Geller stoops to a new low

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby P.T.Widdle » March 26th, 2014, 11:47 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:Everyone has their own taste:


I respectfully believe you are confusing taste with ethics. You think Penn & Teller's pistol trick is in bad taste. You also think Criss Angel's cadaver stunt was in bad taste. Fine, but Geller's plane stunt was ethically wrong. Unlike P&T or Angel, Geller did not present what he was doing in the context of a magical performance. It was a stunt of a con artist/psychic. You're right, he stepped over the line, the line of ethics, not taste.

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby P.T.Widdle » March 26th, 2014, 11:58 am

Brad Henderson wrote:did Geller call the news or did they call him.
At this point in geller's career what else can he do?


Say "No."

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Brad Henderson » March 26th, 2014, 1:02 pm

P.T.Widdle wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:did Geller call the news or did they call him.
At this point in geller's career what else can he do?


Say "No."


So Geller is a bad man because someone asked him to go on air and offer his opinion. He gave a noncommittal answer.

Yet how many dozens of various "experts" have gone on air to tell us (with more than equal claims of "authority") their speculations: hijack, terrorism, ghost planes, big plane flying over little plane.

Each of them if giving the public what they want - speculation. They rely on their "authority" - which often is as applicably valid as the ability to bend spoons. What does a news anchor or pundit actually know? Yet the hold themselves up as authorities based on nothing. They over look their misses and advertise their "hits" when they occur.

Geller did nothing no other talking head has done. His opinion is equally as valid as Charles Krauthammer's - expect Geller doesn't speak for a political party with a vested interest in fomenting fear with the intent to expand military contracts.

McCain et al are using their "beliefs" in order to set us on a military footing and create wealth for companies who pay them with lobbyist dollars.

But Geller is a monster because - - -he said "in this case, I'm not sure."

Righteous indignation is fun - but you might want to direct it to the real monsters.

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby P.T.Widdle » March 26th, 2014, 2:04 pm

You are reaching.

Geller didn't simply state his opinion. He offered to help, using the "remote viewing" ("It works by people sending their mind through space and time") technique.

"I have been asked to help. I believe in remote viewing. Can you help me? Can you please try to 'see' where YOU believe the plane went down?"

And please don't bring your political opinions into this conversation. Richard?
Brad Henderson wrote:McCain et al are using their "beliefs" in order to set us on a military footing and create wealth for companies who pay them with lobbyist dollars.

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby P.T.Widdle » March 26th, 2014, 2:23 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:I think Geller is the greatest close-up magician of the last 50 years.


Just because you opened this can of worms. Better than?

- Ricky Jay
- Bill Malone
- David Williamson
- Shoot Ogawa

Anyone else?

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Edward Pungot » March 26th, 2014, 3:10 pm

Giving any kind of “professional advice” under the pretext of false assumptions is fraud in my book. At the Genii Roast I could smell it when I entered the room.

I stood up for Tamariz, the Juggler, and Zabrecky among others.
Don't get me wrong. I found his talk to be highly entertaining a informative ( I took lot of notes). I even think they have it on tape.

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Brad Henderson » March 26th, 2014, 3:19 pm

Twiddle - my point is true regardless of your political persuasion. Switch the names, change the network, its all the same. (I picked the two I did because I heard them speculate with their own mouths - making claims based on evidence EXACTLY as substantial as Geller's and his audiences "feelings."

The news has been filled with scores of people promoting themselves and their books and their names by SPECULATING on the location of the plane.

Geller is a monster for doing EXACTLY what they do?

Whose the arse now?

At least Geller has the decency to use the label PSYCHIC so people know where his authority comes from - and can decide how much value to give it. Compare it to the "general" on Hannity who kept alluding to "knowing things he can't discuss." Because he is a general we should believe him more? What of all the pilots who offered different explanations. What do they know - factually - that Geller does not. (again, nothing political intended - just referencing FACTS.)

But yet we are encouraged to believe these people because 1)they were chosen by the network 2)anchors we know and trust look to them, so we should too 3) they have job titles perhaps in some way related to aviation, though none of them were on the flight or received any information from the flight?


"I have been asked to help. I believe in remote viewing. Can you help me? Can you please try to 'see' where YOU believe the plane went down?" - how is that different from what any of the other talking heads have done? Are they not using their imagination to "see" where they "believe" the plane went down? At least Geller didn't have the gall to draw a map, lay out a motivation, and produce a theory - like every other talking head did.

