Shin Lim performance
- Travis
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Shin Lim performance
I know this young man's burned himself a couple of times with items he's released in the community, but he does some pretty cool things in this live card performance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfmKMV_a0nw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfmKMV_a0nw
- Richard Kaufman
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Re: Shin Lim performance
If I recall correctly video clips with dubious editing and tricks with dubious origins.
I saw him perform a couple of years ago in London and he has great technical skill and technique, and he struck me as being a pleasant guy. I doubt he will repeat his errors.
I saw him perform a couple of years ago in London and he has great technical skill and technique, and he struck me as being a pleasant guy. I doubt he will repeat his errors.
- Travis
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Re: Shin Lim performance
Yes, I meant it figuratively. That is, he's released some items that people complained were misrepresented.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
he lectured and performed at Taom. his magic seems to be designed for a web cam - visual, the moment often occurs at the time of the magic, the method is often the effect, speed valued over subtlety, and a lot of [censored] getting dropped behind a table. He also fails to connect at all with the audience - they may as well not be in the room.
he taught a backwards version of one of the hofsinzer problems and never mentioned hofsinzer. And he spent a lot of time on twisting the aces (also without attribution). he made the trick harder, but added nothing to it that you wouldn't appreciate unless you knew the original trick.
magic for magicians
he has clearly spent a lot of time working on his moves - he can move cards very fast, but he seems to lack any understanding of the psychology of humans or deception in general.
he taught a backwards version of one of the hofsinzer problems and never mentioned hofsinzer. And he spent a lot of time on twisting the aces (also without attribution). he made the trick harder, but added nothing to it that you wouldn't appreciate unless you knew the original trick.
magic for magicians
he has clearly spent a lot of time working on his moves - he can move cards very fast, but he seems to lack any understanding of the psychology of humans or deception in general.
Brad Henderson magician in Austin Texas
Re: Shin Lim performance
REally?
That performance was VERY sloppy - some quite basic technical mistakes and a lack of care over his lighting means that the dirty stuff was painfully visible at times.
As others have pointed out it was also pure you-tube magic; No wonder, no "magic", no engagement - essentially a display of juggling that happened to use cards.
That performance was VERY sloppy - some quite basic technical mistakes and a lack of care over his lighting means that the dirty stuff was painfully visible at times.
As others have pointed out it was also pure you-tube magic; No wonder, no "magic", no engagement - essentially a display of juggling that happened to use cards.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
Did not find this performance of any particular interest. I agree with Tom Moore that it was lacking in many ways.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
I would think that the 700 members of the audience in Granada, Spain last Saturday who rose to give Shin Lim a standing ovation would most probably not agree with some of the previous comments.
-Marty
-Marty
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Re: Shin Lim performance
shim has several young magicians following him. They look up to him. The blind leading the blind.
much of shim's work is only interesting if you are a magician who knows how the tricks are supposed to work - and value being " fooled " with technique, over being moved by magic. (you know when he does something - even if you dont know/care exactly what it was.)
Magicians have weird value systems. Creating a trick magicians like means you have created a trick that appeals to magicians - that doesn't mean it is good magic.
I have been a supporter of the flourish movement - buy in spite of claims made by well known experts have yet to hear of someone being paid to do a show of flourishing for real people. I have seen them worshipped by magicians.
I have received many standing ovations - from real people as well as magicians. should that mean anything?
I don't think so - and I doubt any person here would grant my words greater authority because I have.
much of shim's work is only interesting if you are a magician who knows how the tricks are supposed to work - and value being " fooled " with technique, over being moved by magic. (you know when he does something - even if you dont know/care exactly what it was.)
Magicians have weird value systems. Creating a trick magicians like means you have created a trick that appeals to magicians - that doesn't mean it is good magic.
I have been a supporter of the flourish movement - buy in spite of claims made by well known experts have yet to hear of someone being paid to do a show of flourishing for real people. I have seen them worshipped by magicians.
I have received many standing ovations - from real people as well as magicians. should that mean anything?
