exactly is your question?

"which brings me back to the question you willfully dodge - what exactly did Geller do that every single talking head, book promoting, media seeking speculator didn't do ... other than use the label 'psychic' ?

[PapaG]

I don't judge ethics by those standards. But surely you must be able to distinguish speculation from divination?

It must be very strange living a life with absolutely no guage of verisimilitude. I can't imagine the difficulty you have with the most simple of tasks.

This has all been said before in this thread. I'm out of here.

[Jonathan Townsend]

I don't judge ethics by those standards. But surely you must be able to distinguish speculation from divination?

It must be very strange living a life with absolutely no guage of verisimilitude. I can't imagine the difficulty you have with the most simple of tasks.

This has all been said before in this thread. I'm out of here.

As best I understand it you have to sue to achieve tax exempt religious status. The buck $tops there?

[Brad Henderson]

running away is more noble than name calling.

can you see a difference between a man who bends spoons telling us what he feels may have happened and that others could do the same AND the uniformed military officer or pilot laying out in step by step detail based on their experience and 'insider source reports'?

here's what they have in common - they were all equally full of sh!t. They were all guessing.

here's the difference, uri was open about it. You believe psychics are bogus. Uri calls himself a psychic therefor he, to you, is calling himself bogus.

you fault him for suggesting the people do exactly what they were already doing - taking guesses and trusting their feelings and imaginations.

the guy who does that a home is, by your account, mentally ill.
a guy who bends spoons anddoes it is a monster.
but the guy who does it on multiple TV shows, wearing a uniform or anchoring a newscast is????

the religion of the anti-psychic! same song, different words