Why are their speculations fine, but Geller's are not?

Because of motivation? Every single person on that screen is building their brand. They are no better than Geller. And some of them, we could argue, or trying to use their speculations in order to manipulate people into decisions that do have real costs.

Geller, at worst, gave people hope.

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Edward Pungot » March 26th, 2014, 3:32 pm

Just in time for Easter and the Easter Bunny.

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby P.T.Widdle » March 26th, 2014, 4:10 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:Why are their speculations fine, but Geller's are not?

Because they did not offer to help using psychic crowd sourcing.

Brad Henderson wrote:Geller, at worst, gave people hope.


Yeah, he's a saint.

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Brad Henderson » March 26th, 2014, 4:32 pm

So a guy who says he's going to ask a bunch of people to guess is a monster, but the guys who are guessing but pretend that they aren't (ie every talking head on television who espoused a theory)are not?

One of those two sets of guessers are at least telling their audience (if they choose to listen) that he is relying on guessing.

The others are claiming real authority.

Again - who is the monster?

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Brad Henderson » March 26th, 2014, 4:33 pm

Edward Pungot wrote:Just in time for Easter and the Easter Bunny.


Amen, Brother!

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Dustin Stinett » March 26th, 2014, 5:08 pm

Here’s what I find most fascinating about this thread: it is a perfect example of the overall message of Geller’s talk at the Genii Bash. Even though not every post is strictly about him, the perception is that the entire thread—which has garnered five pages comprising of 171 posts and over 5,000 views in just ten days—is all about Uri Geller.

I think it's fair to say that the man knew what he was talking about in that lecture.

Dustin

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby mrgoat » March 26th, 2014, 5:21 pm

Dustin Stinett wrote:Here’s what I find most fascinating about this thread: it is a perfect example of the overall message of Geller’s talk at the Genii Bash. Even though not every post is strictly about him, the perception is that the entire thread—which has garnered five pages comprising of 171 posts and over 5,000 views in just ten days—is all about Uri Geller.

I think it's fair to say that the man knew what he was talking about in that lecture.

Dustin


I'm not sure that JUST getting publicity is a laudable thing.

Getting publicity by lying and conning people isn't hard.

I walked out of his lecture after 15 minutes, he just makes me very annoyed. To retain composure and politeness when I had to interview him for the genii bash podcasts I did was extremely hard.

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 26th, 2014, 5:28 pm

Widdle, don't willfully misinterpret my statements. I have already written two or three times in this thread that I thought Geller stepped over the line in dealing with the missing plane. So be quiet, READ what I write, and then reply based on what I've written.

And, as far as the list of magicians you've made, it's absolutely absurd and completely subjective. My unequivocal statement stands. If you don't like it, please don't waste our time by listing other close-up magicians you think are better.

I mean ... Shoot Ogawa? Really? Who the hell in the real world knows who Shoot Ogawa is? He's a nice guy, but ... he can't shine the shoes of the top 10 guys in the world--whoever you think they may be.
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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Dustin Stinett » March 26th, 2014, 5:30 pm

DamiAn,

I'm not saying whether or not it is laudable. It's just a fact. The guy is making himself "relevant" and—like it or not—we are all culpable in this particular case.

Dustin

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 26th, 2014, 5:40 pm

Dustin Stinett wrote:like it or not—we are all culpable in this particular case.


Culp for yourself. I think the guy is charismatic and enthralling to some audiences ... but that has nothing at all do do with what distinguishes a magician from a juggler, charlatan or false prophet.

In the real world ... well that's beyond the subjective and into making judgmental statements about the inner worlds of others and their values.

So in your world how well does Geller do the cups and balls? We need some neutral ground and common language here.
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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Dustin Stinett » March 26th, 2014, 5:51 pm

How or what he performs is irrelevant to the point. Since you were not at his talk, you are unaware of his message which, in a nutshell, is Houdini's old yarn: any publicity is good publicity. Anything that keeps your name in the "news" is good a good thing. Your post, Jonathan, on this thread adds yet another layer—good or bad notwithstanding—to this conversation. That makes you and me "culpable" in that regard.

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 26th, 2014, 6:06 pm

Dustin Stinett wrote:How or what he performs is irrelevant to the point. ...
Dustin


"the point", as I see it, is about someone who uses trickery being a magician and their greatness being equated by their q-factor and that you won't be censured for referencing his accomplishments.