I don't think so - and I doubt any person here would grant my words greater authority because I have.
Brad Henderson magician in Austin Texas
Re: Shin Lim performance
I would think that the 700 members of the audience in Granada, Spain last Saturday who rose to give Shin Lim a standing ovation would most probably not agree with some of the previous comments.
-Marty
I refer you to any boyband of your choice - every night 10,000plus people jump to their feet and give them a standing ovation but that doesn't mean they're good musicians.... it simply means they are doing /something/ that the audience craves. In the case of most boybands its "looks pretty and acts like a bit of a rebel" rather than being properly talented musicians.
i don't doubt people are provoked in to a reaction to Shins performance; but that doesn't mean he's a magician (people do applaud jugglers you know) who entertained them with "magic" or that they were reacting and responding to the performance elements we might hope or assume them to being.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
MartinKaplan wrote:I would think that the 700 members of the audience in Granada, Spain last Saturday who rose to give Shin Lim a standing ovation would most probably not agree with some of the previous comments.
-Marty
Ahem.
- Travis
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Re: Shin Lim performance
I agree with just about all of the comments here. I certainly wasn't putting this forth as brilliant routining. Simply noting some cool visuals.
- Richard Kaufman
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Re: Shin Lim performance
I'll be the one to disagree. I've worked Chinese conventions where you're expected to do close-up magic on stage for an audience of thousands (you can hear how big the theater is here). You can do it one of two ways: in pantomime to music or as a talking act. If you are doing pure close-up then everyone is watching your hands on the large screen. Not a single person in the audience can see the tabletop--only the screen.
If you're doing a talking act, then the camera has to cut between medium shots of your hands and upper body, and then close-ups. If you're doing a silent close-up act, then the camera is free to focus entirely on the hands.
One that that no one has mentioned is that because of the enormous amount of editing, special effects, and stooging that are used for close-up magic performed on Chinese TV, the point of having the camera never leave your hands is an important one--it establishes that what you are doing for that audience is not "faked." In their eyes, that makes you an artist.
Shin has chosen to let his hands do the "visual talking," performing purely visual magic to music. I would say from the audience reaction that he was successful in this style of performance, and the fact that he keeps getting asked back to China to do more of this is telling.
If you're doing a talking act, then the camera has to cut between medium shots of your hands and upper body, and then close-ups. If you're doing a silent close-up act, then the camera is free to focus entirely on the hands.
One that that no one has mentioned is that because of the enormous amount of editing, special effects, and stooging that are used for close-up magic performed on Chinese TV, the point of having the camera never leave your hands is an important one--it establishes that what you are doing for that audience is not "faked." In their eyes, that makes you an artist.
Shin has chosen to let his hands do the "visual talking," performing purely visual magic to music. I would say from the audience reaction that he was successful in this style of performance, and the fact that he keeps getting asked back to China to do more of this is telling.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
? not hand-miming some tricks with pre-recorded stunt hands and special effects for video display?
why risk a slight when an edit or b/a would work? seems an opportunity to do the Georges Melies stuff for audiences
why risk a slight when an edit or b/a would work? seems an opportunity to do the Georges Melies stuff for audiences
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time
Re: Shin Lim performance
His lack of patter and choice of a single locked camera shot is not the basis of my dislike - i can point you to plenty of performers who convey way more "magic" and "story" with exactly the same restrictions; i don't like it simply because it's not done at all well.
I fully understand the massive cultural difference and expectations between magic in "asia" (which is generally obsessed with technical skill, repetition & flaring), Europe (which is generally obsessed with more narrative and "arty" concepts) and America (which is generally obsessed with a "showman" centric concepts) and know that each has its own merits and restrictions. The fact remains though that he doesn't have art, he doesn't display the personality to be a showman and his technical skills are (in this video) considerably lower than his routine suggests he thinks them to be. For someone who has built his reputation on locked-off-camera-shot video's he also seems to lack some very basic understanding of viewing angles and technical quirks of a camera. That same collection of demonstrations and restrictions could so easily be considerably better just be being presented with a little more care.
I fully understand the massive cultural difference and expectations between magic in "asia" (which is generally obsessed with technical skill, repetition & flaring), Europe (which is generally obsessed with more narrative and "arty" concepts) and America (which is generally obsessed with a "showman" centric concepts) and know that each has its own merits and restrictions. The fact remains though that he doesn't have art, he doesn't display the personality to be a showman and his technical skills are (in this video) considerably lower than his routine suggests he thinks them to be. For someone who has built his reputation on locked-off-camera-shot video's he also seems to lack some very basic understanding of viewing angles and technical quirks of a camera. That same collection of demonstrations and restrictions could so easily be considerably better just be being presented with a little more care.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
Tom Moore wrote: The fact remains though that he doesn't have art, he doesn't display the personality to be a showman and his technical skills are (in this video) considerably lower than his routine suggests he thinks them to be. For someone who has built his reputation on locked-off-camera-shot video's he also seems to lack some very basic understanding of viewing angles and technical quirks of a camera.
^ This.
I'm pretty sure no consensus is needed on the relative merits of Shin Lim's act, but it's nice to see your reasons for it as tend to share your view.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
That's a lovely, technical, description of some bloke throwing a load of cards around that seem to have black backs. He also seems to do a lot of waffling and wiffling about with his hands, prior to and after each phase. Oh, and during, too, he woofles in each phase.
Shin Lim's hand movements in phonetics: pnflgbtflbgtssssdgfcdlv.
Was anyone taken with that set? Really?
Shin Lim's hand movements in phonetics: pnflgbtflbgtssssdgfcdlv.
Was anyone taken with that set? Really?
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Re: Shin Lim performance
Tom Pilling wrote:
Was anyone taken with that set? Really?
Just the audience, apparently.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
It will be interesting to hear from those who purchase 52 Shades of Red, the latest product from Shin Lim.
Re: Shin Lim performance
Brad Jeffers wrote:It will be interesting to hear from those who purchase 52 Shades of Red, the latest product from Shin Lim.
That's an easy one.
There will be a legion of disapointed kids who buy the trick, only to find out that it's impossible for them to do anywhere but on a dark stage with audience 20 feet away and professional lighting overhead.
Such is marketed magic and the magicians who market it.
Doesn't make Shin any less a performer.....just a typical magician-marketer of impossible to perform magic tricks.
I can see the first line of the instructions, or the first bit of audio on the DVD - "first, establish your performance space in a pitch black room lit only by a single candle......."
I guess a guy has to make a living.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
There is a lot of black art stuff done in the performance video (linked to in the original post) that would not be practical, but I'm not sure any of that is what's being sold on the 52 Shades dvd. The main things seem to be the color changing cards and the color changing card box. Perhaps Shin Lim has devised methods for these two effects that are superior to the multitude that have come before. We'll see.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
I've done a lot of work with black art. Shin's choices reveal a lack of understanding of its basic principles, let alone previous work done in the field.
the big issue with cards on mats is that edge - so hard to mask it even when you know the correct materials to use.
the big issue with cards on mats is that edge - so hard to mask it even when you know the correct materials to use.
Brad Henderson magician in Austin Texas
- Michael Kamen
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Re: Shin Lim performance
I loved what he did, presuming the video reflection was not edited film. Visual magic, pure artistry, whether one happens to like the particular art work or not. An excellent example of magician's craft of illusion. No pretense. Little reliance on character acting. Lovely. And I for one did not see any detractive flashing.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
Someone who saw the Woody Allen movie What's Up Tiger Lily should take this video and add their own voice-over to hilarious effect.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
Pete McCabe wrote:Someone who saw the Woody Allen movie What's Up Tiger Lily should take this video and add their own voice-over to hilarious effect.
Or perhaps use the clip as a drinking game that's triggered every time he flashes or makes one of those amusing (and often awkward) "magical gestures".
Re: Shin Lim performance
Tom Pilling wrote:That's a lovely, technical, description of some bloke throwing a load of cards around that seem to have...