To my sensibilities that's toxic and I wouldn't even gargle with that kool-aid
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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby mrgoat » March 26th, 2014, 6:07 pm

Dustin Stinett wrote:How or what he performs is irrelevant to the point. Since you were not at his talk, you are unaware of his message which, in a nutshell, is Houdini's old yarn: any publicity is good publicity. Anything that keeps your name in the "news" is good a good thing. Your post, Jonathan, on this thread adds yet another layer—good or bad notwithstanding—to this conversation. That makes you and me "culpable" in that regard.

Dustin


Any publicity is NOT good publicity though. In the UK there has been a massive amount of publicity surrounding TV presenters at the BBC in the 70s raping children. I doubt that is helping their careers much.

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Dustin Stinett » March 26th, 2014, 6:56 pm

Ugh ...

I am not ... NOT!!! ... saying whether or not Geller is right or Houdini is right regarding publicity. I am only restating what he said in his talk and how we are IN FACT playing right into what he said!

That is the ONLY point I am raising. I couldn't care less about every other aspect of this thread; including my posts within the first few hours of this thread's start. (And I suspect that Geller would agree—which is MY point!)

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby mrgoat » March 26th, 2014, 6:59 pm

Dustin Stinett wrote:I couldn't care less


Wow. You are the first Americaland dweller I've seen write 'couldn't care less' which is right and proper. Normally people from your fair land put 'could care less' which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I applaud you good sir!

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Dustin Stinett » March 26th, 2014, 7:03 pm

:)

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 26th, 2014, 7:10 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:... Righteous indignation is fun - but you might want to direct it to the real monsters.


Start with the ones you can afford to ignore.

Deconstruct the hype.
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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby P.T.Widdle » March 26th, 2014, 9:07 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Widdle, don't willfully misinterpret my statements. I have already written two or three times in this thread that I thought Geller stepped over the line in dealing with the missing plane. So be quiet, READ what I write, and then reply based on what I've written.


Well, I was reading your statements, and I prefaced my responses with "respectfully." I only pressed because I wanted to know whether you thought Geller stepped over the line in terms of taste or ethics. I still don't know.
If you want me to "be quiet" (is that a euphemism for "shut up?"), on this than I guess I will.

Richard Kaufman wrote: My unequivocal statement stands. If you don't like it, please don't waste our time by listing other close-up magicians you think are better.


Gee, I didn't know I was wasting everyone's time by responding to the pretty provocative statement, "best close-up magician in the last 50 years," given that it was uttered by the Master Genii about a controversial figure currently being discussed on a magic forum.

But I guess you're right, my list of close-up magicians is "absurd," and I will keep that in mind when I watch the lightweight Ricky Jay on the Tonight Show next week. I'm sure his performance will pale in comparison to this impressive TV appearance by Geller:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whfXsR1YDbk

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » March 26th, 2014, 9:40 pm

Forgive my little intrusion, but I am curious: can someone elaborate on the actual magic skills that Geller has? What is he good at, technically.

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby MJE » March 26th, 2014, 9:48 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:do you judge them by the number of sequins on their coat or how many orben lines they use in their act?


Well, yeah.....if he wants to be Pope.

-MJ

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby MJE » March 26th, 2014, 10:10 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Somehow I think the point here, at least my point, has become obscured.

I think Geller is the greatest close-up magician of the last 50 years. Why? Because people believe he does real magic. Isn't that what being a magician is all about.

It has nothing to do with telling fortunes, or psychic surgery, or any silly stuff like that.

Everyone has their own taste: I found that watching Penn & Teller fire pistols at each other on stage to be nauseating. They pretended it was real, but it seemed completely fake to me (obviously there's no danger because they have another show to do the next night, and they've done this hundreds of times before).

I find the idea of firing a real and supposedly loaded gun at at another person on stage, live, incredibly offensive. Think of all the people killed by gun violence, suicide, and misadventure every day--do you think that any of the families of these people who happen to find themselves in the audience think the spectacle of watching two guys firing guns at each other is even remotely amusing? Not only is it bad magic, it's bad showmanship and a lousy anti-climax to an otherwise excellent show. And you can tell by the reaction it gets from the audience, which is demonstrably less than a lot of their stronger material receives.

I don't find any of what Uri Geller does in his motivational speeches, where he does magic (he calls them "demonstrations") to be even the tiniest bit offensive. You're free to react or relate to what he does with whatever intelligence you possess.