I'm not sure I think it is fair to deconstruct another performers' act in such specific detail on an open forum. While it isn't a lot more obfuscated to say "black art", it at least make it a tad more general and vague.
I see some flaws in this performance, foremost a somewhat crude reliance on the principle just mentioned. But he is out there working it, rather than just performing for the mirror at home. And he isn't relying on the proved and tried classics, but is venturing out on unknown terrain with material that very well could fail. That takes both guts and vision. For that effort alone, I think he should be commended rather than critizised.
Re: Shin Lim performance
Here is the trailer for the forthcoming 52 Shades DVD release: -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZWo6EJlKJs
Andrew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZWo6EJlKJs
Andrew
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Re: Shin Lim performance
Tom Stone wrote:Tom Pilling wrote:That's a lovely, technical, description of some bloke throwing a load of cards around that seem to have...
I'm not sure I think it is fair to deconstruct another performers' act in such specific detail on an open forum. While it isn't a lot more obfuscated to say "black art", it at least make it a tad more general and vague.
I see some flaws in this performance, foremost a somewhat crude reliance on the principle just mentioned. But he is out there working it, rather than just performing for the mirror at home. And he isn't relying on the proved and tried classics, but is venturing out on unknown terrain with material that very well could fail. That takes both guts and vision. For that effort alone, I think he should be commended rather than critizised.
I take that point, in use of terms, Tom, and am suitably admonished.
A while ago, when I read your chapter on 'The Forbidden Palm', in Maelstrom, I was very interested in your thoughts on using this principle in close up card magic. I do not, however, feel inclined to commend Shin Lim for the reason you state, as for me it did not work at all. But, as was pointed out above, the audience seemed to like it, so what do I know?
Re: Shin Lim performance
I think it's worth pointing out that "live" in the theatre this effect would play differently simply because an audience watching this on a screen would be seeing a low-res, ghost-filled, dimmer image than we are seeing here as we are getting a high quality feed from the camera whereas projector screens on stage are notoriously low-quality so some of the issues we are seeing would be invisible to a live audience.
I'd also take exception to the claim that he's out there doing "new" stuff, there's plenty of people using these EXACT methods and performance situations who are managing to do it without flashing & much cleaner.
Henry Evans has a whole lecture on using BA in close-up card tricks to perform these sorts of impossible switches and changes, I've sat in the front row watching him live and couldn't see a thing because he was using the right materials and had the right grasp of stagecraft and physics to enable him to make invisible things true,y invisible when he wanted them to be.
I'd also take exception to the claim that he's out there doing "new" stuff, there's plenty of people using these EXACT methods and performance situations who are managing to do it without flashing & much cleaner.
Henry Evans has a whole lecture on using BA in close-up card tricks to perform these sorts of impossible switches and changes, I've sat in the front row watching him live and couldn't see a thing because he was using the right materials and had the right grasp of stagecraft and physics to enable him to make invisible things true,y invisible when he wanted them to be.
Re: Shin Lim performance
Tom Stone wrote:I'm not sure I think it is fair to deconstruct another performers' act in such specific detail on an open forum. While it isn't a lot more obfuscated to say "black art", it at least make it a tad more general and vague.
We are permitted by the board owner to discuss methods here.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
mrgoat wrote:Tom Stone wrote:I'm not sure I think it is fair to deconstruct another performers' act in such specific detail on an open forum. While it isn't a lot more obfuscated to say "black art", it at least make it a tad more general and vague.
We are permitted by the board owner to discuss methods here.
That's a pretty weird statement. Why would his "permission" matter in regard to material he has no hand in?
Re: Shin Lim performance
Richard Kaufman wrote:I encourage discussions of method here.
If you were to post scanned pages of "Japan Ingenious" to encourage discussions about the material, I would think most would approve.
If I or anyone else would do it, I think you would be less encouraging.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
Japan Ingenious is a copyrighted work.
Discussion of the methods in a video posted by the artist himself is fair game.
I assume, Tom, that you can see the difference.