All of that aside, I will repeat again that, in my opinionm he has stepped over the line a few times in the past. Once may have been something about locating a missing child decades ago. He seemed to have realized this was an error and avoided saying anything of that type until recently. I would say that he stepped over the line of what most of us would consider good taste and decency by making any statements whatsoever about this missing airplane that has apparently crashed in the ocean for unknown reasons.

As far as his being paid to be a "psychic geologist": if someone was dumb enough to give me a pile of money to guess where valuable elements are located on the planet, I would take it and go do some scientific research. Sometimes you strike gold, or oil, or whatever, by luck, and sometimes through hard work. It doesn't matter how you get the job, only if you succeed. Success brings more work in the area, failure not so much.


I like the fact that I can agree and disagree so readily with one post. Almost like a coversation, huh?

I believe you to be 100% correct on Geller. OK, so, personally, I find him dull. Yet, he has done what he needed to do to make himself known. There may be jelousy at play. Certainly, I would love to have been able to get the publicity that he got in his heyday.

On the bullet catch, I find it anticlimatic rather than nausiating. It seems like a let-down as a conclusion to such a high energy show.

I really have nothing new to add to this part of the discussion but opinion. I don't think that video games, TV, or songs contribute to violence. I don't think "dirty words" (although I choose not to use them) contribute to the downfall of society. I don't think that a bullet catching trick, where the two performers have stated on multiple occasions how key their safety was in developing the effect, treats gun problems lightly.

And I still don't think Geller did anything wrong in asking for help with an international situation.

Love to all.....

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby MJE » March 26th, 2014, 10:25 pm

P.T.Widdle wrote:You are reaching.

Geller didn't simply state his opinion. He offered to help, using the "remote viewing" ("It works by people sending their mind through space and time") technique.

"I have been asked to help. I believe in remote viewing. Can you help me? Can you please try to 'see' where YOU believe the plane went down?"

And please don't bring your political opinions into this conversation. Richard?
Brad Henderson wrote:McCain et al are using their "beliefs" in order to set us on a military footing and create wealth for companies who pay them with lobbyist dollars.



P.T.-

With all due respect, do you think it is impossible.....completely impossible....that Geller believes in "remote viewing"? A lot of people do. A lot of people believe in a lot of stuff.

You and I don't buy it. That's obvious. But the majority does. They may hide it under things like religion or superstistion. It's still there.

Plus, if you were the one that got the call to respond, would you be thinking like a person or like a famous performer? It's easy to answer that now, but without the chance to think it over, do you honestly think you'd say, "No comment"?

I don't find it easy to condemn the guy in this case. In the past.....REAL easy. But he wins this battle, I think.

-MJ

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Tim Ellis » March 27th, 2014, 3:19 am


Plus, if you were the one that got the call to respond, would you be thinking like a person or like a famous performer? It's easy to answer that now, but without the chance to think it over, do you honestly think you'd say, "No comment"?

I don't find it easy to condemn the guy in this case. In the past.....REAL easy. But he wins this battle, I think.

-MJ



I never thought I would say this but I give John Edward credit. He, an even more well known "psychic" than Geller (does that make him a better magician? 8-) ) was interviewed on South African TV and asked about the missing Malaysian plane. He respectfully diverted the conversation away from that topic.

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/76c4a00043 ... hic-medium

Sure, in a few months he'll be talking to all the dead relatives... but for now, he was given the same opportunity as Geller to glorify himself in the midst of tragedy but he chose not to.

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 27th, 2014, 8:59 am

It may be that in accepting the pitch tricks of the snake oil salesman as magic craft and the pitchman as a magician we are leaving ourselves open to faith related accusations of moral turpitude. Usually we work the other way doing things like using the means of card cheats as method for harmless amusements.

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Gordon Meyer » March 27th, 2014, 11:17 am

Wow, the amount of name calling in this thread is disheartening. To sit in judgement of others and deem them "a-holes, charlatans, and con-artists" because they don't share your definition of morality is the ultimate form of egomania. I'm sorry it offends you if everyone doesn't see the world as you do. Meanwhile, I'll try to locate a teddy bear filled with magic non-judgment juice and have it delivered to your homes. Watch for a package soon. Somebody definitely needs a nap.