Discussion of the methods in a video posted by the artist himself is fair game.
I assume, Tom, that you can see the difference.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
Richard Kaufman wrote:Japan Ingenious is a copyrighted work.
Discussion of the methods in a video posted by the artist himself is fair game.
I assume, Tom, that you can see the difference.
I see that work that you have had a hand in is treated differently. Don't think you would approve even with rewritten descriptions and new illustrations
I think it is fully fair to say that so-and-so makes use of black art in a good/bad/average manner. Less fair to go into details on exactly what the black art consist of and details in the specific handling. If it is on video, it is fully enough to refer to the video itself for the specifics.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
Tom, we're discussing an online video - apparently used with permission.
This is not about scanned pages posted for review.
I suspect that Richard would be okay with someone posting their own videos of their performances of tricks from his books and discussions of those videos.
This is not about scanned pages posted for review.
I suspect that Richard would be okay with someone posting their own videos of their performances of tricks from his books and discussions of those videos.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time
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Re: Shin Lim performance
In fact, Charles Hsu posted a video performance of almost every trick in 5x5 Japan. I had no problem with that. Conversations which take place as a result of that are also not a problem.
Tom, that has nothing whatsoever to do, and cannot be compared with, a book that consists of descriptions. What is mysterious about that?
Performance video does not equal video or printed explanations.
Tom, that has nothing whatsoever to do, and cannot be compared with, a book that consists of descriptions. What is mysterious about that?
Performance video does not equal video or printed explanations.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
Jonathan Townsend wrote:Tom, we're discussing an online video - apparently used with permission.
Yes, all but one person is discussing an online video.
While one person felt the need to take it even further and posted unnecessary and gratitious details in a derogatory tone.
I have a piece out on YouTube titled "Benson Burner". I don't mind if people post about black art and servante work in connection to that piece, as long as it is about the general techniques.
However, going into details like -"...he's just some bloke stuffing balls into black photo canisters that he then throw into some hidden shelf behind his table while he is waffling and wiffling about with his hands. Is anyone really taken by that?"
What would be the point of posting something like that? Why would anyone want to publish the specific details of someone else's work while simultaneously saying how bad it is - except to boast oneself on someone else's expense. I don't get it and I don't like it, and I see no reason to approve of it.
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Re: Shin Lim performance
Gratuitous? Charming, Mr Stone.
I don't quite understand the leap from my minor faux pas to ejaculating comparisons with sharing scans of published works. I must be too stupid to see the logic there; all I see is reductio ad absurdum.
Oh, and being "taken with" and "taken by" are two distinct ideas. The former implies a liking or attraction, the latter implies... well, various things.
And why on earth would anyone use the same language I did to describe your Benson Burner routine? And there is nothing wiffly, nor wuffly about your handling. That's ridiculous.
Actually, I like elegant card handling: Vallerino is a pleasure to watch, for instance. But I really disliked the wiffly, woofly, wuffly finger exercises involved in this presentation. It seems to me that you apply very high standards to your own modus operandi, so why commend something so full of holes? Because it wasn't a classic of magic? Really? Would you be satisfied by that routine? Would you structure it that way, in terms of method?
I don't quite understand the leap from my minor faux pas to ejaculating comparisons with sharing scans of published works. I must be too stupid to see the logic there; all I see is reductio ad absurdum.
Oh, and being "taken with" and "taken by" are two distinct ideas. The former implies a liking or attraction, the latter implies... well, various things.
And why on earth would anyone use the same language I did to describe your Benson Burner routine? And there is nothing wiffly, nor wuffly about your handling. That's ridiculous.
Actually, I like elegant card handling: Vallerino is a pleasure to watch, for instance. But I really disliked the wiffly, woofly, wuffly finger exercises involved in this presentation. It seems to me that you apply very high standards to your own modus operandi, so why commend something so full of holes? Because it wasn't a classic of magic? Really? Would you be satisfied by that routine? Would you structure it that way, in terms of method?
Last edited by Tom Pilling on November 30th, 2013, 11:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.