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 27th, 2014, 11:30 am

Gordon Meyer wrote:... I'll try to locate a teddy bear filled with magic non-judgment juice and have it delivered to your homes. Watch for a package soon. Somebody definitely needs a nap.


It's when someone goes outside their show and into public selling those magic teddy bears full of non-judgement juice and promises to recharge them regularly that they've gone off the reservation and into the land of the fal$e pro(phe)(fi)t$.

Using the word $ecret is a line in the sand. Using the term miracle(sm) is another. While one can argue it's for the good and then go on about the benefits of placebo immunization in culture ...no apology expected, please.
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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby mrgoat » March 27th, 2014, 11:30 am

Gordon Meyer wrote:To sit in judgement of others and deem them "charlatans, and con-artists" because they don't share your definition of morality is the ultimate form of egomania.


No no, you misunderstand. I called him a charlatan and con-artist because he is a charlatan* and a con-artist**. Not because he doesn't share my sense of morality.

Hope that clears it up.



*charlatan - a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill. a self-confessed con artist and charlatan.

**con artist - a swindler who exploits the confidence of his victim

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 27th, 2014, 12:15 pm

Damian, bringing child molesters into the thread is really beyond the pale. It has nothing to do with this.

Fine, you don't like Uri Geller and think he's a charlatan, however he is not a criminal, has never been accused of criminal activity, and doesn't engage in criminal activity. In this case the most he can be accused of is displaying bad judgment.

He's a magician who has incredible presentation--he is the master of presentation. You don't like the fact that he won't admit he's a magician. Okay. Now what? That's really the end of the conversation, isn't it?
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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 27th, 2014, 12:21 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:...
He's a magician who has incredible presentation--he is the master of presentation. You don't like the fact that he won't admit he's a magician. Okay. Now what? That's really the end of the conversation, isn't it?

I disagree. He fails Robert-Houdin's definition - actor playing the part of.

Reversing your logic (mathematician is a person who ties their shoes therefore X is a mathematician) to avoid using labels that describe people who do bad (moral) things by only referring to components of their behavior would be unacceptable - so let's not slide down slippery slopes backwards, please.
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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Brad Henderson » March 27th, 2014, 2:12 pm

who says the play must end when the performer walks of stage? who says the artist must confine their work to a tiny frame - or even tell you what or where that frame is?

a lot of new ideas about art have evolved since the days of the tailcoat.

why are magicians always so dead set on doing everything the same way because that's the way Fawkes, houdin, Houdini, henning, Blaine did them.

we remember these men because they did something different.

the world will remember Geller, not any of the men whose tricks I can download from www.easytobeamagician.com

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 27th, 2014, 2:27 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:who says the play must end when the performer walks of stage? ...


Well I'd prefer to believe that. And I suggest in our society we act as if we believe that lest we have folks defenstrating the actors who play peter pan to see them fly or poisoning those who play romeo or juliet for medical research purposes. Entire cast of Hamlet stabbed in highschool biology research experiment to time regeneration property of actors?

When you break the proscenium arch you let out things which make Lovecraft seem both naive and quaint.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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mrgoat
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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby mrgoat » March 27th, 2014, 3:13 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:who says the play must end when the performer walks of stage?


Everyone sane.

I can't think of ANY actor who plays a part 24/7. They'd go mad.

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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Tom Moore » March 27th, 2014, 6:40 pm

Define "the stage" - there's a whole generator of "performers" now for whom the stage is the entire media world. They have a TV show they are predominantly known for but they also (deliberately) get in to fights on twitter, pretend to be idiots, have high profile relationships, get photographed falling out of clubs at 3am, sell photo rights and interviews about their most personal moments. On this side of the Atlantic i've worked with many "reality celebs" and can assure you that it very much is a performance they're putting on and that they instinctively switch in to character any time anyone is watching. I've had proper grown up conversations with famous "airheads" who seconds later have been photographed falling over in stupid shoes, all because they understand that their entire brand (and thus livelihood) is dependent on them performing the part of the character they have become known for.

Uri was a good 20 years ahead of the bulk of television celebrities in realising that he didn't have a 5min act but actually has to provide a round-the-clock-on-demand "performance" of Uri Geller in order to turn that initial 5min TV appearance in to a 35 year career.
"Ingenious" - Ben Brantley: New York Times

thomasmoorecreative

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Geller stoops to a new low

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 27th, 2014, 8:06 pm

Reply to Damian: Daniel Day Lewis does not drop character during production.
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